The vaccine does not prevent spread. That should adjust the rationale that you are protect people by getting it.

That's not entirely true either based on what they are saying about the reduction in viral load being significantly quicker in a vaccinated vs. unvaccinated individual

Yes, the viral load carried by the vaccinated averaged 2 days less than the unvaccinated. I can't remember how that stacked up with convalescent patients. 

Comparing SARS-CoV-2 natural immunity to vaccine-induced immunity: reinfections versus breakthrough infections | medRxiv

“The natural immune protection that develops after a SARS-CoV-2 infection offers considerably more of a shield against the Delta variant of the pandemic coronavirus than two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, according to a large Israeli study that some scientists wish came with a ‘Don’t try this at home’ label,” the Scientific American reported Thursday. “The newly released data show people who once had a SARS-CoV-2 infection were much less likely than vaccinated people to get Delta, develop symptoms from it, or become hospitalized with serious COVID-19.”

Put another way, vaccinated individuals were 27 times more likely to get a symptomatic COVID infection than those with natural immunity from COVID.

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Help me out here.  The vaccine does not prevent anyone from getting the virus.  It does not kill the virus either.  So how does not getting the vaccine prolong the virus?

If enough people get vaccinated we could achieve herd immunity within the population. It's the same effect that makes small pox and polio less of a threat than they used to be. The virus has now mutated into variants, so it's more difficult, but still possible. Not getting the vaccine allows it to continue to propagate. Same problem we have today with the various flu virus variants.

Not true. At all.

Polio and small pox were actual vaccines. ACTUAL vaccines. Dead virus that made you immune.

This THING just makes you less sick and you STILL spread the virus.

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Help me out here.  The vaccine does not prevent anyone from getting the virus.  It does not kill the virus either.  So how does not getting the vaccine prolong the virus?

If enough people get vaccinated we could achieve herd immunity within the population. It's the same effect that makes small pox and polio less of a threat than they used to be. The virus has now mutated into variants, so it's more difficult, but still possible. Not getting the vaccine allows it to continue to propagate. Same problem we have today with the various flu virus variants.

Have you heard of animal reservoirs? 

Animal reservoirs of SARS-CoV-2: calculable COVID-19 risk for older adults from animal to human transmission - PubMed (nih.gov)

I think herd immunity is off the table. 

The coronavirus is rife in common US deer (nature.com)

One-third of white-tailed deer in the north-eastern United States have antibodies against SARS-CoV-2 — a sign that they have been infected with the virus.

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That's not entirely true either based on what they are saying about the reduction in viral load being significantly quicker in a vaccinated vs. unvaccinated individual

Yes, the viral load carried by the vaccinated averaged 2 days less than the unvaccinated. I can't remember how that stacked up with convalescent patients. 

Comparing SARS-CoV-2 natural immunity to vaccine-induced immunity: reinfections versus breakthrough infections | medRxiv

“The natural immune protection that develops after a SARS-CoV-2 infection offers considerably more of a shield against the Delta variant of the pandemic coronavirus than two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, according to a large Israeli study that some scientists wish came with a ‘Don’t try this at home’ label,” the Scientific American reported Thursday. “The newly released data show people who once had a SARS-CoV-2 infection were much less likely than vaccinated people to get Delta, develop symptoms from it, or become hospitalized with serious COVID-19.”

Put another way, vaccinated individuals were 27 times more likely to get a symptomatic COVID infection than those with natural immunity from COVID.

The Israeli study contradicts some previous studies and has yet to be peer reviewed. The CDC's study was more consistent with previous studies although obviously new data can impact that

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/...ction.html

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I'm condescending. That means I talk down to you.

If enough people get vaccinated we could achieve herd immunity within the population. It's the same effect that makes small pox and polio less of a threat than they used to be. The virus has now mutated into variants, so it's more difficult, but still possible. Not getting the vaccine allows it to continue to propagate. Same problem we have today with the various flu virus variants.

Not true. At all.

Polio and small pox were actual vaccines. ACTUAL vaccines. Dead virus that made you immune.

This THING just makes you less sick and you STILL spread the virus.

You're spreading misinformation. Vaccine technology has changed but the modality is the same regardless of the technique. Build natural immunity so the body can fight the infection. Today's vaccines are safer but older ones and some current ones use inactive or live attenuated viruses to trigger the body's immune system. The Covid vaccine is every bit a vaccine.

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I'm condescending. That means I talk down to you.

Marley, you calling COVID-19 political in the football forum kind of reaffirms our skepticism of the vaccine due to political reasons.

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It's the CDC that is out of line with the other studies. As soon as you start looking at data outside stuff being published by the major institutions in the US, it all says the same thing.

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Not true. At all.

Polio and small pox were actual vaccines. ACTUAL vaccines. Dead virus that made you immune.

This THING just makes you less sick and you STILL spread the virus.

You're spreading misinformation. Vaccine technology has changed but the modality is the same regardless of the technique. Build natural immunity so the body can fight the infection. Today's vaccines are safer but older ones and some current ones use inactive or live attenuated viruses to trigger the body's immune system. The Covid vaccine is every bit a vaccine.

No.. it's not.

A vaccine, by definition, is a dead virus that allows your body to create antibodies.

This THING tells your cells to not allow the spike protein to infiltrate cells... yet they still do. People are still infected - still spreading. It doesn't kill anything.

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Population-level COVID-19 mortality risk for non-elderly individuals overall and for nonelderly individuals without underlying diseases in pandemic epicenters

NOTE: This preprint reports new research that has not been certified by peer review and should not be used to guide clinical practice.
2

ABSTRACT

OBJECTIVE: To provide estimates of the relative risk of COVID-19 death in people <65 years old versus older individuals in the general population, the absolute risk of COVID-19 death at the population level during the first epidemic wave, and the proportion of COVID-19 deaths in non-elderly people without underlying diseases in epicenters of the pandemic.

ELIGIBLE DATA: Countries and US states with at least 800 COVID-19 deaths as of April 24, 2020 and with information on the number of deaths in people with age <65. Data were available for 11 European countries (Belgium, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, UK), Canada, and 12 US states (California, Connecticut, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, New Jersey and New York) We also examined available data on COVID-19 deaths in people with age <65 and no underlying diseases. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURESroportion of COVID-19 deaths in people <65 years old; relative risk of COVID-19 death in people <65 versus ≥65 years old; absolute risk of COVID-19 death in people <65 and in those ≥80 years old in the general population as of May 1, 2020; absolute COVID-19 death risk expressed as equivalent of death risk from driving a motor vehicle.

RESULTS: Individuals with age <65 account for 4.8-9.3% of all COVID-19 deaths in 10 European countries and Canada, 13.0% in the UK, and 7.8-23.9% in the US locations. People <65 years old had 36- to 84-fold lower risk of COVID-19 death than those ≥65 years old in 10 European countries and Canada and 14- to 56-fold lower risk in UK and US locations. The absolute risk of COVID-19 death as of May 1, 2020 for It is made available under a CC-BY-NC-ND 4.0 International license. (which was not certified by peer review) is the author/funder, who has granted medRxiv a license to display the preprint in perpetuity. medRxiv preprint doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/2020.04.05.20054361; this version posted May 5, 2020. The copyright holder for this preprint 3 people <65 years old ranged from 6 (Canada) to 249 per million (New York City). The absolute risk of COVID-19 death for people ≥80 years old ranged from 0.3 (Florida) to 10.6 per thousand (New York). The COVID-19 death risk in people <65 years old during the period of fatalities from the epidemic was equivalent to the death risk from driving between 13 and 101 miles per day for 11 countries and 6 states, and was higher (equivalent to the death risk from driving 143-668 miles per day) for 6 other states and the UK. People <65 years old without underlying predisposing conditions accounted for only 0.7-2.6% of all COVID-19 deaths (data available from France, Italy, Netherlands, Sweden, Georgia, and New York City).

CONCLUSIONS: People <65 years old have very small risks of COVID-19 death even in pandemic epicenters and deaths for people <65 years without underlying predisposing conditions are remarkably uncommon. Strategies focusing specifically on protecting high-risk elderly individuals should be considered in managing the pandemic.

And FSG is going to start firing people that don't get the vaccine. Great job.

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If enough people get vaccinated we could achieve herd immunity within the population. It's the same effect that makes small pox and polio less of a threat than they used to be. The virus has now mutated into variants, so it's more difficult, but still possible. Not getting the vaccine allows it to continue to propagate. Same problem we have today with the various flu virus variants.

Not true. At all.

Polio and small pox were actual vaccines. ACTUAL vaccines. Dead virus that made you immune.

This THING just makes you less sick and you STILL spread the virus.

I don’t remember people getting cases of “polio lite” from the vaccine. You either got sick or you didn’t, there was no just not as sick stuff with those vaccines.

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What in the Wide Wide World of Sports is agoin' on here???

You're spreading misinformation. Vaccine technology has changed but the modality is the same regardless of the technique. Build natural immunity so the body can fight the infection. Today's vaccines are safer but older ones and some current ones use inactive or live attenuated viruses to trigger the body's immune system. The Covid vaccine is every bit a vaccine.

No.. it's not.

A vaccine, by definition, is a dead virus that allows your body to create antibodies.

This THING tells your cells to not allow the spike protein to infiltrate cells... yet they still do. People are still infected - still spreading. It doesn't kill anything.

You must be conflating what a vaccine is to what a targeted drug treatment does...

The purpose for administrating a vaccine is to enhance and bolster an individuals innate/adaptive immune system. Vaccines do not kill/neutralize pathogens directly, your immune system does through various pathways depending on the type of pathogen.

Ideally, what happens is you want the individual to build long-lasting antibodies from memory B-cells so if said individual comes into contact with the pathogen, they overcome the primary infection faster than the standard 2 week period it takes to mount an immunologic response and develop such antibodies.

Unfortunately, there are many variables in this equation and to keep things in layman's terms without getting into the nitty gritty, pathogens like viruses are VERY GOOD at rapidly evolving and counteracting our natural and synthetic defense mechanisms through mutations. And because of this, our immune systems/medications/vaccines/etc may not provide the similar strength of signal for immune recognition purposes - and if the pathogen completely nullifies the target, our immune systems see it as a NEW foreign pathogen where it gets treated as a primary infection.

To throw a wrench into this situation, individuals who remain unvaccinated have actively ASSISTED the virus and viral mutations as it's continued transmission allowed the virus to potentially mute the effects of our antigenic targets against the virus - hence the occurrence of new variants. 

Again, vaccines aim to reduce TRANSMISSION via enhancing a person's immune system to overcome a pathogen swiftly - but because of what I stated above, we are now presented with such challenges.

Also... You have a misunderstood definition of what a vaccine is or you are purposefully creating a slanted view on what they are. Just as an FYI, there are MANY types of vaccines: live attenuated, inactivated, mRNA, subunit/recombinant/toxoid/etc.

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No.. it's not.

A vaccine, by definition, is a dead virus that allows your body to create antibodies.

This THING tells your cells to not allow the spike protein to infiltrate cells... yet they still do. People are still infected - still spreading. It doesn't kill anything.

You must be conflating what a vaccine is to what a targeted drug treatment does...

The purpose for administrating a vaccine is to enhance and bolster an individuals innate/adaptive immune system. Vaccines do not kill/neutralize pathogens directly, your immune system does through various pathways depending on the type of pathogen.

Ideally, what happens is you want the individual to build long-lasting antibodies from memory B-cells so if said individual comes into contact with the pathogen, they overcome the primary infection faster than the standard 2 week period it takes to mount an immunologic response and develop such antibodies.

Unfortunately, there are many variables in this equation and to keep things in layman's terms without getting into the nitty gritty, pathogens like viruses are VERY GOOD at rapidly evolving and counteracting our natural and synthetic defense mechanisms through mutations. And because of this, our immune systems/medications/vaccines/etc may not provide the similar strength of signal for immune recognition purposes - and if the pathogen completely nullifies the target, our immune systems see it as a NEW foreign pathogen where it gets treated as a primary infection.

To throw a wrench into this situation, individuals who remain unvaccinated have actively ASSISTED the virus and viral mutations as it's continued transmission allowed the virus to potentially mute the effects of our antigenic targets against the virus - hence the occurrence of new variants. 

Again, vaccines aim to reduce TRANSMISSION via enhancing a person's immune system to overcome a pathogen swiftly - but because of what I stated above, we are now presented with such challenges.

Also... You have a misunderstood definition of what a vaccine is or you are purposefully creating a slanted view on what they are. Just as an FYI, there are MANY types of vaccines: live attenuated, inactivated, mRNA, subunit/recombinant/toxoid/etc.

I was with you until right here. While that may be true (in the sense that the unvaccinated will carry the virus for a longer period of time, giving it more time to mutate), it is also misleading. Firstly, there is a good chance that due to the nature of this vaccine (in that it takes two doses over a period of time) and the timing of the vaccinations (in the middle of the pandemic), that it is creating the perfect conditions for the virus to mutate. Secondly, even if everyone in the US received the vaccine, a vast majority of the world is still unvaccinated. And thirdly, animal reservoirs create the opportunity for this virus to mutate even in other species. So, no... this is not entirely on the unvaccinated, and spinning it that way is just, well... spin.

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Help me out here.  The vaccine does not prevent anyone from getting the virus.  It does not kill the virus either.  So how does not getting the vaccine prolong the virus?

If enough people get vaccinated we could achieve herd immunity within the population. It's the same effect that makes small pox and polio less of a threat than they used to be. The virus has now mutated into variants, so it's more difficult, but still possible. Not getting the vaccine allows it to continue to propagate. Same problem we have today with the various flu virus variants.

You are talking in circles.

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Original Season Ticket Holder - Retired  1995 - 2020


At some point you just have to let go of what you thought should happen and live in what is happening.
 

How stupid do people have to be to not see this has nothing to do with a vaccine. Even the CDC and "science" all say you aren't vaccinated until 2 weeks after your shot. They count you as unvaccinated if you die in those 2 weeks.

I'm not going to comment on the veracity of the NY Post. That's been well documented. I did listen to the video in the link and De Blasio never says what the article claims he said. Never even comes close.

The LV Rams are doing the same thing. If you're not vaccinated yet on game day you can literally get a shot outside the stadium then go right on inside. Look it up if you don't believe me. You're supposed to wear a mask but how many will be? They can't keep track of what those folks do once they enter that huge stadium. 

That being said, the chances of De Idiot allowing this is not so far fetched. I typically wouldn't reference the Post as I find it to be about as informative as the National Enquirer, but I was tired and didn't feel like cross referencing another site.

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You must be conflating what a vaccine is to what a targeted drug treatment does...

The purpose for administrating a vaccine is to enhance and bolster an individuals innate/adaptive immune system. Vaccines do not kill/neutralize pathogens directly, your immune system does through various pathways depending on the type of pathogen.

Ideally, what happens is you want the individual to build long-lasting antibodies from memory B-cells so if said individual comes into contact with the pathogen, they overcome the primary infection faster than the standard 2 week period it takes to mount an immunologic response and develop such antibodies.

Unfortunately, there are many variables in this equation and to keep things in layman's terms without getting into the nitty gritty, pathogens like viruses are VERY GOOD at rapidly evolving and counteracting our natural and synthetic defense mechanisms through mutations. And because of this, our immune systems/medications/vaccines/etc may not provide the similar strength of signal for immune recognition purposes - and if the pathogen completely nullifies the target, our immune systems see it as a NEW foreign pathogen where it gets treated as a primary infection.

To throw a wrench into this situation, individuals who remain unvaccinated have actively ASSISTED the virus and viral mutations as it's continued transmission allowed the virus to potentially mute the effects of our antigenic targets against the virus - hence the occurrence of new variants. 

Again, vaccines aim to reduce TRANSMISSION via enhancing a person's immune system to overcome a pathogen swiftly - but because of what I stated above, we are now presented with such challenges.

Also... You have a misunderstood definition of what a vaccine is or you are purposefully creating a slanted view on what they are. Just as an FYI, there are MANY types of vaccines: live attenuated, inactivated, mRNA, subunit/recombinant/toxoid/etc.

I was with you until right here. While that may be true (in the sense that the unvaccinated will carry the virus for a longer period of time, giving it more time to mutate), it is also misleading. Firstly, there is a good chance that due to the nature of this vaccine (in that it takes two doses over a period of time) and the timing of the vaccinations (in the middle of the pandemic), that it is creating the perfect conditions for the virus to mutate. Secondly, even if everyone in the US received the vaccine, a vast majority of the world is still unvaccinated. And thirdly, animal reservoirs create the opportunity for this virus to mutate even in other species. So, no... this is not entirely on the unvaccinated, and spinning it that way is just, well... spin.

It's not misleading, it's stating the clear observations. The reason why the "perfect conditions" are present is because we failed at achieving the necessary levels of early vaccinations prior to the more contagious Delta strain outcropping - for many reasons, most of which were due to political charades. To this day, I don't understand why this was the proverbial "hill to die on" for some individuals who display willful ignorance/defiance towards this issue.

Let's put it this way, 13 Americans died overseas in a mismanaged withdrawal and people are absolutely irate - and rightfully so. But, when 600,000+ Americans have died (AND COUNTING) and some people don't bat an eye towards this problem or step back into reality to see what is actually propagating this pandemic even further, is concerning. As someone who encounters these afflicted individuals, it's incredibly disheartening and disappointing to see how this type of dirty politics has infiltrated and muddied the waters of science and medicine. You know what's sad? The 29 year old father of two who passes away because of a self-medicated overdose on Ivermectin, with his last thoughts essentially consisting of him regretting doing so.

With regards to your second point, if we had achieved ~ 80-90% vaccination rates early on prior to the virus mutating, the virus would not have had the level of transmission and community spread necessary to jump between hosts and mutate - aka, herd immunity.

To your third point, of course there are nonhuman reservoirs for COVID - as there also are for West Nile virus, rabies, Lyme disease, and H1N1 just to name a few. But to insinuate that the rate of transfer between animal-to-human (i.e. zoonotic transmission) interface somehow takes a significant chunk of the pie in regards to disease transmission is disingenuous. I'll tell you what does though, human-to-human transmission does because of how easy it is to conglomerate with one another via work/travel/day to day life as a higher level order species that we humans are compared to bats/pigs/livestock/etc. 

So it's actually not "spinning" it in any way, that's the observed reality of what has occurred. What's sad is that we as Americans can't even agree on what is real and what is not anymore, let alone digest/synthesize what experts in their respective fields are trying to disseminate and combat. And a quick Google search or visit to "moms against vaccines .org" type of website doesn't supplant the foundational integrity that our scientific institutions have maintained through rigorous and stringent processess/regulations that aim to constructively criticize research and data through numerous peer-reviews before they become published. But sometimes the smallest dog has the loudest bark.

I guess one good thing now is that society as a whole sees how hard science is and how it's not as clear cut as people think it is.

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Here we go..

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I was with you until right here. While that may be true (in the sense that the unvaccinated will carry the virus for a longer period of time, giving it more time to mutate), it is also misleading. Firstly, there is a good chance that due to the nature of this vaccine (in that it takes two doses over a period of time) and the timing of the vaccinations (in the middle of the pandemic), that it is creating the perfect conditions for the virus to mutate. Secondly, even if everyone in the US received the vaccine, a vast majority of the world is still unvaccinated. And thirdly, animal reservoirs create the opportunity for this virus to mutate even in other species. So, no... this is not entirely on the unvaccinated, and spinning it that way is just, well... spin.

It's not misleading, it's stating the clear observations. The reason why the "perfect conditions" are present is because we failed at achieving the necessary levels of early vaccinations prior to the more contagious Delta strain outcropping - for many reasons, most of which were due to political charades. To this day, I don't understand why this was the proverbial "hill to die on" for some individuals who display willful ignorance/defiance towards this issue.

Let's put it this way, 13 Americans died overseas in a mismanaged withdrawal and people are absolutely irate - and rightfully so. But, when 600,000+ Americans have died (AND COUNTING) and some people don't bat an eye towards this problem or step back into reality to see what is actually propagating this pandemic even further, is concerning. As someone who encounters these afflicted individuals, it's incredibly disheartening and disappointing to see how this type of dirty politics has infiltrated and muddied the waters of science and medicine. You know what's sad? The 29 year old father of two who passes away because of a self-medicated overdose on Ivermectin, with his last thoughts essentially consisting of him regretting doing so.

With regards to your second point, if we had achieved ~ 80-90% vaccination rates early on prior to the virus mutating, the virus would not have had the level of transmission and community spread necessary to jump between hosts and mutate - aka, herd immunity.

To your third point, of course there are nonhuman reservoirs for COVID - as there also are for West Nile virus, rabies, Lyme disease, and H1N1 just to name a few. But to insinuate that the rate of transfer between animal-to-human (i.e. zoonotic transmission) interface somehow takes a significant chunk of the pie in regards to disease transmission is disingenuous. I'll tell you what does though, human-to-human transmission does because of how easy it is to conglomerate with one another via work/travel/day to day life as a higher level order species that we humans are compared to bats/pigs/livestock/etc. 

So it's actually not "spinning" it in any way, that's the observed reality of what has occurred. What's sad is that we as Americans can't even agree on what is real and what is not anymore, let alone digest/synthesize what experts in their respective fields are trying to disseminate and combat. And a quick Google search or visit to "moms against vaccines .org" type of website doesn't supplant the foundational integrity that our scientific institutions have maintained through rigorous and stringent processess/regulations that aim to constructively criticize research and data through numerous peer-reviews before they become published. But sometimes the smallest dog has the loudest bark.

I guess one good thing now is that society as a whole sees how hard science is and how it's not as clear cut as people think it is.

My 3 points all go together. The spin on the second doesn't work because the vast majority of the world is unvaccinated. So, even if Americans got vaccinated at 80%, we aren't getting herd immunity. Period. It's going to mutate in 3rd world countries. But, you want to blame the unvaccinated in America. That's political. You also completely ignored my first point, then used an anecdotal story about someone OD'ing on ivermectin. Sounds political. I'd like to read that story, btw.

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The delta variant originated in India. Not America. Same goes for Kappa. The lamda variant originated in Peru. Alpha and Eta: UK. Gamma: Either Japan or Brazil. Beta: South Africa. Eta. UK. Iota. NYC. Mu: Columbia (btw, FSG, looking like Mu might be resistant to the vaccine. Let's hope that's wrong). Maybe if instead of harping on the US citizens getting the vaccine, which would have prevented literally none of these variants (except possibly Iota), we should have vaxxed our elderly and at-risk and started distributing them to the rest of the world. We have tons of vaccines going unused. So, there's that.

Here's some more interesting news; Alpha Oct 2020. Delta Oct 2020. Beta May 2020. Gamma Nov 2020. Those right wing conservatives sure are mucking things up... look at them... not taking the vaccine before it was available.

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In fact, only one variant could even be attributed to the anti-vaxxers based on discovery time. That's Lamba in Peru sampled in June 2021. They have a 4% vaccination rate, btw... probably voted for Trump. All other variants were already in existence in 2020.

One more thing, I think your take on zoonotic transmission is based on nothing.

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I’m amazed at how stupid people can be. Local radio is reporting several people have become ill from self-administering ivermectin based horse medicine.

“Ain’t that horse medicine, Bubba?”

“Dang right. I ain’t puttin’ none of that poison developed by highly educated people using knowledge gained from decades of research by world class laboratories in my body!”

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I’m amazed at how stupid people can be. Local radio is reporting several people have become ill from self-administering ivermectin based horse medicine.

“Ain’t that horse medicine, Bubba?”

“Dang right. I ain’t puttin’ none of that poison developed by highly educated people using knowledge gained from decades of research by world class laboratories in my body!”

Isn't that crazy?  These people will put anything into their body, except a vaccine.

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