6 games into this season and TLaw has 0 fumbles and 3 picks.   Mahomes has 6 picks in one less game.   Does Mahones compensate by having a running game andca defense that gets stops and turnovers?

Look at this MNF right now. Allen and to a much lesser extent Rodgers are QBs that just make things happen. They don’t just compensate they elevate the play of others around them, the whole team. Trevor doesn’t have anywhere close to that ability, it’s sad to say but he just doesn’t.

Allen is three years ahead of Lawrence and has played some truly putrid games in his time.

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

I didn't watch the game but I am just gonna say:

[BLEEP] Gabe Davis
[BLEEP] Kirk (I am tired of the guy now)

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I am a fan, not a cheerleader.

Look at this MNF right now. Allen and to a much lesser extent Rodgers are QBs that just make things happen. They don’t just compensate they elevate the play of others around them, the whole team. Trevor doesn’t have anywhere close to that ability, it’s sad to say but he just doesn’t.

Allen is three years ahead of Lawrence and has played some truly putrid games in his time.

Not only that, Allen also had some pretty good coaching to help develop him.  

Trevor's rookie year was with Urban [BLEEP] Myer.  Then he got a great QB coach in Cooter, but he left.  And here we are.  He's gotten no help.

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Cool. Thanks for the reminder I guess?

Still doesnt change the fact that he threw his first TD late third.

Lawrence threw his first TD in the 1st Quarter.  He can't catch the balls he throws.  But he threw a dime to Davis, and his WR let him down.  You can't be this negative about a QB that is doing everything he can to keep this poorly coached team competitive.

Umm ok? He's WR dropped the ball, which was an incomplete drop ball that translated into zero points. Understood, what happend on the other positions of the first half?

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Lawrence threw his first TD in the 1st Quarter.  He can't catch the balls he throws.  But he threw a dime to Davis, and his WR let him down.  You can't be this negative about a QB that is doing everything he can to keep this poorly coached team competitive.

Umm ok? He's WR dropped the ball, which was an incomplete drop ball that translated into zero points. Understood, what happend on the other positions of the first half?

No, it ended up a field goal.

Next possession Lawrence hit Engram for 16 in between some rather useless runs, Lawrence got sacked, then he hit Engram for 9 on 3rd and 11 forcing a punt.

Next possession was the ETN fumble/not fumble, then short right to D.J. on a jailbreak blitz, then he was forced out of the pocket on a scramble for 4 yards when Scherff got beat inside again forcing a punt.

Next possession was Tank, Tank, then Engram on that flat route that got blown up by bad WR blocking. (That same play went to Kirk later in the game and he hit the hole picking up 15 on the play).

So what happened? The run game went 6 carries for 5 yards, Lawrence was pressured out of the pocket or sacked three times, ETN caught and dropped a pass, and Engram caught a couple that ended up short of the marker.

But what really tells the tale is the rushing stats. D'Earnest Johnson was the leading rusher with 6 for 28. The team had 20 carries for 68 yards, of which 17 were Lawrence on scrambles. On the other side, Swift went 17 for 90 and the team had 152, of which 56 were Williams. In every quantifiable metric the team around Williams abused the team around Lawrence in much the same way. Lawrence even threw more TD passes than Williams did, Williams just had the benefit of receivers who don't wilt in the end zone.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

6 games into this season and TLaw has 0 fumbles and 3 picks.   Mahomes has 6 picks in one less game.   Does Mahones compensate by having a running game andca defense that gets stops and turnovers?

Look at this MNF right now. Allen and to a much lesser extent Rodgers are QBs that just make things happen. They don’t just compensate they elevate the play of others around them, the whole team. Trevor doesn’t have anywhere close to that ability, it’s sad to say but he just doesn’t.

Allen was 9-30 against the Texans.  What happened?

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Really dude? Keyboard tough guy much? Is it really necessary to call someone an idiot because they disagree with you? We’re all fans of the same team, we all want the same thing. 

I watched the game as I do all of them. Admittedly I don’t 100% follow every play and I don’t have any type of rewind features so at times I definitely miss things. But again, I’m just tired of hearing the excuses every game. Elite or even above average QBs can compensate for the lack of talent around them, ofcourse there’s probably an extent to that but still.

How do you compensate for dropped passes and fumbles along with a defense that can't get off the field?

Perfection? About the only thing we haven't tried.

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It was 0-0 when he hit GDavis in hands with a perfect throw in the end zone.

Cool. Thanks for the reminder I guess?

Still doesnt change the fact that he threw his first TD late third.

Lemme know when he's catching his own passes. This is the dumbest hill to die on.

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Look at this MNF right now. Allen and to a much lesser extent Rodgers are QBs that just make things happen. They don’t just compensate they elevate the play of others around them, the whole team. Trevor doesn’t have anywhere close to that ability, it’s sad to say but he just doesn’t.

Allen was 9-30 against the Texans.  What happened?

He did his Tua impression?

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Look at this MNF right now. Allen and to a much lesser extent Rodgers are QBs that just make things happen. They don’t just compensate they elevate the play of others around them, the whole team. Trevor doesn’t have anywhere close to that ability, it’s sad to say but he just doesn’t.

Allen was 9-30 against the Texans.  What happened?

DeMeco Ryans runs a zone defense in Houston. The Bills were also without Shakir and that's been Allen's primary go to. At some point it's believed Allen also received a concussion in that game.

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"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."

Allen was 9-30 against the Texans.  What happened?

DeMeco Ryans runs a zone defense in Houston. The Bills were also without Shakir and that's been Allen's primary go to. At some point it's believed Allen also received a concussion in that game.

Houston also put tons of pressure on Allen, and had their MLB Al-Shaair spying Allen throughout the game.

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NYC4jags Wrote:
Can we leave the personal insults behind for a while and get back to some semblance of topic, gents?
Please, and thank you.

DeMeco Ryans runs a zone defense in Houston. The Bills were also without Shakir and that's been Allen's primary go to. At some point it's believed Allen also received a concussion in that game.

Houston also put tons of pressure on Allen, and had their MLB Al-Shaair spying Allen throughout the game.

I was told Allen is able to compensate and elevate those around him.  Lol.  It seems we hold TLaw to a different standard than everybody else.

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Houston also put tons of pressure on Allen, and had their MLB Al-Shaair spying Allen throughout the game.

I was told Allen is able to compensate and elevate those around him.  Lol.  It seems we hold TLaw to a different standard than everybody else.

Really, because you don't seem to have any standard for Trevor.  You just just compared him to Mahomes because their stat line is similar this year, yet you reject the Daniel Jones comparison despite the fact that their stats have been similar since Trevor has been in the league.  Mahomes team is 5-0, he's been to 4 Super Bowls--winning 3, with 3 SB MVPs--yet we're talking about how it's because his defense is so great that the Chiefs are successful. (He's also 2nd in the already posted "passes dropped" category, so there's that.) Trevor's team is 1-10, but [list the same repetitive excuses], bypassing any possible criticism that Lawrence isn't a perfect QB.  

And going back to the 1 game analysis again, with Josh Allen is nonsense...  If anyone should respect Allen's play I think it would be the Jaguars.  

PS. You and your other fanboys used to wait until Trevor had a good game before firing up the "Trevor is the best QB in the league, but..." rhetoric, now it just takes a game where he was just 'okay' in a 35-16 loss against a rookie QB that put up better numbers.

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NYC4jags Wrote:
Can we leave the personal insults behind for a while and get back to some semblance of topic, gents?
Please, and thank you.

I was told Allen is able to compensate and elevate those around him.  Lol.  It seems we hold TLaw to a different standard than everybody else.

Really, because you don't seem to have any standard for Trevor.  You just just compared him to Mahomes because their stat line is similar this year, yet you reject the Daniel Jones comparison despite the fact that their stats have been similar since Trevor has been in the league.  Mahomes team is 5-0, he's been to 4 Super Bowls--winning 3, with 3 SB MVPs--yet we're talking about how it's because his defense is so great that the Chiefs are successful. (He's also 2nd in the already posted "passes dropped" category, so there's that.) Trevor's team is 1-10, but [list the same repetitive excuses], bypassing any possible criticism that Lawrence isn't a perfect QB.  

And going back to the 1 game analysis again, with Josh Allen is nonsense...  If anyone should respect Allen's play I think it would be the Jaguars.  

PS. You and your other fanboys used to wait until Trevor had a good game before firing up the "Trevor is the best QB in the league, but..." rhetoric, now it just takes a game where he was just 'okay' in a 35-16 loss against a rookie QB that put up better numbers.

QFT

The fact that some put Mahomes and Trevor in the same sentence is beyond hilarious. Trevor is not even a tenth of Mahomes, never will be half as good, it should be obvious by now.

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I am a fan, not a cheerleader.

I was told Allen is able to compensate and elevate those around him.  Lol.  It seems we hold TLaw to a different standard than everybody else.

Really, because you don't seem to have any standard for Trevor.  You just just compared him to Mahomes because their stat line is similar this year, yet you reject the Daniel Jones comparison despite the fact that their stats have been similar since Trevor has been in the league.  Mahomes team is 5-0, he's been to 4 Super Bowls--winning 3, with 3 SB MVPs--yet we're talking about how it's because his defense is so great that the Chiefs are successful. (He's also 2nd in the already posted "passes dropped" category, so there's that.) Trevor's team is 1-10, but [list the same repetitive excuses], bypassing any possible criticism that Lawrence isn't a perfect QB.  

And going back to the 1 game analysis again, with Josh Allen is nonsense...  If anyone should respect Allen's play I think it would be the Jaguars.  

PS. You and your other fanboys used to wait until Trevor had a good game before firing up the "Trevor is the best QB in the league, but..." rhetoric, now it just takes a game where he was just 'okay' in a 35-16 loss against a rookie QB that put up better numbers.

I didn't watch this last game so I can't comment on his play but judging by the remaining body of work - it's absolutely wild that some people even dared to compare TLaw and Mahomes. There is no comparison whatsoever and it's not even close. Mahomes is arguably the best QB to have played in the NFL in his short tenure - and has many, many more years to go. 

I hope we can even sniff an ounce of the success Mahomes and the Chiefs have acheived, but things are looking pretty bleak from all parties involved (coaching and player talent).

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I was told Allen is able to compensate and elevate those around him.  Lol.  It seems we hold TLaw to a different standard than everybody else.

Really, because you don't seem to have any standard for Trevor.  You just just compared him to Mahomes because their stat line is similar this year, yet you reject the Daniel Jones comparison despite the fact that their stats have been similar since Trevor has been in the league.  Mahomes team is 5-0, he's been to 4 Super Bowls--winning 3, with 3 SB MVPs--yet we're talking about how it's because his defense is so great that the Chiefs are successful. (He's also 2nd in the already posted "passes dropped" category, so there's that.) Trevor's team is 1-10, but [list the same repetitive excuses], bypassing any possible criticism that Lawrence isn't a perfect QB.  

And going back to the 1 game analysis again, with Josh Allen is nonsense...  If anyone should respect Allen's play I think it would be the Jaguars.  

PS. You and your other fanboys used to wait until Trevor had a good game before firing up the "Trevor is the best QB in the league, but..." rhetoric, now it just takes a game where he was just 'okay' in a 35-16 loss against a rookie QB that put up better numbers.

There's no silver bullet stat or stats in football.  This isn't baseball where stats by themselves can tell you an awful lot.  I know that causes many consternation that they can't point to one line or a few lines on the stat sheet and say "see, I told you he's good (or bad)."  It's looking at the complete picture as well as using your eyes and accounting for the other 10 guys on offense which can affect the play as well as the 11 guys on defense which can affect the play.  Good/great QBs have bad games.  Josh Allen has had his share.  He's still one of the better QBs in the league right now though, no question.  Mahomes is the consensus best QB in the league right now and I would say his play the past year and a half is not to the same level as it was earlier in his career.  What are the reasons for that?  The lack of talent in the WR room certainly contributes as does the aging of Travis Kelce.

The Daniel Jones comparison is one of the most disingenuous and/or incompetent comparisons I've ever seen.  It does not show trajectory which should be what you are looking for when comparing 3 or 4 seasons or more when you are trying to set expectations of what's to follow.  You can't have watched both play recently and come to the conclusion that they are anywhere close to the same guy and an examination of more recent stats also shows this unless you are emotionally invested in Trevor's failure which is probably the case for a fan of a division rival.  

At any rate, your post comes off awfully irritated for a somewhat disinterested 3rd party observer.  What's really eating you?  It really shouldn't be Jaguars fans discussing and defending Trevor Lawrence on a Jaguars message board.

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Really, because you don't seem to have any standard for Trevor.  You just just compared him to Mahomes because their stat line is similar this year, yet you reject the Daniel Jones comparison despite the fact that their stats have been similar since Trevor has been in the league.  Mahomes team is 5-0, he's been to 4 Super Bowls--winning 3, with 3 SB MVPs--yet we're talking about how it's because his defense is so great that the Chiefs are successful. (He's also 2nd in the already posted "passes dropped" category, so there's that.) Trevor's team is 1-10, but [list the same repetitive excuses], bypassing any possible criticism that Lawrence isn't a perfect QB.  

And going back to the 1 game analysis again, with Josh Allen is nonsense...  If anyone should respect Allen's play I think it would be the Jaguars.  

PS. You and your other fanboys used to wait until Trevor had a good game before firing up the "Trevor is the best QB in the league, but..." rhetoric, now it just takes a game where he was just 'okay' in a 35-16 loss against a rookie QB that put up better numbers.

I didn't watch this last game so I can't comment on his play but judging by the remaining body of work - it's absolutely wild that some people even dared to compare TLaw and Mahomes. There is no comparison whatsoever and it's not even close. Mahomes is arguably the best QB to have played in the NFL in his short tenure - and has many, many more years to go. 

I hope we can even sniff an ounce of the success Mahomes and the Chiefs have acheived, but things are looking pretty bleak from all parties involved (coaching and player talent).

Well we all hope that.

However, do you think the Jags would be better off with Andy Reid, Spags, Veech and the KC defense over the last few years? Mahomes is on his way to being the GOAT. He's incredible. He's also extremely clutch. But he has also had the luxury of a HOF HC who happens to be a HOF OC and a HOF DC.

Trevor is not in Mahomes stratosphere but it doesn't mean that Mahomes doesn't benefit from having a HOF type environment around him.

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Really, because you don't seem to have any standard for Trevor.  You just just compared him to Mahomes because their stat line is similar this year, yet you reject the Daniel Jones comparison despite the fact that their stats have been similar since Trevor has been in the league.  Mahomes team is 5-0, he's been to 4 Super Bowls--winning 3, with 3 SB MVPs--yet we're talking about how it's because his defense is so great that the Chiefs are successful. (He's also 2nd in the already posted "passes dropped" category, so there's that.) Trevor's team is 1-10, but [list the same repetitive excuses], bypassing any possible criticism that Lawrence isn't a perfect QB.  

And going back to the 1 game analysis again, with Josh Allen is nonsense...  If anyone should respect Allen's play I think it would be the Jaguars.  

PS. You and your other fanboys used to wait until Trevor had a good game before firing up the "Trevor is the best QB in the league, but..." rhetoric, now it just takes a game where he was just 'okay' in a 35-16 loss against a rookie QB that put up better numbers.

There's no silver bullet stat or stats in football.  This isn't baseball where stats by themselves can tell you an awful lot.  I know that causes many consternation that they can't point to one line or a few lines on the stat sheet and say "see, I told you he's good (or bad)."  It's looking at the complete picture as well as using your eyes and accounting for the other 10 guys on offense which can affect the play as well as the 11 guys on defense which can affect the play.  Good/great QBs have bad games.  Josh Allen has had his share.  He's still one of the better QBs in the league right now though, no question.  Mahomes is the consensus best QB in the league right now and I would say his play the past year and a half is not to the same level as it was earlier in his career.  What are the reasons for that?  The lack of talent in the WR room certainly contributes as does the aging of Travis Kelce.

The Daniel Jones comparison is one of the most disingenuous and/or incompetent comparisons I've ever seen.  It does not show trajectory which should be what you are looking for when comparing 3 or 4 seasons or more when you are trying to set expectations of what's to follow.  You can't have watched both play recently and come to the conclusion that they are anywhere close to the same guy and an examination of more recent stats also shows this unless you are emotionally invested in Trevor's failure which is probably the case for a fan of a division rival.  

At any rate, your post comes off awfully irritated for a somewhat disinterested 3rd party observer.  What's really eating you?  It really shouldn't be Jaguars fans discussing and defending Trevor Lawrence on a Jaguars message board.

The point of the comment was that you can't choose to use one (Mahomes) without the other (Jones).  Doing so shows complete bias.

Let me modify your point: "The Patrick Mahomes comparison is one of the most disingenuous and/or incompetent comparisons I've ever seen.  It does not show trajectory which should be what you are looking for when comparing 3 or 4 seasons or more when you are trying to set expectations of what's to follow."  IMO that's equal to your original statement.

I don't think Lawrence is as bad as Jones, but he's not nearly as good as Mahomes.   I would say that in the long term stats tend to reflect actual performance, we're talking about 3 1/4 years here for Lawrence and a contract that pays him the second most in the league.  (Yes I know: bad coach Urban, bad coach Pederson, bad owner, bad OLine, bad WRs, another group of bad WRs, bad defense, bad hair day.)

I would describe myself as an interested 3rd party observer.  My irritation is that any time a Jags fan expresses the idea that Lawrence IS part of the problem and that there are parts of his game that have to be fixed (assuming they can be) that person is called an idiot/troll/etc.  I enjoy talking about football and I like to comment when the hivemind get out of control.

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NYC4jags Wrote:
Can we leave the personal insults behind for a while and get back to some semblance of topic, gents?
Please, and thank you.

I was told Allen is able to compensate and elevate those around him.  Lol.  It seems we hold TLaw to a different standard than everybody else.

Really, because you don't seem to have any standard for Trevor.  You just just compared him to Mahomes because their stat line is similar this year, yet you reject the Daniel Jones comparison despite the fact that their stats have been similar since Trevor has been in the league.  Mahomes team is 5-0, he's been to 4 Super Bowls--winning 3, with 3 SB MVPs--yet we're talking about how it's because his defense is so great that the Chiefs are successful. (He's also 2nd in the already posted "passes dropped" category, so there's that.) Trevor's team is 1-10, but [list the same repetitive excuses], bypassing any possible criticism that Lawrence isn't a perfect QB.  

And going back to the 1 game analysis again, with Josh Allen is nonsense...  If anyone should respect Allen's play I think it would be the Jaguars.  

PS. You and your other fanboys used to wait until Trevor had a good game before firing up the "Trevor is the best QB in the league, but..." rhetoric, now it just takes a game where he was just 'okay' in a 35-16 loss against a rookie QB that put up better numbers.

My point is that this board is blaming TLaw because the defense sucks, the receivers can't catch, and the running game is poor.   Other QB's in the league do not have all 3 of these liabilities.   Apples to apples.  TLaw is still getting blamed for turnovers despite the fact that he has half the turnovers that Mahomes currentky has and he's played one less game.   This board  gives JAllen much more leeway and makes excuses for him performing poorly against the Texans.   It's not Trevor's fault that he was labeled " the Prince that was Promised" or "generational talent".   He was, however, the best QB available in the draft that year.   I do blame him for signing the big contract as he should have explored a change of scenery as anything less than perfection is considered a failure for him in Jville.

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There's no silver bullet stat or stats in football.  This isn't baseball where stats by themselves can tell you an awful lot.  I know that causes many consternation that they can't point to one line or a few lines on the stat sheet and say "see, I told you he's good (or bad)."  It's looking at the complete picture as well as using your eyes and accounting for the other 10 guys on offense which can affect the play as well as the 11 guys on defense which can affect the play.  Good/great QBs have bad games.  Josh Allen has had his share.  He's still one of the better QBs in the league right now though, no question.  Mahomes is the consensus best QB in the league right now and I would say his play the past year and a half is not to the same level as it was earlier in his career.  What are the reasons for that?  The lack of talent in the WR room certainly contributes as does the aging of Travis Kelce.

The Daniel Jones comparison is one of the most disingenuous and/or incompetent comparisons I've ever seen.  It does not show trajectory which should be what you are looking for when comparing 3 or 4 seasons or more when you are trying to set expectations of what's to follow.  You can't have watched both play recently and come to the conclusion that they are anywhere close to the same guy and an examination of more recent stats also shows this unless you are emotionally invested in Trevor's failure which is probably the case for a fan of a division rival.  

At any rate, your post comes off awfully irritated for a somewhat disinterested 3rd party observer.  What's really eating you?  It really shouldn't be Jaguars fans discussing and defending Trevor Lawrence on a Jaguars message board.

The point of the comment was that you can't choose to use one (Mahomes) without the other (Jones).  Doing so shows complete bias.

Let me modify your point: "The Patrick Mahomes comparison is one of the most disingenuous and/or incompetent comparisons I've ever seen.  It does not show trajectory which should be what you are looking for when comparing 3 or 4 seasons or more when you are trying to set expectations of what's to follow."  IMO that's equal to your original statement.

I don't think Lawrence is as bad as Jones, but he's not nearly as good as Mahomes.   I would say that in the long term stats tend to reflect actual performance, we're talking about 3 1/4 years here for Lawrence and a contract that pays him the second most in the league.  (Yes I know: bad coach Urban, bad coach Pederson, bad owner, bad OLine, bad WRs, another group of bad WRs, bad defense, bad hair day.)

I would describe myself as an interested 3rd party observer.  My irritation is that any time a Jags fan expresses the idea that Lawrence IS part of the problem and that there are parts of his game that have to be fixed (assuming they can be) that person is called an idiot/troll/etc.  I enjoy talking about football and I like to comment when the hivemind get out of control.

Lawrence is no longer second most paid QB in the league. He’s been bypassed by Tua Love and Prescott. 

The market was what it was through no fault of the jags (looking at you Cleveland). Once Watson then Allen then Mahomes signed the writing was on the wall. The franchise was faced with Russian roulette; sign him now for a temporarily higher market value and avoid having to pay even more should they choose to wait til next offseason; or wait til next offseason, fail to get a deal done and let him walk; or get the deal down but now pay even more which if that happened, he would still have been called overpaid because in the moment he would have been the highest paid QB until the market reset. So heads you win tails he loses

And if we let him walk, we’re back in QB purgatory. 

Finally, you keep making this argument that majority of the posters here don’t subscribe to. No one here is comparing him favorably to mahomes. I personally haven’t invoked mahomes, but I do see how looking at mahomes “down” year (by his high standards) shows that it’s still a team sport in some ways. If you don’t have a good team around you, you’e gonna see less better QB play. Fortunately for the chiefs, less better for mahomes is still better then majority of quarterbacks play in this league. His floor is higher than most ceilings. But for any QB not named Mahomes and possibly Stroud (he’s doing good without Nico) Jackson, and  Allen….they are going to see a significant reduction in play if on a average at best roster. Which is what the jags peak seems to be this season. So no, I don’t think Trevor is a big part of the problems, because most QBs would flatline in this situation. See above.

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Lawrence is no longer second most paid QB in the league. He’s been bypassed by Tua Love and Prescott. 

Tua makes 53.1M/yr and Trevor makes 55/yr.  This still ties him with Burrow and Love for 2nd highest.

Finally, you keep making this argument that majority of the posters here don’t subscribe to. No one here is comparing him favorably to mahomes.

Umm, no I didn't.  Post a quote of mine where I said that...

**crickets**

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NYC4jags Wrote:
Can we leave the personal insults behind for a while and get back to some semblance of topic, gents?
Please, and thank you.