Exactly, so why do we need a pass rushing difference maker on the D-Line? I think we are more than capable of being a good defensive team with a D-Line of Hamilton, Brown and Robertson-Harris. I totally believe we need to focus on getting another OLB. Right now, we just have Allen and Chaisson with virtually nothing behind them. Allen is coming off injury and Chaisson was a huge disappointment in 2020. I don't see a pass rushing difference maker on the D-Line in this draft anyway.

To me, Guy's name says it all. He's just a guy. He's never had more than 4.5 sacks in a year. He's not a pass rushing difference maker. Reader was a NT and he has never had over 2.5 sacks. flgatorsandjags was specifically sighting that we needed a pass rusher on the D-Line, so that is what I was focusing on for current NFL 3-4 teams. Brockers was too inconsistent to call him a pass rushing difference maker. He went from 4.5 sacks in 2017 to 1 in 2018 to 3 in 2019 to 5 in 2020. Not to mention that he had the benefit of playing opposite the best defensive player in the NFL, Aaron Darnold.

You dont know how to judge a players affectivness.  You just look at a sack number.  I want a 3-4 end that is a game changer like a Richard Seymore or a Cameron Heyward.  Since those guys didn't put up double digit stats you don't think those guys were game changer at times?    I feel Barmore has that potential, Barmore can push the pocket, can cause disruption in the passing game, and is good against the run.  Can do it all, none of our guys on the dline has the potential Barmore has

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Barmore had 3 sacks and 3 FFs last year so if you just want to look at the sack number there you go.  Not to mention when we are in 4-3 sets Barmore will play the 3 tech where he might shine even more.

I totally disagree with many of your player assessments as well. You buy into too much hype by the media. I look at a variety of issues with pass rushers, not just sack numbers, but they are a big factor. For example, if a guy has a ton of pressures, but only 1 sack, that tells me he can't finish. As NFL QB's get more mobile and athletic, pressures mean less. You need guys who can finish and DB's that can stick with opposing receivers. 

If you are wanting a Richard Seymour or Cameron Heyward, this is not the draft for you. There is not that type of player in this draft. You can't make someone into something they are not. I just don't see what you see in Barmore and now he has red flags as far as his acceptance of coaching. I'm out on that guy. I just think you are seeing something in him that isn't there.

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Exactly, so why do we need a pass rushing difference maker on the D-Line? I think we are more than capable of being a good defensive team with a D-Line of Hamilton, Brown and Robertson-Harris. I totally believe we need to focus on getting another OLB. Right now, we just have Allen and Chaisson with virtually nothing behind them. Allen is coming off injury and Chaisson was a huge disappointment in 2020. I don't see a pass rushing difference maker on the D-Line in this draft anyway.

To me, Guy's name says it all. He's just a guy. He's never had more than 4.5 sacks in a year. He's not a pass rushing difference maker. Reader was a NT and he has never had over 2.5 sacks. flgatorsandjags was specifically sighting that we needed a pass rusher on the D-Line, so that is what I was focusing on for current NFL 3-4 teams. Brockers was too inconsistent to call him a pass rushing difference maker. He went from 4.5 sacks in 2017 to 1 in 2018 to 3 in 2019 to 5 in 2020. Not to mention that he had the benefit of playing opposite the best defensive player in the NFL, Aaron Darnold.

You are probably the biggest needs drafter on this board.  I'm good with getting a 3-4 OLB as well if he is a better player than Barmore. I just don't think there will be a better defensive player on the board if Barmore is there at 25

No matter what you believe, needs have to count for something or you will continue to have the same issues year after year. Just look at the Colts. They ignored the O-Line year after year and it forced their franchise QB to retire early. A new GM comes in, sees the need and builds their biggest weakness into one of the best units in the NFL. Unfortunately for him, the previous GM ignored the need for so long, that Luck had a myriad of injuries due to his lack of protection by the previous administration and the damage was already done. You have to address needs when you are a 1-15 team. You just have to. When you get to a point of being a playoff or Superbowl team, then you can truly draft BAP regardless of need. Until then, you draft BAP at a position of need or else you will never get better. 

Reaching for a player like Barmore at #25 is not smart. 

You have Barmore way overrated. There are tons of players on offense and defense that are better than him.

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You are probably the biggest needs drafter on this board.  I'm good with getting a 3-4 OLB as well if he is a better player than Barmore. I just don't think there will be a better defensive player on the board if Barmore is there at 25

No matter what you believe, needs have to count for something or you will continue to have the same issues year after year. Just look at the Colts. They ignored the O-Line year after year and it forced their franchise QB to retire early. A new GM comes in, sees the need and builds their biggest weakness into one of the best units in the NFL. Unfortunately for him, the previous GM ignored the need for so long, that Luck had a myriad of injuries due to his lack of protection by the previous administration and the damage was already done. You have to address needs when you are a 1-15 team. You just have to. When you get to a point of being a playoff or Superbowl team, then you can truly draft BAP regardless of need. Until then, you draft BAP at a position of need or else you will never get better. 

Reaching for a player like Barmore at #25 is not smart. 

You have Barmore way overrated. There are tons of players on offense and defense that are better than him.

Admittedly, this is not a strong DL class by any measure.

Depending upon who is left on the board at 25, Barmore may not be a reach.

That said, I would be okay with passing up Barmore at 25 if we got Alim McNeil or Tyler Shelvin later.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

It's funny you listed Tuitt but not Heyward, a guy who has been one of the best dlinman since entering the league.  Not to mention you left off a number of studs who is better than anything we have on the dline.   You are the only person on this board that thinks we are loaded on the dline.  I want a game changer up front if we are able to land one and as does Meyer unless you just think he is lying everytime he puts a emphasis on having a great dline.  You said this draft is what you think the Jags will do and then you said you passed Barmore multiple times because you think our dline is loaded.  I dont think Baalke and Meyer thinks our dline is loaded, if they felt that we wouldn't of tried to land Alualu.  Even if we were able to get Alu I still think they would of tried to upgrade the dline in the draft

Heyward is very good, but he is 31 and coming off his worst season as a pass rusher since 2016 and he has the benefit of playing opposite Tuitt. If you want to add him to the list of great 3-4 pass rushers, go ahead. It still doesn't change my argument. I don't think anyone I left out that is better than what we have. I really like DaVon Hamilton and think he's not being talked about enough. I am expecting a big year from him. Brown is a great run stuffer and we paid Robertson-Smith starter money in free agency. I also believe a scheme switch will greatly benefit Smoot and Costin in particular and Ward is experienced in the system we will run and had 3.0 sacks in 2020 as a part time player with the Ravens. We don't need a difference maker on the D-Line. The Ravens and Packers are in the playoffs almost every year and they generate their pass rush via the OLB position. 

When I say we are loaded at D-Line, I mean we have a lot of depth and we have no glaring weaknesses. I am confident going into the season that we have greatly upgraded the position. I'm way more concerned about the OLB spot. We essentially have Allen and Chaisson and no one else. Allen is coming off injury and Chaisson was a disappointment in 2020. We need at least 3 rotational players who can get to the QB. This is a weakness. 

You are placing way too much emphasis on Barmore. I don't think there is a difference making 3-4 D-Lineman in this draft. I believe you are way over-estimating how good he will be. Have you seen the recent rumors that he doesn't take too well to coaching and that they had some issues with him at Alabama? It was brought up on the draft rumors section of the board by irontrooper83. I read the same article and if it was true, I'd totally take Barmore off my board. If he refuses to be coached, he's not going to be a benefit to the team drafting him. You can't have one guy blowing his assignments, because he refuses to be coached. 

As far as buying into what Meyer and Baalke have been saying about the D-Line, I don't know who is lying and who is telling the truth this time of year. There are so many smokescreens, who knows what is true? I just know that if they follow the BAP model as I see it, this is how I believe they will draft.

Lololol, Hayward has the benefit of Tuitt being on the other side is comical.  Hayward has been one of the best defensive players in the league for a while now and is a better player than Tuitt lol.  The only reason Tuitt's inflated sack number this year is because TJ Watt is next to him, the guy who could of easily been defensive player of the year and arguably the best pass rusher in the league .  And you said star lineman not pass rusher.  You listed Suh as a great pass rusher.  Suh is still a good player but far from the great pass rusher he used to be.

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No matter what you believe, needs have to count for something or you will continue to have the same issues year after year. Just look at the Colts. They ignored the O-Line year after year and it forced their franchise QB to retire early. A new GM comes in, sees the need and builds their biggest weakness into one of the best units in the NFL. Unfortunately for him, the previous GM ignored the need for so long, that Luck had a myriad of injuries due to his lack of protection by the previous administration and the damage was already done. You have to address needs when you are a 1-15 team. You just have to. When you get to a point of being a playoff or Superbowl team, then you can truly draft BAP regardless of need. Until then, you draft BAP at a position of need or else you will never get better. 

Reaching for a player like Barmore at #25 is not smart. 

You have Barmore way overrated. There are tons of players on offense and defense that are better than him.

Admittedly, this is not a strong DL class by any measure.

Depending upon who is left on the board at 25, Barmore may not be a reach.

That said, I would be okay with passing up Barmore at 25 if we got Alim McNeil or Tyler Shelvin later.

Shelvin is your prototypical NT, a totally different player than Barmore.  McNeil as well, he has some pass rush but he is a NT as well, reminds me of Wilfork.  Barmore is a different player than both

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No matter what you believe, needs have to count for something or you will continue to have the same issues year after year. Just look at the Colts. They ignored the O-Line year after year and it forced their franchise QB to retire early. A new GM comes in, sees the need and builds their biggest weakness into one of the best units in the NFL. Unfortunately for him, the previous GM ignored the need for so long, that Luck had a myriad of injuries due to his lack of protection by the previous administration and the damage was already done. You have to address needs when you are a 1-15 team. You just have to. When you get to a point of being a playoff or Superbowl team, then you can truly draft BAP regardless of need. Until then, you draft BAP at a position of need or else you will never get better. 

Reaching for a player like Barmore at #25 is not smart. 

You have Barmore way overrated. There are tons of players on offense and defense that are better than him.

Admittedly, this is not a strong DL class by any measure.

Depending upon who is left on the board at 25, Barmore may not be a reach.

That said, I would be okay with passing up Barmore at 25 if we got Alim McNeil or Tyler Shelvin later.

Where would you play McNeil or Shelvin? They are NT's and don't really factor into the pass rush. Both are really great players, but they are pure run stuffers. We just traded for Malcolm Brown who is exactly the same. You can only play one NT. I just don't know how they fit?

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Admittedly, this is not a strong DL class by any measure.

Depending upon who is left on the board at 25, Barmore may not be a reach.

That said, I would be okay with passing up Barmore at 25 if we got Alim McNeil or Tyler Shelvin later.

Shelvin is your prototypical NT, a totally different player than Barmore.  McNeil as well, he has some pass rush but he is a NT as well, reminds me of Wilfork.  Barmore is a different player than both

I never asserted otherwise.

We are in complete agreement on this point.

I listed those guys because I think they can provide matchup advantages in a 3-4.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Heyward is very good, but he is 31 and coming off his worst season as a pass rusher since 2016 and he has the benefit of playing opposite Tuitt. If you want to add him to the list of great 3-4 pass rushers, go ahead. It still doesn't change my argument. I don't think anyone I left out that is better than what we have. I really like DaVon Hamilton and think he's not being talked about enough. I am expecting a big year from him. Brown is a great run stuffer and we paid Robertson-Smith starter money in free agency. I also believe a scheme switch will greatly benefit Smoot and Costin in particular and Ward is experienced in the system we will run and had 3.0 sacks in 2020 as a part time player with the Ravens. We don't need a difference maker on the D-Line. The Ravens and Packers are in the playoffs almost every year and they generate their pass rush via the OLB position. 

When I say we are loaded at D-Line, I mean we have a lot of depth and we have no glaring weaknesses. I am confident going into the season that we have greatly upgraded the position. I'm way more concerned about the OLB spot. We essentially have Allen and Chaisson and no one else. Allen is coming off injury and Chaisson was a disappointment in 2020. We need at least 3 rotational players who can get to the QB. This is a weakness. 

You are placing way too much emphasis on Barmore. I don't think there is a difference making 3-4 D-Lineman in this draft. I believe you are way over-estimating how good he will be. Have you seen the recent rumors that he doesn't take too well to coaching and that they had some issues with him at Alabama? It was brought up on the draft rumors section of the board by irontrooper83. I read the same article and if it was true, I'd totally take Barmore off my board. If he refuses to be coached, he's not going to be a benefit to the team drafting him. You can't have one guy blowing his assignments, because he refuses to be coached. 

As far as buying into what Meyer and Baalke have been saying about the D-Line, I don't know who is lying and who is telling the truth this time of year. There are so many smokescreens, who knows what is true? I just know that if they follow the BAP model as I see it, this is how I believe they will draft.

Lololol, Hayward has the benefit of Tuitt being on the other side is comical.  Hayward has been one of the best defensive players in the league for a while now and is a better player than Tuitt lol.  The only reason Tuitt's inflated sack number this year is because TJ Watt is next to him, the guy who could of easily been defensive player of the year and arguably the best pass rusher in the league .  And you said star lineman not pass rusher.  You listed Suh as a great pass rusher.  Suh is still a good player but far from the great pass rusher he used to be.

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Admittedly, this is not a strong DL class by any measure.

Depending upon who is left on the board at 25, Barmore may not be a reach.

That said, I would be okay with passing up Barmore at 25 if we got Alim McNeil or Tyler Shelvin later.

Shelvin is your prototypical NT, a totally different player than Barmore.  McNeil as well, he has some pass rush but he is a NT as well, reminds me of Wilfork.  Barmore is a different player than both

You are completely out of your mind. Tuitt is better than Heyward although both are very good. 

As far as Suh, of course he is not the player he once was, but he is still among the best 3-4 pass rushers in the league. 

You still have not addressed the red flag rumors with Barmore being resistant to coaching.

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Shelvin is your prototypical NT, a totally different player than Barmore.  McNeil as well, he has some pass rush but he is a NT as well, reminds me of Wilfork.  Barmore is a different player than both

I never asserted otherwise.

We are in complete agreement on this point.

I listed those guys because I think they can provide matchup advantages in a 3-4.

I don't doubt that they will be great NFL players. I just don't know where they would specifically fit on this team.

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Admittedly, this is not a strong DL class by any measure.

Depending upon who is left on the board at 25, Barmore may not be a reach.

That said, I would be okay with passing up Barmore at 25 if we got Alim McNeil or Tyler Shelvin later.

Where would you play McNeil or Shelvin? They are NT's and don't really factor into the pass rush. Both are really great players, but they are pure run stuffers. We just traded for Malcolm Brown who is exactly the same. You can only play one NT. I just don't know how they fit?

Whether they provide pass rush is besides the point.  To me, even though they are first and foremost run defenders, they can win on run downs.  They can occupy blocks to make the LBs more effective.  That is what I look for mostly in a 3-4 DL.  Any pass rush they can offer besides the occasional pocket push is gravy. 

As a general rule, since we are switching to a 3-4, I believe the NT is the key position to fill.  Marcus Brown can play NT, and you and I both believe Hamilton can too.  But I'd rather overdraft that position to ensure we get it right than to neglect the position and not have anyone who can get the job done.  Without the stud NT, the 3-4 is ineffective. 

Hamilton could move to 3-4 DE and still be effective, and can provide more pass rush than one might think.  A double digit sack guy?  Probably not.  But I think he could get in a guy's face and move him off his spot.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Where would you play McNeil or Shelvin? They are NT's and don't really factor into the pass rush. Both are really great players, but they are pure run stuffers. We just traded for Malcolm Brown who is exactly the same. You can only play one NT. I just don't know how they fit?

Whether they provide pass rush is besides the point.  To me, even though they are first and foremost run defenders, they can win on run downs.  They can occupy blocks to make the LBs more effective.  That is what I look for mostly in a 3-4 DL.  Any pass rush they can offer besides the occasional pocket push is gravy. 

As a general rule, since we are switching to a 3-4, I believe the NT is the key position to fill.  Marcus Brown can play NT, and you and I both believe Hamilton can too.  But I'd rather overdraft that position to ensure we get it right than to neglect the position and not have anyone who can get the job done.  Without the stud NT, the 3-4 is ineffective. 

Hamilton could move to 3-4 DE and still be effective, and can provide more pass rush than one might think.  A double digit sack guy?  Probably not.  But I think he could get in a guy's face and move him off his spot.

Agree with pretty much everything you just said.

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Where would you play McNeil or Shelvin? They are NT's and don't really factor into the pass rush. Both are really great players, but they are pure run stuffers. We just traded for Malcolm Brown who is exactly the same. You can only play one NT. I just don't know how they fit?

Whether they provide pass rush is besides the point.  To me, even though they are first and foremost run defenders, they can win on run downs.  They can occupy blocks to make the LBs more effective.  That is what I look for mostly in a 3-4 DL.  Any pass rush they can offer besides the occasional pocket push is gravy. 

As a general rule, since we are switching to a 3-4, I believe the NT is the key position to fill.  Marcus Brown can play NT, and you and I both believe Hamilton can too.  But I'd rather overdraft that position to ensure we get it right than to neglect the position and not have anyone who can get the job done.  Without the stud NT, the 3-4 is ineffective. 

Hamilton could move to 3-4 DE and still be effective, and can provide more pass rush than one might think.  A double digit sack guy?  Probably not.  But I think he could get in a guy's face and move him off his spot.

I believe Hamilton will have around 5-6 sacks in a full season which would be very good for a 3-4 DE. We already know he is a good run defender based on his small, but effective time as a starter in 2020. 

If you draft a guy like McNeil or Shelvin and you have Brown and Hamilton in the other starting spots, why did we spend so much on Roy Roberston Harris? If he's not a starter, we have $14 million in dead cap money sitting on the bench in 2021 and $10 million in dead cap space in 2022. This is why I was so against hiring Baalke as GM in the first place. He did this in San Francisco and put them in cap hell.

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Lololol, Hayward has the benefit of Tuitt being on the other side is comical.  Hayward has been one of the best defensive players in the league for a while now and is a better player than Tuitt lol.  The only reason Tuitt's inflated sack number this year is because TJ Watt is next to him, the guy who could of easily been defensive player of the year and arguably the best pass rusher in the league .  And you said star lineman not pass rusher.  You listed Suh as a great pass rusher.  Suh is still a good player but far from the great pass rusher he used to be.

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Shelvin is your prototypical NT, a totally different player than Barmore.  McNeil as well, he has some pass rush but he is a NT as well, reminds me of Wilfork.  Barmore is a different player than both

You are completely out of your mind. Tuitt is better than Heyward although both are very good. 

As far as Suh, of course he is not the player he once was, but he is still among the best 3-4 pass rushers in the league. 

You still have not addressed the red flag rumors with Barmore being resistant to coaching.

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I never asserted otherwise.

We are in complete agreement on this point.

I listed those guys because I think they can provide matchup advantages in a 3-4.

I don't doubt that they will be great NFL players. I just don't know where they would specifically fit on this team.

Lol, there is a reason one is a multiple 1st team All Pro and one has never made a Pro Bowl.  Heyward has been one of the best defensive in the league for some time now.  Tuitt has the best pass rusher in the game next to him

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You are completely out of your mind. Tuitt is better than Heyward although both are very good. 

As far as Suh, of course he is not the player he once was, but he is still among the best 3-4 pass rushers in the league. 

You still have not addressed the red flag rumors with Barmore being resistant to coaching.

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I don't doubt that they will be great NFL players. I just don't know where they would specifically fit on this team.

Lol, there is a reason one is a multiple 1st team All Pro and one has never made a Pro Bowl.  Heyward has been one of the best defensive in the league for some time now.  Tuitt has the best pass rusher in the game next to him

That is your opinion. Are you gonna address the Barmore red flags?

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Whether they provide pass rush is besides the point.  To me, even though they are first and foremost run defenders, they can win on run downs.  They can occupy blocks to make the LBs more effective.  That is what I look for mostly in a 3-4 DL.  Any pass rush they can offer besides the occasional pocket push is gravy. 

As a general rule, since we are switching to a 3-4, I believe the NT is the key position to fill.  Marcus Brown can play NT, and you and I both believe Hamilton can too.  But I'd rather overdraft that position to ensure we get it right than to neglect the position and not have anyone who can get the job done.  Without the stud NT, the 3-4 is ineffective. 

Hamilton could move to 3-4 DE and still be effective, and can provide more pass rush than one might think.  A double digit sack guy?  Probably not.  But I think he could get in a guy's face and move him off his spot.

I believe Hamilton will have around 5-6 sacks in a full season which would be very good for a 3-4 DE. We already know he is a good run defender based on his small, but effective time as a starter in 2020. 

If you draft a guy like McNeil or Shelvin and you have Brown and Hamilton in the other starting spots, why did we spend so much on Roy Roberston Harris? If he's not a starter, we have $14 million in dead cap money sitting on the bench in 2021 and $10 million in dead cap space in 2022. This is why I was so against hiring Baalke as GM in the first place. He did this in San Francisco and put them in cap hell.

Just because RRH won't be starting doesn't mean he's just going to be sitting on the bench.  You need a fresh affective rotation on the dline.  He will get his minutes

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I believe Hamilton will have around 5-6 sacks in a full season which would be very good for a 3-4 DE. We already know he is a good run defender based on his small, but effective time as a starter in 2020. 

If you draft a guy like McNeil or Shelvin and you have Brown and Hamilton in the other starting spots, why did we spend so much on Roy Roberston Harris? If he's not a starter, we have $14 million in dead cap money sitting on the bench in 2021 and $10 million in dead cap space in 2022. This is why I was so against hiring Baalke as GM in the first place. He did this in San Francisco and put them in cap hell.

Just because RRH won't be starting doesn't mean he's just going to be sitting on the bench.  You need a fresh affective rotation on the dline.  He will get his minutes

You don't pay that much for a part time starter. That is dumb. Although it shouldn't be surprising. That's what Baalke did in San Francisco. He overpaid so-so players and they ended up having to get rid of talented players to get back under the cap.

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Whether they provide pass rush is besides the point.  To me, even though they are first and foremost run defenders, they can win on run downs.  They can occupy blocks to make the LBs more effective.  That is what I look for mostly in a 3-4 DL.  Any pass rush they can offer besides the occasional pocket push is gravy. 

As a general rule, since we are switching to a 3-4, I believe the NT is the key position to fill.  Marcus Brown can play NT, and you and I both believe Hamilton can too.  But I'd rather overdraft that position to ensure we get it right than to neglect the position and not have anyone who can get the job done.  Without the stud NT, the 3-4 is ineffective. 

Hamilton could move to 3-4 DE and still be effective, and can provide more pass rush than one might think.  A double digit sack guy?  Probably not.  But I think he could get in a guy's face and move him off his spot.

I believe Hamilton will have around 5-6 sacks in a full season which would be very good for a 3-4 DE. We already know he is a good run defender based on his small, but effective time as a starter in 2020. 

If you draft a guy like McNeil or Shelvin and you have Brown and Hamilton in the other starting spots, why did we spend so much on Roy Roberston Harris? If he's not a starter, we have $14 million in dead cap money sitting on the bench in 2021 and $10 million in dead cap space in 2022. This is why I was so against hiring Baalke as GM in the first place. He did this in San Francisco and put them in cap hell.

Aside from some bad drafting and unfortunate events/retirements, I don't know that cap mismanagement doomed the Baalke 49ers.

One of the best players in the league, Patrick Willis, inexplicably retired in the prime of his career.

Another stud, Aldon Smith, developed major off field problems and he eventually got suspended and jailed.

Another LB retired before playing a down.

He and Harbaugh couldn't get along and Harbaugh left to coach Michigan.

Then came the whole Kaepernick thing.

That combination of events would have hurt any team and any GM.

As for why they paid so much for RRH...I don't know.  I would think he starts for us at that salary.  Of course, they franchised Cam Robinson too, so there's that.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Just because RRH won't be starting doesn't mean he's just going to be sitting on the bench.  You need a fresh affective rotation on the dline.  He will get his minutes

You don't pay that much for a part time starter. That is dumb. Although it shouldn't be surprising. That's what Baalke did in San Francisco. He overpaid so-so players and they ended up having to get rid of talented players to get back under the cap.

If he can be a difference maker on the dline I have no problem with it.  We still have the most cap space in the league and he's essentially on a 2 year deal if need be

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