Cleatwood hits 500!

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Oh please!  Being wrong is just fine.  That dude drove us nuts for a year and a half with dang near TMD levels of crap, and to hear him tell it, he was never wrong because Trevor wasn't perfect from day one.

NYC and FLSports, thank you so much for your efforts to give it back.  I expect many feel the same way.

I come here to read differing opinions. It only drove you nuts because you didnt agree with him and now that he was wrong, you guys are beating a dead horse. It’s boring and no longer contributing to discussion of this thread nor the board as a whole. 

If you guys label everyone a troll and beat them over the head because they have differing opinions, you wont attract many new members looking for open discussion. Some food for thought as our fan base will probably grow as Trevor ascends. Ban the trolls for sure… other team fans coming here posing as a true fan posting nonsense…ok ban him.. but gotta be open minded to other opinions on a site designed to share them. It just kinda how these things work. 
Remember most people here are here because we live and breath Jaguars. If you are still a fan after living through 2018-2021, you deserve to be a fan here sharing your opinion as long as it’s constructive. 

No disrespect to NYC or FLSports - thank you for all the hard work you two do around here. I would just like to inject some positivity and let go of past bs…enjoy the moment(s) we have been waiting on for so damn long.

I'll just say if you feel strongly about an issue, right or wrong, own it and post it! If you want this board to be a place of discussion, that's fine! We're happy to discuss things. Just be open to discussion, and most everyone here would get along just fine.

Not gonna bother rehashing the past because we've done that ad nauseam already and it needs no further attention given.

---

First of all, I called people "Nut huggers" because people were openly defending terrible plays like nothing was his fault. Trying to make any excuse in the world for him, even on interceptions where he threw it directly to a DB with no WR around somehow that was on the WR/Meyer... it got old

Secondly, "every single thread is taken over about how bad trevor is and to select a new QB" LOL WHO SAID ANY OF THAT. The literal only time I ever suggested drafting a new QB to replace Trevor was on a thread supposing we had the #1 pick again this season and Trevor somehow regressed from 12 td 17 ints to something worse. 

You wanna talk about not having a discussion? Let's talk. Every time I say anything positive about Lawrence I'm berated by childish moderators who "name call" as you say on a consistent and downright TROLLING basis. 

I did not spam anything, I barely mention Trevors flaws unless prompted by someone else. You know, like in his rookie year he'd have 5 terrible drives and then make one decent 20+ yard throw and everyone would @ me and tell me how dumb I am like he was playing lights out football. 

All of this nonsense was started by people who decided to attack my opinions when the guy WASNT EVEN GOING TO BE OUR QB, THESE OPINIONS WERE POSTED WHEN THE JETS HAD THE #1 PICK AT THAT TIME LOL. 


The simple truth is that people misjudge what i've said, and think I need to apologise for a take I never had. The first thread I made when Lawrence became our QB right after the draft was something to the effect of "Skeptical, but extremely excited" nothing bashing him, the most bashing I did of Trevor was during a game day thread when he played bad, but at the same time everytime he did something good I also called it the [BLEEP] out. You know how when Tre Herndon gives up a deep pass? and literally everyone on the board gets upset? Or how about when Travon Walker got that penalty on3rd and long a few weeks back and multiple people including moderators called him an idiot? yeah I do that too but I don't treat our QB like the refs do, no special treatment if you play like [BLEEP] I'ma say you played like [BLEEP] and if you play like a pro bowler, i'll praise you. God i'm so sick of this PC nonsense world we live in I mean we can't even say the other word for Butt on this website, what are we a bunch of 12 year olds? I think most of us are full grown adults why is this the only fan forum that is moderated as if it's a childrens playground.. and why are the mods allowed to bypass every rule but then throw out warnings for something as stupid as "nut hugger" 


Get a grip.

Imma break this down for you:

How are we misjudging " He Sucks" and "I see no reason for hope" ??
This are YOUR VERBATIM WORDS on Trevor Lawrence. You backpedaling coward. 

The apology that a dozen posters have repeatedly stated you should make wasn't for your ignorant QB analysis but for your repeated insults to the fanbase and message board. 

If you are trying to compare critique of an undrafted back up DB who wouldn't make the PS on 18 teams in this league to you pissing all over Trevor Lawrence, God help you son. You are dumber than I thought. And I thought you were really stupid. 

Please go read the [BLEEP] rules of this message board and quit acting like a butthurt little [BLEEP] because you don't  know and understand them. 

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Lawrence looked very iffy to start of this year.  IN fact, you would just have to be human to have not some kind of doubt rushing into your head after that Denver Bronco game....
...
...

Nah.

You were just to impatient to let a young QB acclimate to a real NFL offense. Others were not - because we've seen this before and we get it.

I never said "he sucks" or "I see no reason for hope (for trevor) I've said his play sucks, at times. And I said I saw VERY LITTLE REASON FOR HOPE THIS SEASON <-- theres something I can apologise for being wrong about! If only you didn't take it out of context!

I will apologise for calling people Nut Huggers, but again you're acting as if I have insulted people on multiple occasions which I haven't, and my analysis on Trevor Lawrence wasn't inaccurate in the slightest. He got better, he had the issues I pointed out and anybody denying that isn't watching him play. 

I'm not comparing Lawrence to Herndon, I'm pointing out that WE ALL POINT OUT BAD PLAYS FROM ALL PLAYERS ON THE TEAM AND IT'S ALL FINE AND DANDY, UNTIL SOMEBODY MENTIONS LAWRENCE THEN IT'S TREATED LIKE BLASPHEMY. 

I've read the rules, and 99% of your warnings against me are for post that break no such rule, you seem to be the only one butt hurt here because when you're proven wrong you just delete my posts or throw a warning at me. You're a clown. 

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Actually. What drove people nuts was the name calling when trying to defend our views on Trevor.

People differ on here constantly. But when every single thread is taken over about how bad Trevor is and how they need to select a new QB next year and how we are all nut huggers….. yea. That’s not having a discussion.

This too shall pass but it’s ok to give some guff back.

Well could let the guy have a redemption tale.. If he put in his signature he was wrong, I mean what more do you want him to do? I read through all those post back then and stayed out of it because there was mudslinging on both sides. At a certain point anyone will become defensive if they feel constantly under attack. 

You can forgive a lot of frustration around here given what we have been through as a fan base. At this point we all need to just come together. I have not seen a team like this since the 90s and soon everyone will know we are the real deal. Great time to be alive gentlemen.

that sig comes with a ginormous disclaimer, though. It's disingenuous. It's the "I'm sorry if anyone was offended by what I said" of apologies. Not actually apologizing for or taking ownership of bad takes, just trying to sweep that all under the rug.

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Actually. What drove people nuts was the name calling when trying to defend our views on Trevor.

People differ on here constantly. But when every single thread is taken over about how bad Trevor is and how they need to select a new QB next year and how we are all nut huggers….. yea. That’s not having a discussion.

This too shall pass but it’s ok to give some guff back.

First of all, I called people "Nut huggers" because people were openly defending terrible plays like nothing was his fault. Trying to make any excuse in the world for him, even on interceptions where he threw it directly to a DB with no WR around somehow that was on the WR/Meyer... it got old

Secondly, "every single thread is taken over about how bad trevor is and to select a new QB" LOL WHO SAID ANY OF THAT. The literal only time I ever suggested drafting a new QB to replace Trevor was on a thread supposing we had the #1 pick again this season and Trevor somehow regressed from 12 td 17 ints to something worse. 

You wanna talk about not having a discussion? Let's talk. Every time I say anything positive about Lawrence I'm berated by childish moderators who "name call" as you say on a consistent and downright TROLLING basis. 

I did not spam anything, I barely mention Trevors flaws unless prompted by someone else. You know, like in his rookie year he'd have 5 terrible drives and then make one decent 20+ yard throw and everyone would @ me and tell me how dumb I am like he was playing lights out football. 

All of this nonsense was started by people who decided to attack my opinions when the guy WASNT EVEN GOING TO BE OUR QB, THESE OPINIONS WERE POSTED WHEN THE JETS HAD THE #1 PICK AT THAT TIME LOL. 

Well could let the guy have a redemption tale.. If he put in his signature he was wrong, I mean what more do you want him to do? I read through all those post back then and stayed out of it because there was mudslinging on both sides. At a certain point anyone will become defensive if they feel constantly under attack. 

You can forgive a lot of frustration around here given what we have been through as a fan base. At this point we all need to just come together. I have not seen a team like this since the 90s and soon everyone will know we are the real deal. Great time to be alive gentlemen.

The simple truth is that people misjudge what i've said, and think I need to apologise for a take I never had. The first thread I made when Lawrence became our QB right after the draft was something to the effect of "Skeptical, but extremely excited" nothing bashing him, the most bashing I did of Trevor was during a game day thread when he played bad, but at the same time everytime he did something good I also called it the [BLEEP] out. You know how when Tre Herndon gives up a deep pass? and literally everyone on the board gets upset? Or how about when Travon Walker got that penalty on3rd and long a few weeks back and multiple people including moderators called him an idiot? yeah I do that too but I don't treat our QB like the refs do, no special treatment if you play like [BLEEP] I'ma say you played like [BLEEP] and if you play like a pro bowler, i'll praise you. God i'm so sick of this PC nonsense world we live in I mean we can't even say the other word for Butt on this website, what are we a bunch of 12 year olds? I think most of us are full grown adults why is this the only fan forum that is moderated as if it's a childrens playground.. and why are the mods allowed to bypass every rule but then throw out warnings for something as stupid as "nut hugger" 


Get a grip.

I said it before and I'll say it again. Like it or not, you've become the new TMD. This may have been the plan, it may be the way of the board, I dunno. But we're re-living all the same patterns here.

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Word of advice for you Chrisboy. Just do not care what they say about you. They are pounding their chest and thats perfectly fine. Just take the L and move on. By responding to them you are just feeding the trolls. Back to footabll.

Lawrence has all the tools. The future is bright for the team. The one issue is when it comes to giving him his pay day. I feel far too often you get crazy contract deals that pay the QB but hamper the rest of the team.  Green bay and Rodgers is an example. Just ask Denver how they feel about paying Russell Wilson $200 million dollar.  Luckily we have a few years to worry about that. The window to win is now. I hope this season jump starts this team.

well stated in that opening paragraph.

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Well could let the guy have a redemption tale.. If he put in his signature he was wrong, I mean what more do you want him to do? I read through all those post back then and stayed out of it because there was mudslinging on both sides. At a certain point anyone will become defensive if they feel constantly under attack. 

You can forgive a lot of frustration around here given what we have been through as a fan base. At this point we all need to just come together. I have not seen a team like this since the 90s and soon everyone will know we are the real deal. Great time to be alive gentlemen.

that sig comes with a ginormous disclaimer, though. It's disingenuous. It's the "I'm sorry if anyone was offended by what I said" of apologies. Not actually apologizing for or taking ownership of bad takes, just trying to sweep that all under the rug.

These were my takes:

Trevor has accuracy inconsistency, tends to over throw WRs in a clean pocket (Is this true or false? Has he done that pretty consistently since hes been here?) 
Trevor makes head scratching throws when theres no reason to force the ball (Prime examples are the two goal line ints, neither on 3rd or 4th down just terrible decisions)
Trevor tends to throw bullet passes to backs/wrs 2-3 yards away from him, which resulted in a lot of drops in college. (this was also evident early on) And there are a TON of examples of this last season, such as the double crosser in the endzone that had Marvin Jones and I believe Shenault running opposites in the endzone, one guy on the left was wide open no one near him, the other running to the right with a db on him (but open enough) he throws to the covered guy and the ball sailed over him and was uncatchable) I could go on and on with this one.
Trevor needs to work on his touch passes, this was also an issue early on.

A lot of this he's clearly improved on, but THEY WERE ISSUES HE DID HAVE EVEN MIDWAY THROUGH THIS SEASON.

This is where all of this started, A few small statements before he was even on our team. The only other argument I made is that he was being heavily over hyped coming out of the draft, but I STILL SAID WE SHOULD TAKE HIM AT 1. I've never called him a bust, I never said he wouldn't be good. I simply pointed out some flaws. If theres anything I can apologise for is I guess reacting to poor plays during game day threads? You know the same thing EVERYONE ELSE DOES. 

I'm sorry, but i'm not sorry for that.

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In other news, sadly, Franco Harris has passed away.

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In other news, sadly, Franco Harris has passed away.

R.I.P that's terrible news.

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Word of advice for you Chrisboy. Just do not care what they say about you. They are pounding their chest and thats perfectly fine. Just take the L and move on. By responding to them you are just feeding the trolls. Back to footabll.

Lawrence has all the tools. The future is bright for the team. The one issue is when it comes to giving him his pay day. I feel far too often you get crazy contract deals that pay the QB but hamper the rest of the team.  Green bay and Rodgers is an example. Just ask Denver how they feel about paying Russell Wilson $200 million dollar.  Luckily we have a few years to worry about that. The window to win is now. I hope this season jump starts this team.

I hear what you're saying, but there is no L to take. I've been trying to move on from the subject but people keep blatantly lying to try and discredit me on something I didn't say. You know it's pretty bad that I have 5-6 guys who DM me on this board (users who made their accts in like 2006-2008 era) who have to quietly pm and agree with me because they don't want backlash. It's pretty sad the environment that these mods have made this place. We need more mods like MarleyJaguar who is a respectable guy, and less like the two clowns who power trip off some lame mod position of a barely active message board.

maybe it should be stated better as "know which battles are worth fighting to the death over". You were just as dismissive of the good as Trevor's supporters were of the bad. The bad is showing up far less, which is what a lot of us believed with confidence would happen, and chose not to push the panic button prematurely.

If you think the mods are dragging the board down with their behavior, be better than them and pull the board back up with meaningful discussion instead of the back and forth. While I am a delusional optimist (wink), I trust that you can bring that to these threads.

---

Oh please!  Being wrong is just fine.  That dude drove us nuts for a year and a half with dang near TMD levels of crap, and to hear him tell it, he was never wrong because Trevor wasn't perfect from day one.

NYC and FLSports, thank you so much for your efforts to give it back.  I expect many feel the same way.

I come here to read differing opinions. It only drove you nuts because you didnt agree with him and now that he was wrong, you guys are beating a dead horse. It’s boring and no longer contributing to discussion of this thread nor the board as a whole. 

If you guys label everyone a troll and beat them over the head because they have differing opinions, you wont attract many new members looking for open discussion. Some food for thought as our fan base will probably grow as Trevor ascends. Ban the trolls for sure… other team fans coming here posing as a true fan posting nonsense…ok ban him.. but gotta be open minded to other opinions on a site designed to share them. It just kinda how these things work. 
Remember most people here are here because we live and breath Jaguars. If you are still a fan after living through 2018-2021, you deserve to be a fan here sharing your opinion as long as it’s constructive. 

No disrespect to NYC or FLSports - thank you for all the hard work you two do around here. I would just like to inject some positivity and let go of past bs…enjoy the moment(s) we have been waiting on for so damn long.

It drove me nuts because he was a complete dick about it and spammed every thread with it. Period!

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CJB, you are fine. People act like we are some hyper consistent franchise that hasn't let down this fanbase and squandered talent regularly for the past 20 years. You were right to be skeptical, as were we all. Anyone who wasn't skeptical is an idiot. I am still slightly skeptical, I've seen what this franchise does to us. The only reason I can figure that people are attacking you like they are is that their day lives are a boring since retirement. They get an endorphin rush out of being right when they've been wrong for so long. Just keep on truckin' on, and lets get back to football. FYI, don't change your signature to say your sorry. That is absolutely stupid, and reminds everyone of the extreme guilt and shame mentality that society has grown accustom to. This isn't a Communist China struggle session.

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Like I said once before, it wasn't just what you were saying, it was how you were saying it.  You kept saying, paraphrasing of course, "He sucks..." "He's terrible..." and you left it there.  And over and over.  But you didn't put any context on it.  Nothing about the situation he was in, or that he was a rookie, or anything.  And now you say, "well he did suck, how was I wrong?"  You're trying to weasel out of your take.  And the more you fight about it, the worse it gets.  Stop defending yourself.  Show some humility.  Just say, "I was wrong."  And it will probably all go away.  

People aren't pummeling you now because of your old take.  They're pummeling you because you refuse to own it.

Or, all of you could stop giving the attention whore what he craves. Lecturing him on how he was wrong and how he continues to be wrong only feeds into his lust for attention. He doesn’t care if the attention is negative, it only matters that the conversation is about him.

Do any of you get it? Surely you do because I’ve seen all of you use the word ‘troll’ but yet you continue to allow yourselves to be played like gullible children.

I'll just say I'm throwing recs around in here like I'm Oprah


you get a rec, and you get a rec, you get a rec, and you too!!

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I hear what you're saying, but there is no L to take. I've been trying to move on from the subject but people keep blatantly lying to try and discredit me on something I didn't say. You know it's pretty bad that I have 5-6 guys who DM me on this board (users who made their accts in like 2006-2008 era) who have to quietly pm and agree with me because they don't want backlash. It's pretty sad the environment that these mods have made this place. We need more mods like MarleyJaguar who is a respectable guy, and less like the two clowns who power trip off some lame mod position of a barely active message board.

maybe it should be stated better as "know which battles are worth fighting to the death over". You were just as dismissive of the good as Trevor's supporters were of the bad. The bad is showing up far less, which is what a lot of us believed with confidence would happen, and chose not to push the panic button prematurely.

If you think the mods are dragging the board down with their behavior, be better than them and pull the board back up with meaningful discussion instead of the back and forth. While I am a delusional optimist (wink), I trust that you can bring that to these threads.

But see it's things like this that irritate me. You can go back to any game day thread, any game he's played in and you will see me saying "Nice throw by Trevor" or "Great play by Trevor" the problem is, nobody wants to respond to those. They only respond when I say something about the bad plays. 

Again i'm not JaguarMVP I don't dissappear when he's playing well only to reemerge to smeer him when he plays bad. I CALL IT HOW I SEE IT. I don't sugarcoat things. I'm not fake.

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ChrisJagBoy
First of all, I called people "Nut huggers" because people were openly defending terrible plays like nothing was his fault. Trying to make any excuse in the world for him, even on interceptions where he threw it directly to a DB with no WR around somehow that was on the WR/Meyer... it got old

Secondly, "every single thread is taken over about how bad trevor is and to select a new QB" LOL WHO SAID ANY OF THAT. The literal only time I ever suggested drafting a new QB to replace Trevor was on a thread supposing we had the #1 pick again this season and Trevor somehow regressed from 12 td 17 ints to something worse. 

You wanna talk about not having a discussion? Let's talk. Every time I say anything positive about Lawrence I'm berated by childish moderators who "name call" as you say on a consistent and downright TROLLING basis. 

---

Nah.

You were just to impatient to let a young QB acclimate to a real NFL offense. Others were not - because we've seen this before and we get it.

I didnt get it and I recall you saying in Oct if he finished out the year like he was performing you would be concerned. It’s always a guess whether someone will work out or not. Tlaw had some issues with accuracy in Sept and Oct. I saw him over throw many times. He was missing wide open receivers and wasn’t going through his reads fully. Let’s not sit here and pretend we all knew he was going to be the franchise QB we hoped he could be earlier this year. You can see the game is now slowing down for him and he is striking with the poise and confidence that garnered his fame in college. 

I think any fan of this franchise has just about run out of any patience. We have been waiting a loooooong time for this kind of football again.

We all saw that in spite of the fact the CBJ kept saying we didn't.  But we also saw the above the X's and O's throws on occasion that CBJ refused to acknowledge and called us all nuthuggers for even mentioning.  And now he's trying to re-write history, and you are helping him!
And if you are so tired of the dead horse being beaten, why are you passing out the sticks?

---

that sig comes with a ginormous disclaimer, though. It's disingenuous. It's the "I'm sorry if anyone was offended by what I said" of apologies. Not actually apologizing for or taking ownership of bad takes, just trying to sweep that all under the rug.

[...]

I'm sorry, but i'm not sorry for that.

Thank you for making my point.

again, done with rehashing the past. Be a bigger person and move forward.

---

I didnt get it and I recall you saying in Oct if he finished out the year like he was performing you would be concerned. It’s always a guess whether someone will work out or not. Tlaw had some issues with accuracy in Sept and Oct. I saw him over throw many times. He was missing wide open receivers and wasn’t going through his reads fully. Let’s not sit here and pretend we all knew he was going to be the franchise QB we hoped he could be earlier this year. You can see the game is now slowing down for him and he is striking with the poise and confidence that garnered his fame in college. 

I think any fan of this franchise has just about run out of any patience. We have been waiting a loooooong time for this kind of football again.

Exactly thank you.

Some people want to say "yeah he threw 12 tds 17 ints last year but I ALWAYS KNEW HE'D BE ELITE" yeah but you didn't because most of the time guys who struggle, continue to struggle. Lawrence got better, and that's awesome but let's not pretend he was a for sure thing

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In other news, sadly, Franco Harris has passed away.

@Way to bring the mood of the thread down, biscuit. Sheesh.@

(RIP, and I'm sure this one hits Vic a little hard this morning. I sincerely miss his site and hope he's well.)

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[...]

I'm sorry, but i'm not sorry for that.

Thank you for making my point.

again, done with rehashing the past. Be a bigger person and move forward.

And thank you for making mine, just like everyone else you choose to ignore what's said and cherry pick specifics to make your own take look good. Why would I apologise for something I never said or did? I'll gladly apologise for the Nut hugger comment, hell I'll apologise for thinking the hype was over blown. But I'm not apologising for something I didn't say. Don't get why that's so hard to understand.

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CJB, you are fine. People act like we are some hyper consistent franchise that hasn't let down this fanbase and squandered talent regularly for the past 20 years. You were right to be skeptical, as were we all. Anyone who wasn't skeptical is an idiot. I am still slightly skeptical, I've seen what this franchise does to us. The only reason I can figure that people are attacking you like they are is that their day lives are a boring since retirement. They get an endorphin rush out of being right when they've been wrong for so long. Just keep on truckin' on, and lets get back to football. FYI, don't change your signature to say your sorry. That is absolutely stupid, and reminds everyone of the extreme guild and shame mentality that society has grown accustom to. This isn't a Communist China struggle session.

your avatar is the perfect response to what i just read.

---

I didnt get it and I recall you saying in Oct if he finished out the year like he was performing you would be concerned. It’s always a guess whether someone will work out or not. Tlaw had some issues with accuracy in Sept and Oct. I saw him over throw many times. He was missing wide open receivers and wasn’t going through his reads fully. Let’s not sit here and pretend we all knew he was going to be the franchise QB we hoped he could be earlier this year. You can see the game is now slowing down for him and he is striking with the poise and confidence that garnered his fame in college. 

I think any fan of this franchise has just about run out of any patience. We have been waiting a loooooong time for this kind of football again.

We all saw that in spite of the fact the CBJ kept saying we didn't.  But we also saw the above the X's and O's throws on occasion that CBJ refused to acknowledge and called us all nuthuggers for even mentioning.  And now he's trying to re-write history, and you are helping him!
And if you are so tired of the dead horse being beaten, why are you passing out the sticks?

Let's take a stroll through my threads to show that this is a lie.

Props to Trevor for playing better football

Regardless of how you feel about him, or how I feel about him overall he's shown some grit and progress the past 2 weeks. The loss today hurts, but seeing the QB play solid football at least gives hope for the future.

Props to Trevor on his big game




He finally put together a full game without mistakes. Very motivating to see it. Also shout out to the defense man they were insane today looking like the '17 jags. Here's to hoping we can get a superstar or two in free agency and have another good draft and start winning around here.


Clip of Trevor being a leader

[/url]ChrisJagBoy

I like this a lot. Figured i'd share saw it on Jaguars Reddit.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1438910657311780868

[url=Sketpical/excited (right after 2021 draft)]https://www.duvalpride.com/showthread.php?tid=33763

So it seems it's a foregone conclusion that we will be drafting Trevor Lawrence 1st overall and it's extremely exciting anytime you draft a QB in the NFL but ofcourse it's even more exciting knowing you have your choice, and on top of all that he has been called a "generational talent". But I have to say, from what i've seen of him (which has been probably 80-90% of his throws @ Clemson nothing has screamed "generational talent" if anything watching his college plays I feel more like I'm watching a less talented Justin Herbert. So I guess the real point of this thread is this, I want to ask our fans your real opinions of Trevor Lawrence. How much of his game tape have you watched, what do you really feel knowing this is going to potentially be our QB for the foreseable future. Please, try your best to give your most honest take on what you've seen and try to forget what the media has told you.


Personally, I see give/take Justin Herbert (which based off his rookie year, i'd be more than happy with). But I have to say, i'm extremely confused how TLaw is considered generational, whilst Herbert wasn't. I truely feel both extreme excitement right now but it's coupled with a lot of skpeticism. So I guess i'm looking to see what others see in order to calm my own nerves lol.

The absolute worst thread I've made in regards to "trashing Trevor" was comparing his rookie numbers with Gabbert, which were basically indentical and wasn't even meant to be a shot at him.

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