So, a lady I follow on Instagram who does cat rescue work in NYC is unable to get the vaccine due to a blood condition and has a verified/certified medical exemption from her doctor. The hospital she works for is requiring everyone to get the Covid vaccine but because she can't she has been put on unpaid leave. I guess they can't outright fire her but they can still take away her ability to earn a living. 

Flsprtsgod, how would you address this? How is this fair to her? How do you take away someone's way of life when, through no fault of their own they cannot comply with the mandate? 

A young lady I personally know cannot get the vaccine due to a shellfish allergy and she could lose her job for the same damn reason. She recently had Covid so she has natural immunity anyway. 

Where do you draw the line?

Along political lines (unfortunately) and I don't see that ever changing.

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When you get into the endzone, act like you've been there before.

We have exemptions for both medical and religious reasons. Employee Health certifies and there is an appeal process if denied. Pregnancy and nursing mothers as well. So, no L2L, you're wrong. Again.

So, let's me see if I understand you... your hospital has exemptions that stand against the CDC's recommendations? And you and your fellow administrators went against them to enact rules that exempt certain people at the risk of your credibility, just because you believed it was right? It's not like you're acting on some solid moral principle here. You're just doing what you're told. Which was the point of my joke.

I was just being a smartass with my post. It wasn't meant to be taken literally, but even unintentionally, I am still more right than I am wrong. Even if I concede that I was incorrect (which I wasn't), where else have I been wrong? You can't just drop an "again" on there like you've been proving me wrong left and right. I can assure you, if we combed through my assertions here and compared them to yours, I have been WAY more right than you, just as it pertains to the facts.

I think you're up to 6 different swings and misses on this thing. Let's see what I can remember without doing the leg work: herd immunity, vaccinated transmission, breakthrough cases, the importance of t-cells over antibodies, and natural immunity... I know there's one or two more in there, but I don't feel like looking. Feel free to drop a line on all the things I've been wrong about. I'd be curious. I know it's not about cases in Florida dropping off by Sept, because I called that. I've never claimed the vaccine was poison or didn't work. I've never said people who are at risk of dying shouldn't take it. At best, you have ADE (which I never stated was a certainty) and maybe, dang... I don't know. I'm drawing a blank here.

I also think I have the more correct position morally. You never answered if you're requiring ALL of your employees to take a Covid test every other day, which you would do if you were REALLY concerned about your patients getting Covid. You never answered why you should have a policy that requires convalescent patients to still take the shot. Or why you think previous vaccine precedent should occur with a novel vaccine, while completely disregarding how the previous vaccines became mandatory (they didn't just come in with an iron fist on the flu vaccine... they slowly adopted over a time and gave people a chance to see for themselves the risk/reward). You never addressed why healthy people under 50 should be required to take a vaccine that is has a near zero chance of improving their risk factor, or why you would lay off 4% of your workforce, even though they risked their lives when we knew nothing of the severity of this disease... I mean, other than you can, of course. And you've never addressed the problems losing 4% of your workforce might cause for your patients.

It would be awesome if you took the time to answer any of those questions without relying on your authority. If your concluding thought is "because I can," that's worthless. It's totalitarian. Even though a precedent has been set by the courts, that doesn't mean it's morally right, and, if you continue to embrace that logic, just admit it. Just admit you are just doing your job and you have no moral agency.

Seriously, how is firing 4% of your workforce after they came into work at great risk to themselves, likely developed natural immunity, then refused to take a vaccine that isn't going to give them any bit of protection any different than leaving translators in Afghanistan? It's not the literal equivalent, obviously. It's the moral equivalent. You're Joe Biden.

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We have exemptions for both medical and religious reasons. Employee Health certifies and there is an appeal process if denied. Pregnancy and nursing mothers as well. So, no L2L, you're wrong. Again.

So, let's me see if I understand you... your hospital has exemptions that stand against the CDC's recommendations? And you and your fellow administrators went against them to enact rules that exempt certain people at the risk of your credibility, just because you believed it was right? It's not like you're acting on some solid moral principle here. You're just doing what you're told. Which was the point of my joke.

I was just being a smartass with my post. It wasn't meant to be taken literally, but even unintentionally, I am still more right than I am wrong. Even if I concede that I was incorrect (which I wasn't), where else have I been wrong? You can't just drop an "again" on there like you've been proving me wrong left and right. I can assure you, if we combed through my assertions here and compared them to yours, I have been WAY more right than you, just as it pertains to the facts from the CDC that you have been following. I also think I have the more correct position morally, but we don't need to rehash all that, because the end result will be you ignoring all my points, then popping up later in the thread claiming to be the victor.

You are certainly right in your own mind. There's no debating that issue.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

We have exemptions for both medical and religious reasons. Employee Health certifies and there is an appeal process if denied. Pregnancy and nursing mothers as well. So, no L2L, you're wrong. Again.

What qualifies as a religious exemption?

Generally it's a principle attributed to an organized religion that is recognized by the federal government in all other Title VII non-discrimination regulations.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

I take it back. I just can't be that mean. You're not Joe Biden, but you are Joe Biden adjacent.

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So, let's me see if I understand you... your hospital has exemptions that stand against the CDC's recommendations? And you and your fellow administrators went against them to enact rules that exempt certain people at the risk of your credibility, just because you believed it was right? It's not like you're acting on some solid moral principle here. You're just doing what you're told. Which was the point of my joke.

I was just being a smartass with my post. It wasn't meant to be taken literally, but even unintentionally, I am still more right than I am wrong. Even if I concede that I was incorrect (which I wasn't), where else have I been wrong? You can't just drop an "again" on there like you've been proving me wrong left and right. I can assure you, if we combed through my assertions here and compared them to yours, I have been WAY more right than you, just as it pertains to the facts from the CDC that you have been following. I also think I have the more correct position morally, but we don't need to rehash all that, because the end result will be you ignoring all my points, then popping up later in the thread claiming to be the victor.

You are certainly right in your own mind. There's no debating that issue.

Then debate the issues. I went back and edited my post. Pick one and let's start there.

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One more thing: the stronger my argument gets, the more you retreat into attacking my character instead of my positions. I have shown myself to be open to change my mind as the data presents itself. My stance has changed on many things, even in this thread. So why would you try to demean my character by making it seem like I'm an egomaniac? Just debate the many things I have laid out for you.

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What qualifies as a religious exemption?

Generally it's a principle attributed to an organized religion that is recognized by the federal government in all other Title VII non-discrimination regulations.

I am curious how motivated anln employer will be to push back against a religious exemption from.the vaccine mandate. Seems like a ton of grey area.

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https://www.govexec.com/management/2021/...rk/185572/

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A better question to ask would be if his hospital had any persons claim religious exemptions, but still get fired anyways.

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I take it back. I just can't be that mean. You're not Joe Biden, but you are Joe Biden adjacent.

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You are certainly right in your own mind. There's no debating that issue.

Then debate the issues. I went back and edited my post. Pick one and let's start there.

We've debated the issues ad nauseum. I entered this discussion to keep folks updated on what's going on in the real world and somehow that's made me the person who you expect to retort and respond to everything that's gone on. I'm not in favot of a lot of things happening and I certainly won't defend the government's mishandling of much of this mess You're convinced you're right and I'm done arguing it. People ask questions and I answer, I'm not a scientist or a researcher or a regulator, so your issues aren't with me. Frankly I'm tired of it. I guess that makes me a Democrat puppet or something in your mind.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

https://www.govexec.com/management/2021/...rk/185572/

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A better question to ask would be if his hospital had any persons claim religious exemptions, but still get fired anyways.

So it seems like claiming one can kick the can down the road far enough until the SCOTUS strikes down the EO.

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I take it back. I just can't be that mean. You're not Joe Biden, but you are Joe Biden adjacent.

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Then debate the issues. I went back and edited my post. Pick one and let's start there.

We've debated the issues ad nauseum. I entered this discussion to keep folks updated on what's going on in the real world and somehow that's made me the person who you expect to retort and respond to everything that's gone on. I'm not in favot of a lot of things happening and I certainly won't defend the government's mishandling of much of this mess You're convinced you're right and I'm done arguing it. People ask questions and I answer, I'm not a scientist or a researcher or a regulator, so your issues aren't with me. Frankly I'm tired of it. I guess that makes me a Democrat puppet or something in your mind.

No. It makes you one of the many compliant people who are not willing to challenge the status quo. I'm sorry I'm making you the scapegoat for the entirety of the medical community, but you're an important person. Nobody is willing to make waves, because the few that do are castigated and shunned from the discussion. That is not because they are all quacks. There are good, legitimate arguments that are being ignored. I wish I had a place of authority so I could challenge some of this nonsense. So, in a sense, I'm envious of your positions, but I am just as equally frustrated by your unwillingness to push back against some of this stuff. At the VERY least, anyone who is looking at the data should not be firing people who have had covid and don't want the vaccine. Even Fauci can't answer that question.

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We have exemptions for both medical and religious reasons. Employee Health certifies and there is an appeal process if denied. Pregnancy and nursing mothers as well. So, no L2L, you're wrong. Again.

You as in your specific employer? Who is Employee Health and how do they certify? If a patient has a known disorder or allergy that prevents them from getting vaccines, not just the Covid vaccine, and it is in their medical records, what is there to certify? 

The only religious exemption I can think of would come from the Amish, Quakers and Jehovah's Witnesses but there are probably others. Maybe strict Muslims and Jews.

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We have exemptions for both medical and religious reasons. Employee Health certifies and there is an appeal process if denied. Pregnancy and nursing mothers as well. So, no L2L, you're wrong. Again.

You as in your specific employer? Who is Employee Health and how do they certify? If a patient has a known disorder or allergy that prevents them from getting vaccines, not just the Covid vaccine, and it is in their medical records, what is there to certify? 

The only religious exemption I can think of would come from the Amish, Quakers and Jehovah's Witnesses but there are probably others. Maybe strict Muslims and Jews.

Yes, my specific company. I can't speak for anyone else. My purpose in this thread was to share how it's really happening on the ground, not to defend every direction or decision of the government agencies.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

We have exemptions for both medical and religious reasons. Employee Health certifies and there is an appeal process if denied. Pregnancy and nursing mothers as well. So, no L2L, you're wrong. Again.

You as in your specific employer? Who is Employee Health and how do they certify? If a patient has a known disorder or allergy that prevents them from getting vaccines, not just the Covid vaccine, and it is in their medical records, what is there to certify? 

The only religious exemption I can think of would come from the Amish, Quakers and Jehovah's Witnesses but there are probably others. Maybe strict Muslims and Jews.

Christian scientists too I think.

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What in the Wide Wide World of Sports is agoin' on here???

You as in your specific employer? Who is Employee Health and how do they certify? If a patient has a known disorder or allergy that prevents them from getting vaccines, not just the Covid vaccine, and it is in their medical records, what is there to certify? 

The only religious exemption I can think of would come from the Amish, Quakers and Jehovah's Witnesses but there are probably others. Maybe strict Muslims and Jews.

Yes, my specific company. I can't speak for anyone else. My purpose in this thread was to share how it's really happening on the ground, not to defend every direction or decision of the government agencies.

Understood. I was just asking a question that I thought you would have some knowledge of. I'm not trying to bust your balls.

This just frustrates me because people with legitimate medical exemptions are getting caught up in this politicized mandate stuff and their livelihoods are being threatened or they are losing their jobs and for what? How many already understaffed healthcare facilities are losing people due to mandates and making it harder for those who are left behind? 

I don't expect you to answer these questions because there is no easy answer. I'm just frustrated.

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You as in your specific employer? Who is Employee Health and how do they certify? If a patient has a known disorder or allergy that prevents them from getting vaccines, not just the Covid vaccine, and it is in their medical records, what is there to certify? 

The only religious exemption I can think of would come from the Amish, Quakers and Jehovah's Witnesses but there are probably others. Maybe strict Muslims and Jews.

Christian scientists too I think.

Ah, yes.

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Yes, my specific company. I can't speak for anyone else. My purpose in this thread was to share how it's really happening on the ground, not to defend every direction or decision of the government agencies.

Understood. I was just asking a question that I thought you would have some knowledge of. I'm not trying to bust your balls.

This just frustrates me because people with legitimate medical exemptions are getting caught up in this politicized mandate stuff and their livelihoods are being threatened or they are losing their jobs and for what? How many already understaffed healthcare facilities are losing people due to mandates and making it harder for those who are left behind? 

I don't expect you to answer these questions because there is no easy answer. I'm just frustrated.

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Christian scientists too I think.

Ah, yes.

I understand the frustration, it goes multiple directions too. What bothers me is not the confusion, fear, or the differing opinions on how to handle it, but the certainty of bad faith by any who disagree with "my" position (regardless of the position). Left hates Right, Right hates Left, vaxxed hates unvaxxed, unvaxxed hates vaxxed, consumers hate the Corporations, and everyone hates Fauci and the Chinese. Everybody thinks anybody who disagrees is wrong, everyone reads some studies and becomes an armchair PhD preaching without accountability why those with it are doing it wrong, some like Ronster and P_rushing think that disagreement means genocidal intentions, and every conversation (like me and L2L here) turns into a competition about who is right which inevitably leads to bad outcomes.

Back to updates though, it looks like Baptist Health reported less than 100 Covid inpatients on Friday for the first time since June. Haven't seen stats from anyone else yet, but that's a good sign that the Delta wave is close to ending in NE Florida.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Understood. I was just asking a question that I thought you would have some knowledge of. I'm not trying to bust your balls.

This just frustrates me because people with legitimate medical exemptions are getting caught up in this politicized mandate stuff and their livelihoods are being threatened or they are losing their jobs and for what? How many already understaffed healthcare facilities are losing people due to mandates and making it harder for those who are left behind? 

I don't expect you to answer these questions because there is no easy answer. I'm just frustrated.

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Ah, yes.

I understand the frustration, it goes multiple directions too. What bothers me is not the confusion, fear, or the differing opinions on how to handle it, but the certainty of bad faith by any who disagree with "my" position (regardless of the position). Left hates Right, Right hates Left, vaxxed hates unvaxxed, unvaxxed hates vaxxed, consumers hate the Corporations, and everyone hates Fauci and the Chinese. Everybody thinks anybody who disagrees is wrong, everyone reads some studies and becomes an armchair PhD preaching without accountability why those with it are doing it wrong, some like Ronster and P_rushing think that disagreement means genocidal intentions, and every conversation (like me and L2L here) turns into a competition about who is right which inevitably leads to bad outcomes.

Back to updates though, it looks like Baptist Health reported less than 100 Covid inpatients on Friday for the first time since June. Haven't seen stats from anyone else yet, but that's a good sign that the Delta wave is close to ending in NE Florida.

Instant “information” at people’s fingertips, coupled with strong tribalism instincts, has turned debate into contention. 

Technology introduced just within the last 15 years has indelibly changed how societies and governments function. COVID has highlighted an interesting evolution that carries the promise of unifying a species, or affirming its primate roots.

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Understood. I was just asking a question that I thought you would have some knowledge of. I'm not trying to bust your balls.

This just frustrates me because people with legitimate medical exemptions are getting caught up in this politicized mandate stuff and their livelihoods are being threatened or they are losing their jobs and for what? How many already understaffed healthcare facilities are losing people due to mandates and making it harder for those who are left behind? 

I don't expect you to answer these questions because there is no easy answer. I'm just frustrated.

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Ah, yes.

I understand the frustration, it goes multiple directions too. What bothers me is not the confusion, fear, or the differing opinions on how to handle it, but the certainty of bad faith by any who disagree with "my" position (regardless of the position). Left hates Right, Right hates Left, vaxxed hates unvaxxed, unvaxxed hates vaxxed, consumers hate the Corporations, and everyone hates Fauci and the Chinese. Everybody thinks anybody who disagrees is wrong, everyone reads some studies and becomes an armchair PhD preaching without accountability why those with it are doing it wrong, some like Ronster and P_rushing think that disagreement means genocidal intentions, and every conversation (like me and L2L here) turns into a competition about who is right which inevitably leads to bad outcomes.

Back to updates though, it looks like Baptist Health reported less than 100 Covid inpatients on Friday for the first time since June. Haven't seen stats from anyone else yet, but that's a good sign that the Delta wave is close to ending in NE Florida.

Thanks for the update.  I assumed things were going well based on the coordinated shift by the MSM away from COVID and vaccine mandates targeting the same healthcare workers that helped get us through this.

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https://twitter.com/CodyElijah1/status/1...22883?s=20

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