This red herring went out of fashion long ago. No one is questioning the purpose of government, but its efficiency and integrity.

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Government had made a horrible mess of education and medicine because it's done from a centralized location at the federal level. Sanitation and fresh water is 100% more effective because it's done at a local level. As a matter of fact most of the time sanitation is sublet out to private companies by local governments.


So your point holds true, areas government controls on a federal level are a disaster areas they reduce to local control and sometimes contract private industry for are a success, good point man!

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Let's see.

 

Sanitation is handled by two private companies in Duval County.

 

Our healthcare system is a mess because of government intervention.

 

As far as medicine is concerned, the government vilifies private companies for daring to try to earn a profit off of medication.  They certainly aren't contributing to advancements in medicine.  In fact, the government usually creates more obstacles. 

 

Irrigation?  The government helps with sprinklers?  The water and electricity in Jacksonville is handled by JEA, which is not a governmental entity.

 

Thank God for roads.  How did anyone get around before government came along?

 

There is a role for government in our society.  Encroachment into aspects of our lives government should never get involved with have gone beyond acceptable.  You may want government taking care of you.  I do not. 

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

This red herring went out of fashion long ago. No one is questioning the purpose of government, but its efficiency and integrity.

 

Bingo.

 

When government gets involved in anything, efficiency is cast aside for a more bloated bureaucracy.  Where there's a bloated bureaucracy, there's opportunity for corruption, and nobody does corruption better than government. 

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

You are so dumb, you probably think Eve only married Adam because he was the only one to give her a third date … He even shared his Rib dinner. What the hell did that Snake have to offer? An Apple. --------- #$(NFS!((9zzzYnmm#HULKmwp#SMASHPPPPPP69llllAAA$$$WwW---BR549-KMG366

Told ya so! Nanner nanner.

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I'm condescending. That means I talk down to you. 
Check out the Jag's Forum Alternative: Duval Football Fans.

 

Our healthcare system is a mess because of government intervention.

 

Your health care system was a mess long before the ACA. 

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Let's see.

 

Sanitation is handled by two private companies in Duval County.

 

Our healthcare system is a mess because of government intervention.

 

As far as medicine is concerned, the government vilifies private companies for daring to try to earn a profit off of medication.  They certainly aren't contributing to advancements in medicine.  In fact, the government usually creates more obstacles. 

 

Irrigation?  The government helps with sprinklers?  The water and electricity in Jacksonville is handled by JEA, which is not a governmental entity.

 

Thank God for roads.  How did anyone get around before government came along?

 

There is a role for government in our society.  Encroachment into aspects of our lives government should never get involved with have gone beyond acceptable.  You may want government taking care of you.  I do not. 

Our healthcare system was a mess way before the ACA. Insurance carriers and pharma should not have as much power and control in the healthcare system. Nobody is arguing against profits being made. That's how innovation in industry happens. At least that's my take on it. 

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Our healthcare system was a mess way before the ACA. Insurance carriers and pharma should not have as much power and control in the healthcare system. Nobody is arguing against profits being made. That's how innovation in industry happens. At least that's my take on it. 

 

Nobody is arguing against profits being made?


I can produce dozens or even hundreds of examples from our dear ruler on down where insurance companies and pharmaceutical firms are regularly blasted for daring to want to make a profit. 

 

Our healthcare system did not require a complete reinvention where the government was running the show, and using the IRS to enforce it.  There were definitely issues, but despite that, we still had the best healthcare system in the world.  There's a reason people came from around the globe to receive medical attention here in the US.  With the ACA, you're going to see doctors flocking from medical practice, and you're going to see the level of care decline.  It's already happening.  And why?  Because the government decided to take over 1/6 of the economy.  And they didn't take it over because they wanted to help.  If you believe that, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you.  For the government, this is about control.  Getting control over our healthcare basically gives the government domain over our entire existence.  They literally have the power of life or death in their hands.  Considering how inefficient and incompetent the government is at running anything, that's not a comfort to know we'll have to depend on them for our very lives. 

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Bingo.

 

When government gets involved in anything, efficiency is cast aside for a more bloated bureaucracy.  Where there's a bloated bureaucracy, there's opportunity for corruption, and nobody does corruption better than government. 

 

And don't forget, the answer to this inefficiency, ineptitude and corruption is always what?  Yes, more government.  Makes perfect sense, no?   

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Nobody is arguing against profits being made?


I can produce dozens or even hundreds of examples from our dear ruler on down where insurance companies and pharmaceutical firms are regularly blasted for daring to want to make a profit. 

 

Our healthcare system did not require a complete reinvention where the government was running the show, and using the IRS to enforce it.  There were definitely issues, but despite that, we still had the best healthcare system in the world.  There's a reason people came from around the globe to receive medical attention here in the US.  With the ACA, you're going to see doctors flocking from medical practice, and you're going to see the level of care decline.  It's already happening.  And why?  Because the government decided to take over 1/6 of the economy.  And they didn't take it over because they wanted to help.  If you believe that, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you.  For the government, this is about control.  Getting control over our healthcare basically gives the government domain over our entire existence.  They literally have the power of life or death in their hands.  Considering how inefficient and incompetent the government is at running anything, that's not a comfort to know we'll have to depend on them for our very lives. 

That's one way to look at it. Another is, that it was only considered great if you had a ton of money. If you didn't well, sorry about your luck. I find that despicable. When money is the factor that decided weather a person gets well or not, than that is literally having the power of life or death in their hands. Only those hands are billionaires.

 

I am not opposed to haves, having more but not at the expense of the have nots. 

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That's one way to look at it. Another is, that it was only considered great if you had a ton of money. If you didn't well, sorry about your luck. I find that despicable. When money is the factor that decided weather a person gets well or not, than that is literally having the power of life or death in their hands. Only those hands are billionaires.

 

I am not opposed to haves, having more but not at the expense of the have nots. 

 

Let's explore this argument,

 

before the ACA you had private for profit insurance companies providing a service at sometimes ridiculous prices for services that where extremely bloated. Yes the wealthy often had Cadillac insurance plans that covered any and everything and those plans came with Cadillac premiums.

 

Most of us had employer provided insurance through our work, some people where forced to purchase insurance on their own at a higher premium and some where on Medicaid programs. I think everyone would agree the biggest problem was if you had to buy insurance outside of your employer you got less coverage for more money and you had to pay taxes on your insurance premiums. That could've been fixed by ending government regulation that prevented individuals from shopping insurance plans across state borders ( that law was practically written by insurance lobbyist.) Secondly we could've made it possible for private individuals to purchase their premiums pre-tax the same as if purchasing through and employer. Also some people where simply cash customers, emergency rooms took people in all the time that had no insurance at all and then those individuals where responsible to pay the bill like any other bill.

 

Instead what you have is a total overhaul of the system where you are now forced under threat of prosecution from the government to purchase a product that might or might not even do anything for you.

 

The solution was competition, the ACA essentially eliminated all competition and socialized health care. It's a system designed to fail because the real goal is single payer.

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Let's explore this argument,

 

before the ACA you had private for profit insurance companies providing a service at sometimes ridiculous prices for services that where extremely bloated. Yes the wealthy often had Cadillac insurance plans that covered any and everything and those plans came with Cadillac premiums.

 

Most of us had employer provided insurance through our work, some people where forced to purchase insurance on their own at a higher premium and some where on Medicaid programs. I think everyone would agree the biggest problem was if you had to buy insurance outside of your employer you got less coverage for more money and you had to pay taxes on your insurance premiums. That could've been fixed by ending government regulation that prevented individuals from shopping insurance plans across state borders ( that law was practically written by insurance lobbyist.) Secondly we could've made it possible for private individuals to purchase their premiums pre-tax the same as if purchasing through and employer. Also some people where simply cash customers, emergency rooms took people in all the time that had no insurance at all and then those individuals where responsible to pay the bill like any other bill.

 

Instead what you have is a total overhaul of the system where you are now forced under threat of prosecution from the government to purchase a product that might or might not even do anything for you.

 

The solution was competition, the ACA essentially eliminated all competition and socialized health care. It's a system designed to fail because the real goal is single payer.

I think this is a fair assessment. The ACA is clearly flawed and yeah single payer is where the left wants to go. 

 

I don't however think competition is so clearly the solution. In a vacuum competition is great but I think it's quite apparent there is massive collusion between the providers and the industry as a whole. I don't believe for a second that left to their own devices the industry would stop gouging any and everyone possible just to pad the coffers even more. There are problems with government trying to control the system as well. I am not sure what the solution is but I don't think having either in total control is the answer. 

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I think this is a fair assessment. The ACA is clearly flawed and yeah single payer is where the left wants to go. 

 

I don't however think competition is so clearly the solution. In a vacuum competition is great but I think it's quite apparent there is massive collusion between the providers and the industry as a whole. I don't believe for a second that left to their own devices the industry would stop gouging any and everyone possible just to pad the coffers even more. There are problems with government trying to control the system as well. I am not sure what the solution is but I don't think having either in total control is the answer. 

Healthcare is one example of the fundamental purpose of government; to step in on behalf of its citizens and regulate where needed to ensure the system isn't taking advantage of said citizens. Health care in the US clearly wasn't working as a free market, prices were sky high not because of scarcity but because medical providers knew the patients had no real choice. And what's happened now is the government has finally realized the free market isn't free at all and they have stepped in to regulate.

 

And I view the role of the government the same way with other fields as well; is the free market economy operating as intended? If yes, leave it alone. If no, step in and regulate. 

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Healthcare is one example of the fundamental purpose of government; to step in on behalf of its citizens and regulate where needed to ensure the system isn't taking advantage of said citizens. Health care in the US clearly wasn't working as a free market, prices were sky high not because of scarcity but because medical providers knew the patients had no real choice. And what's happened now is the government has finally realized the free market isn't free at all and they have stepped in to regulate.

 

And I view the role of the government the same way with other fields as well; is the free market economy operating as intended? If yes, leave it alone. If no, step in and regulate. 

 

In response to the bold.  Knowing that people are needed to to work in healthcare, and those people's services come at considerable cost, how do you propose you compel those people to perform the same services at a much lower cost?  

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Healthcare is one example of the fundamental purpose of government; to step in on behalf of its citizens and regulate where needed to ensure the system isn't taking advantage of said citizens. Health care in the US clearly wasn't working as a free market, prices were sky high not because of scarcity but because medical providers knew the patients had no real choice. And what's happened now is the government has finally realized the free market isn't free at all and they have stepped in to regulate.

 

And I view the role of the government the same way with other fields as well; is the free market economy operating as intended? If yes, leave it alone. If no, step in and regulate. 

 

1.) Where do you get healthcare as a fundamental purpose of government from?

 

2.) Health care in the US wasn't working under free market conditions before the ACA at all!

- It was government regulation that prevented individuals from purchasing better and more cost effective plans across state borders.

- It was government regulation that required plans offered by insurance companies to offer services that bloated the cost of premiums.

- It was government regulation that drives up the cost of prescriptions and pharmaceuticals though testing and taxiation

 

in almost every way possible government interference caused the mess we where in. Insurance companies make money one way, convincing individuals to purchase their "coverage" the more they insure the more they make. It's also in their interest to keep cost of medical services at a minimum, meaning they would work to ensure doctors and hospitals wouldn't over charge for services provided. You removed the incentive for insurance companies to attract large amounts of people when you make it mandatory everyone has to purchase said product. You removed the incentive for insurance companies to drive down cost when they're compensated by government agencies like Medicaid.

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In response to the bold.  Knowing that people are needed to to work in healthcare, and those people's services come at considerable cost, how do you propose you compel those people to perform the same services at a much lower cost?  

There's a difference between covering the cost of treatment (and including a profit margin) and charging $500 for a tetanus shot and some aspirin. The former is fine, the latter was legalized extortion. 

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Oh, and costs of healthcare had little to with gouging.  Remember, we already had a system in place that took care of those without insurance, especially at the catastrophic level.  Was the homeless guy that got hit by the car left in the road to die, or was he taken to the hospital?  And yes, that cost was passed on to the people who could pay.  

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There's a difference between covering the cost of treatment (and including a profit margin) and charging $500 for a tetanus shot and some aspirin. The former is fine, the latter was legalized extortion. 

 

You didn't answer my question.  What force of government would you use?  And in response to this post, see my post right below yours.

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That's one way to look at it. Another is, that it was only considered great if you had a ton of money. If you didn't well, sorry about your luck. I find that despicable. When money is the factor that decided weather a person gets well or not, than that is literally having the power of life or death in their hands. Only those hands are billionaires.

 

I am not opposed to haves, having more but not at the expense of the have nots. 

 

The level of care provided prior to the ACA is going to look like a utopia compared with what is coming.  If you think money isn't a factor now that we've got this wonderful ObamaCare, you've been swimming in the KoolAid.  All this has done is to make healthcare more expensive, and less available.  Rationing will come sooner rather than later.  You'll be pining for the good old days.  I work in the industry, so I know a little something about what ObamaCare has done to the system, and it's not good in any way, shape, or form. 

 

There will still be the haves and have nots.  The only difference now is that when the have nots who still don't have insurance decide they need to seek a doctor's assistance, they're going to be penalized with fines from the IRS.  The ACA was supposed to make healthcare more readily available, and more affordable.  Heck, Affordable is in the name of the law.  Check out the rates people are being charged, then look at the crap coverage they're getting.  All the while, insurance companies that were willing to play ball with Obama are still profiting, and if they do happen to lose money, no worries.  The government is already prepared with a bailout using more borrowed money. 

 

Yeah, ACA is a great thing for this country.  When it's fully implemented, we'll be a third world country. 

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

There's a difference between covering the cost of treatment (and including a profit margin) and charging $500 for a tetanus shot and some aspirin. The former is fine, the latter was legalized extortion. 

 

And in the US, a lot of that legalized extortion comes courtesy of Medicaid.  Why?  Because of that same old bloated bureaucracy and lack of accountability.  That's what you get with a corrupt government running healthcare. 

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.