Love how our GMs never choose our HCs, don't make the draft picks, don't make the FA signings etc, it is always someone else's fault 

No one is saying that but to think a GM works in a vacuum without the strong influence of the man who holds the checkbook is naïve.

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Love how our GMs never choose our HCs, don't make the draft picks, don't make the FA signings etc, it is always someone else's fault 

No one is saying that but to think a GM works in a vacuum without the strong influence of the man who holds the checkbook is naïve.

Imagine a world ...

Where football fans speculate about a general manager's collaboration efforts with coaches and ownership...

... in a thread about that general manager's viability. 

Wild stuff, man. Wild, wild stuff. Literal on-topic discussion. So crazy.

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Via the decisions that he controls, Baalke has started out on the right (correct) foot. Up until this 2022 FA and draft he truly had no control w/respect to personnel decisions. I personally could tell that he has control now albeit he selected alot per Pederson's wish list. Especially within the first four picks. Baalke and his new assistant evaluator will be good for our team.

Time Will Tell.

NH3...

Love how our GMs never choose our HCs, don't make the draft picks, don't make the FA signings etc, it is always someone else's fault 

No one is saying that but to think a GM works in a vacuum without the strong influence of the man who holds the checkbook is naïve.

Not to mention the hundreds of times people excused Caldwell by saying Khan forced Bradley in to him. Khan, a new owner who knew nothing about football. I guess Caldwell is either dumb or a child. And yeah, he took the job knowing he wouldn't choose his HC, he risked his reputation by letting a guy who knew nothing about football pick the HC, makes a lot of sense.

But yeah, no one ever says something like that.

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"Treyvon Wallet is elite run defender and better overall than Aidan Hutchinson" 11/11/23

No one is saying that but to think a GM works in a vacuum without the strong influence of the man who holds the checkbook is naïve.

Imagine a world ...

Where football fans speculate about a general manager's collaboration efforts with coaches and ownership...

... in a thread about that general manager's viability. 

Wild stuff, man. Wild, wild stuff. Literal on-topic discussion. So crazy.

Imagine a world where a sports franchise crowdsources coach and roster decisions… say from those fans who own seat licenses…

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Love how our GMs never choose our HCs, don't make the draft picks, don't make the FA signings etc, it is always someone else's fault 

If I'm not mistaken, our GMs has selected their HC (Caldwell/eight year tenure, Bradley/four year tenure) w/the exception on Meyer. Khan had an eye on Meyer being the HC for four years before he became HC. Also, we all know that Urban was given total control of the roster I.e. FA and 2021 Draft pick signings, not Baalke.  See allllllll of the receivers that went through that revolving door. Allllll of those players that were tied to Meyer within his past. Why would Baalke commit to such an atrocity? 

BTW, Baalke picked Pederson as his HC. IJS.

NH3...

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"AZANE"

Love how our GMs never choose our HCs, don't make the draft picks, don't make the FA signings etc, it is always someone else's fault 

If I'm not mistaken, our GMs has selected their HC (Caldwell/eight year tenure, Bradley/four year tenure) w/the exception on Meyer. Khan had an eye on Meyer being the HC for four years before he became HC. Also, we all know that Urban was given total control of the roster I.e. FA and 2021 Draft pick signings, not Baalke.  See allllllll of the receivers that went through that revolving door. Allllll of those players that were tied to Meyer within his past. Why would Baalke commit to such an atrocity? 

BTW, Baalke picked Pederson as his HC. IJS.

NH3...

I don't think was ever any report of Urban having total control of the roster.

The reports were that the GM/HC would collaborate and Khan implied that Meyer held more sway, but it was never defined as what you are describing here.  Just one guy deciding it all, and Baalke just sitting idly by. 

Baalke played his part in that whole Meyer debacle. We just don't know how much, or to what degree. 
Maybe he went along happily and didn't object to much at all, maybe he made several bad decisions and Meyer went along with him, maybe he told Khan that Meyer was screwing up every step of the way but he was still ordered to let Meyer do what he wants.  

We don't know.

I think the most likely scenario is that he wasn't fully on board with Meyer - but went with it knowing if it failed he'd be OK after telling Khan it was a gamble. Then he did some work at mitigating Meyer's ineptitude in the personnel process but clearly didn't do enough. Now we're a year behind schedule in the rebuild because there was no clear and resounding voice of reason.

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The reports I read (and Mark Long went in depth in on the bold take pod) was that Urban started out with final say on everything, but he realized he was in over his head almost immediately and by FA it was already the Baalke show.

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The reports I read (and Mark Long went in depth in on the bold take pod) was that Urban started out with final say on everything, but he realized he was in over his head almost immediately and by FA it was already the Baalke show.

"Final say"

Seems that folks interpret this several different ways.

To me it implies a collaboration with one collaborator having veto power when a disagreement occurs. 

Secondly -  I never read anything about personnel becoming the Baalke show by the time free agency began. 

Lastly, do you agree that the Oliver dispatch/ Tebow add, the Farrell pick,  the Etienne pick, and the subsequent attempts to find free agents to fill Etienne's spot after injury were Baalke moves? All of that seemed very "Meyer show" to me.

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Via the decisions that he controls, Baalke has started out on the right (correct) foot. Up until this 2022 FA and draft he truly had no control w/respect to personnel decisions. I personally could tell that he has control now albeit he selected alot per Pederson's wish list. Especially within the first four picks. Baalke and his new assistant evaluator will be good for our team.

Time Will Tell.

NH3...

No one is saying that but to think a GM works in a vacuum without the strong influence of the man who holds the checkbook is naïve.

Not to mention the hundreds of times people excused Caldwell by saying Khan forced Bradley in to him. Khan, a new owner who knew nothing about football. I guess Caldwell is either dumb or a child. And yeah, he took the job knowing he wouldn't choose his HC, he risked his reputation by letting a guy who knew nothing about football pick the HC, makes a lot of sense.

But yeah, no one ever says something like that.

How could Khan resist with those delicious Ice cream Sundae's Gus was cooking up?   Khan don't care about winning because with Gus every Sunday was a Sundae Party!

---

The reports I read (and Mark Long went in depth in on the bold take pod) was that Urban started out with final say on everything, but he realized he was in over his head almost immediately and by FA it was already the Baalke show.

"Final say"

Seems that folks interpret this several different ways.

To me it implies a collaboration with one collaborator having veto power when a disagreement occurs. 

Secondly -  I never read anything about personnel becoming the Baalke show by the time free agency began. 

Lastly, do you agree that the Oliver dispatch/ Tebow add, the Farrell pick,  the Etienne pick, and the subsequent attempts to find free agents to fill Etienne's spot after injury were Baalke moves? All of that seemed very "Meyer show" to me.

Meyer was very front and center lamenting missing out on Kadarius Toney in the draft.  Sure sounded and felt like he was running the show last year to me.  Also once free agency opened up, he was front and center lamenting not being able to talk to free agents like he could with high school kids coming into college and guys started getting signed elsewhere.  Again, sounds like he was largely in control of the process to me and just didn’t get it.

Maybe Baalke let him hang himself in that regard.  But then we’d owe him a debt of gratitude.

Meyer poking his head into Baalke’s office a few weeks prior to the cincy game: “Just a heads up, I have a place in Cincinnati so I’m gonna stay a few days longer after our game there in a few weeks.”

Baalke: “Sure.  No problems here.  Have fun!”

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"Final say"

Seems that folks interpret this several different ways.

To me it implies a collaboration with one collaborator having veto power when a disagreement occurs. 

Secondly -  I never read anything about personnel becoming the Baalke show by the time free agency began. 

Lastly, do you agree that the Oliver dispatch/ Tebow add, the Farrell pick,  the Etienne pick, and the subsequent attempts to find free agents to fill Etienne's spot after injury were Baalke moves? All of that seemed very "Meyer show" to me.

Meyer was very front and center lamenting missing out on Kadarius Toney in the draft.  Sure sounded and felt like he was running the show last year to me.  Also once free agency opened up, he was front and center lamenting not being able to talk to free agents like he could with high school kids coming into college and guys started getting signed elsewhere.  Again, sounds like he was largely in control of the process to me and just didn’t get it.

Maybe Baalke let him hang himself in that regard.  But then we’d owe him a debt of gratitude.

Meyer poking his head into Baalke’s office a few weeks prior to the cincy game: “Just a heads up, I have a place in Cincinnati so I’m gonna stay a few days longer after our game there in a few weeks.”

Baalke: “Sure.  No problems here.  Have fun!”

It was probably 75% Meyer. Maybe a little more than that. Also, I agree. Seems like Baalke wasn't a fan (neither was the team by most accounts) and he didn't go out of his way to be another grown man's keeper. As he shouldn't have to be at this point in his life. Meyer was woefully ill-prepared for the NFL. 

Just glad that [BLEEP] show is done and over with.

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"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."

Via the decisions that he controls, Baalke has started out on the right (correct) foot. Up until this 2022 FA and draft he truly had no control w/respect to personnel decisions. I personally could tell that he has control now albeit he selected alot per Pederson's wish list. Especially within the first four picks. Baalke and his new assistant evaluator will be good for our team.

Time Will Tell.

NH3...

No one is saying that but to think a GM works in a vacuum without the strong influence of the man who holds the checkbook is naïve.

Not to mention the hundreds of times people excused Caldwell by saying Khan forced Bradley in to him. Khan, a new owner who knew nothing about football. I guess Caldwell is either dumb or a child. And yeah, he took the job knowing he wouldn't choose his HC, he risked his reputation by letting a guy who knew nothing about football pick the HC, makes a lot of sense.

But yeah, no one ever says something like that.

The Bradley hire was not a bad decision. On its face it looked to be a good hire. Here was a guy with experience on a successful team who also had an upbeat and infectious attitude. It appeared he had all the tools to be a successful head coach. The travesty was keeping him longer than two years when it became obvious Defensive Coordinator was his peak level of achievement. The final two years is where the dynamic of GM vs owner comes into question. Was Caldwell a Bradley homer or was Khan insistent on keeping him? Given how easily he was schmoozed by Meyer, I’m under the impression Khan couldn’t find it in himself to cut ties with bubbly Bradley until it became catastrophically clear that he was not going to get better. 

To Khan’s credit, I believe he is finally learning that nice guys finish last in the NFL. His willingness to can Meyer before the season was over indicates to me he is more willing to consider the advice of football people. Advice he may have previously considered harsh. We are not only witnessing the evolvement of a team but also the enlightenment of an owner.

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Not to mention the hundreds of times people excused Caldwell by saying Khan forced Bradley in to him. Khan, a new owner who knew nothing about football. I guess Caldwell is either dumb or a child. And yeah, he took the job knowing he wouldn't choose his HC, he risked his reputation by letting a guy who knew nothing about football pick the HC, makes a lot of sense.

But yeah, no one ever says something like that.

How could Khan resist with those delicious Ice cream Sundae's Gus was cooking up?   Khan don't care about winning because with Gus every Sunday was a Sundae Party!

Wow, more high brow ice cream jokes.  I miss those almost as much as balogna jokes.

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No one is saying that but to think a GM works in a vacuum without the strong influence of the man who holds the checkbook is naïve.

Imagine a world ...

Where football fans speculate about a general manager's collaboration efforts with coaches and ownership...

... in a thread about that general manager's viability. 

Wild stuff, man. Wild, wild stuff. Literal on-topic discussion. So crazy.

I like how everything after this post gradually deviates off-topic. Prescient.

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If I'm not mistaken, our GMs has selected their HC (Caldwell/eight year tenure, Bradley/four year tenure) w/the exception on Meyer. Khan had an eye on Meyer being the HC for four years before he became HC. Also, we all know that Urban was given total control of the roster I.e. FA and 2021 Draft pick signings, not Baalke.  See allllllll of the receivers that went through that revolving door. Allllll of those players that were tied to Meyer within his past. Why would Baalke commit to such an atrocity? 

BTW, Baalke picked Pederson as his HC. IJS.

NH3...

I don't think was ever any report of Urban having total control of the roster.

The reports were that the GM/HC would collaborate and Khan implied that Meyer held more sway, but it was never defined as what you are describing here.  Just one guy deciding it all, and Baalke just sitting idly by. 

Baalke played his part in that whole Meyer debacle. We just don't know how much, or to what degree. 
Maybe he went along happily and didn't object to much at all, maybe he made several bad decisions and Meyer went along with him, maybe he told Khan that Meyer was screwing up every step of the way but he was still ordered to let Meyer do what he wants.  

We don't know.

I think the most likely scenario is that he wasn't fully on board with Meyer - but went with it knowing if it failed he'd be OK after telling Khan it was a gamble. Then he did some work at mitigating Meyer's ineptitude in the personnel process but clearly didn't do enough. Now we're a year behind schedule in the rebuild because there was no clear and resounding voice of reason.

I distinctly remember Mr. Khan saying that Meyer had the final say of the roster. As a matter of fact, having control of player personnel and the new Performance Center was the leverage that was used to obtain the job. Many well known/respected analysts (Adam Schefter to name one) has also reiterated that Meyer was given said control. 

Think back on the true talent that was released/traded under Meyer. Yes, some were warranted but others had us scratching our heads. NEVERTHELESS, we're in a better place w/the collaboration of Baalke and Pederson. The front office pecking order has been reset to where the GM will be judged on whom he adds to the roster and the HC will be judged on the field performances.

Time Will Tell.

NH3...

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"AZANE"

Arnold is the only move I credit to Baalke at this point. Everything else is wait and see.

This year's free agency was a money blow out and will go a long way toward ruining the WR market.

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The Khan Years

Patience, Persistence, and Piss Poor General Managers.

The reports I read (and Mark Long went in depth in on the bold take pod) was that Urban started out with final say on everything, but he realized he was in over his head almost immediately and by FA it was already the Baalke show.

"Final say"

Seems that folks interpret this several different ways.

To me it implies a collaboration with one collaborator having veto power when a disagreement occurs. 

Secondly -  I never read anything about personnel becoming the Baalke show by the time free agency began. 

Lastly, do you agree that the Oliver dispatch/ Tebow add, the Farrell pick,  the Etienne pick, and the subsequent attempts to find free agents to fill Etienne's spot after injury were Baalke moves? All of that seemed very "Meyer show" to me.

I think it is misleading to imply that they traded Oliver specifically so they could sign Tebow.  The decision to sign Tebow to a 90 man roster spot didn't occur until a couple month's after the Oliver trade was already a done deal.    

Actually, I recall Meyer being asked about the Oliver trade at the time and thought it was very telling of their setup.  He said that Baalke came to him asking if it was alright to trade Oliver.  Meyer also said something along the lines of "I was told that the tight end had a lot of injuries..."  Again, very telling.  It was clear that Meyer had final say.  However, it was also clear Meyer wasn't micromanaging the personnel side of things.  He seemed to have pretty minimal knowledge of Josh Oliver and was largely relying on Baalke's opinion.    

I think many people want it to be clear cut.  Either Meyer or Baalke was 100% to blame while the other guy went fishing during the off-season.  The reality is much more blurred.  It was a collaboration.  My best guess is that Baalke coordinated the scouting and made recommendations.  He and Meyer then discussed and debated players and mostly came to a consensus.  Meyer had the authority to over-rule Baalke, but how often did he do it?  We don't know.  I'm sure there were certain players Meyer wanted, but there was likely also many times when he just fell back on or was influenced by Baalke's recommendations.  Both deserve partial blame for that off-season.

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"Final say"

Seems that folks interpret this several different ways.

To me it implies a collaboration with one collaborator having veto power when a disagreement occurs. 

Secondly -  I never read anything about personnel becoming the Baalke show by the time free agency began. 

Lastly, do you agree that the Oliver dispatch/ Tebow add, the Farrell pick,  the Etienne pick, and the subsequent attempts to find free agents to fill Etienne's spot after injury were Baalke moves? All of that seemed very "Meyer show" to me.

I think it is misleading to imply that they traded Oliver specifically so they could sign Tebow.  The decision to sign Tebow to a 90 man roster spot didn't occur until a couple month's after the Oliver trade was already a done deal.    

Actually, I recall Meyer being asked about the Oliver trade at the time and thought it was very telling of their setup.  He said that Baalke came to him asking if it was alright to trade Oliver.  Meyer also said something along the lines of "I was told that the tight end had a lot of injuries..."  Again, very telling.  It was clear that Meyer had final say.  However, it was also clear Meyer wasn't micromanaging the personnel side of things.  He seemed to have pretty minimal knowledge of Josh Oliver and was largely relying on Baalke's opinion.    

I think many people want it to be clear cut.  Either Meyer or Baalke was 100% to blame while the other guy went fishing during the off-season.  The reality is much more blurred.  It was a collaboration.  My best guess is that Baalke coordinated the scouting and made recommendations.  He and Meyer then discussed and debated players and mostly came to a consensus.  Meyer had the authority to over-rule Baalke, but how often did he do it?  We don't know.  I'm sure there were certain players Meyer wanted, but there was likely also many times when he just fell back on or was influenced by Baalke's recommendations.  Both deserve partial blame for that off-season.

Whether Meyer sent Oliver packing, or just let Baalke do it based on injury ( which makes little sense considering Baalke’s penchant for signing and drafting injured players) he’s still at fault for having no friggin clue about his roster and allowing the TE room to become completely devoid of talent. 

The Tebow add was worse than a thousand Oliver trades anyway considering the other options he had at the time. 

Oliver looked great in the preseason with Baltimore, and Arnold was available when Tebow was added. 
Could have had those two as your receiving TE options and it would have been way better for Trevor out of the gate. 

Either way, we agree on the collaborative aspect even if we speculate differently on which moves are attributed to whom. And I certainly don’t know, merely guessing based on what I do know of the two collaborators.

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Not to mention the hundreds of times people excused Caldwell by saying Khan forced Bradley in to him. Khan, a new owner who knew nothing about football. I guess Caldwell is either dumb or a child. And yeah, he took the job knowing he wouldn't choose his HC, he risked his reputation by letting a guy who knew nothing about football pick the HC, makes a lot of sense.

But yeah, no one ever says something like that.

The Bradley hire was not a bad decision. On its face it looked to be a good hire. Here was a guy with experience on a successful team who also had an upbeat and infectious attitude. It appeared he had all the tools to be a successful head coach. The travesty was keeping him longer than two years when it became obvious Defensive Coordinator was his peak level of achievement. The final two years is where the dynamic of GM vs owner comes into question. Was Caldwell a Bradley homer or was Khan insistent on keeping him? Given how easily he was schmoozed by Meyer, I’m under the impression Khan couldn’t find it in himself to cut ties with bubbly Bradley until it became catastrophically clear that he was not going to get better. 

To Khan’s credit, I believe he is finally learning that nice guys finish last in the NFL. His willingness to can Meyer before the season was over indicates to me he is more willing to consider the advice of football people. Advice he may have previously considered harsh. We are not only witnessing the evolvement of a team but also the enlightenment of an owner.

Mr. Khan canned Meyer because he was dishonest and couldn't be trusted for whatever reason(s). As per Mr. Khan, it happened multiple times. He had to go and it was warranted. Pederson is looking the part from an early opinion of mine.

Time Will Tell.

NH3...

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"AZANE"

It has been a while since anyone responded to this post, but as the 2022 regular season is approaching Baalke keeps looking better and better. If I had to grade his 2 classes of free agents and draft picks, it would look like this:

2021 Draft: Lawrence, Etienne and Campbell give this class a grade of A-. I expect all 3 to improve considerably this season making the grade an A. Cisco is very promising, while the jury is out on Little.

2021 free agency: Poor group. The only ones remotely worth their new salary are Smoot, Robertson-Harris, Marvin Jones and Agnew. Grade: C-

2022 draft: I hate to grade these rookies before they've played a regular season game, however this class looks like a winner. Walker and Lloyd can become perennial pro-bowlers if they continue to develop. Fortner will be a solid starter for a long time unless he suffers an injury like Michael Cheever. Muma and Connor look like solid reserves at linebacker and running back. Grade: TBD, but I predict it will end up as an A-.

2022 free agency: Destined to become best free agent group in history. Kirk and Zay Jones look like receivers 1 and 2 and should combine for a total of 140 receptions and 12 touchdowns, at the least. A healthy Evan Engram can catch 60-70 passes and provide a great safety valve for Lawrence. Scherff looks like the real deal and should solidify the O. Line. Fatukasi, Oluakan and Williams should be very solid starters to begin the season providing significant upgrades at DT, MLB and nickel. Arden Key was a later signing in free agency who looks like he could become the surprise of this group. He was a beast at LSU until substance abuse issues effected his play and caused him to drop to round 3. He could end up with 10 sacks and become a vital cog on the defensive line. Grade: A+

I was among those who criticized Khan for not firing Baalke and am happy to admit my mistake. He may not be the most popular guy with agents, but that didn't stop him from getting the amazing haul in 2022 free agency.

Overall grade: B+

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