It's not just Westboro though.  It's Faithful Word too.  And it's easy to say "NOT Christian".  Just as it is easy to say "NOT Muslim".  It's a no true Scotsman fallacy either way.  I saw an absolutely disgusting response from Steven Anderson to the Orlando Shootings.  There's plenty more like him too.  

 

Never heard of him before, but after 3 minutes of Google-fu I declare him to be an [BLEEP] of the highest order.

 

So let it be entered into the record this day.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Yeah, we're not an island that won't let anyone in like you guys are.

May want to check our immigration rate. Although as this mass shooter was an American it's hardly relevant.

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May want to check our immigration rate. Although as this mass shooter was an American it's hardly relevant.

 

yes, this person was an American.  He was the natural born son of afghan immigrants.  A few months ago an Afghan woman was dragged and beaten to death in the streets for allegedly leaving the faith while the entire crowd watched and cheered.  I am sure that he was taught the most rigorous brand of tolerance and inclusion in his household.  

 

I have to say that something like this is a tragedy, beyond all comprehension.  I an only imagine the trauma of those that survived this episode and i can't begin to fathom the bravery of the officers that had to go into an active situation that is a physical  manifestation of hell on earth.  No matter how tough i think i am, i will always hold my manhood cheap compared to those who put their lives on the line in service of others.  

 

Having said all that...  Huhhhhhh.  Here we go again.  In France in honor of the European Championships (Soccer i know) they created an APP that alerts you to the location of any active terror location (I wish i was kidding.)  There's even a special feature that provides multiple alerts if you have massive concurrent attacks at multiple locations.  Just think about that for a second.  This isn't some third world banana republic.  This is one of the crown Jewell's of western Society being forced to go to these lengths.  Are they doing this because the Westboro Baptist Church shot up a magazine?  Did something something faith of our lord kill 150 people there last year?  No of course not.  

 

We now know that the shooter in question phoned 911 to make sure that there was no ambiguity that he was doing this in service of the Islamic State. What is the Islamic state, it's the largest most concentrated terrorist state in the history of the world.  Anyone attempting to draw a moral equivalency to a domestic religion is going to have to show me where A group of wacko Christians took over a land mass the size of Texas and started drowning people in cages while recording it for propaganda purposes.  It is plainly absurd.  

 

Moreover, it's been 15 years since 9-11.  15 years.  We still haven't had a meaningful conversation in this country about what Shariah Law is, what a caliphate is, what Jihad is, etc.  There were people on this very board going through mental legal and financial gymnastics to come up with a way to make mortgages SHARIAH COMPLIANT. 

 

The great flaw with the modern incarnation of multiculturalism is that it really doesn't require you to know anything about culture.  All you have to do is hang an intellectual open for business sign on your front door that everyone is exactly the same who am i to judge and you are accepted.  It doesn't require any real level of discernment or understanding of other cultures.  It doesn't require any analysis.  It just requires a devoted sense of moral relativism and abra cadabra you are seen as the enlightened.  

 

 If you take the time to actually examine the culture in middle eastern Islamic countries you would see that there are no Gay pride parades.  They don't have public gay night clubs that everyone knows about that are safe and free from oppression.  

 

In America, people who have strongly held beliefs against homosexuality pass Rfra laws so that we don't have to bake cakes, we might even oppose an expansion of an HRO here or there if it's not football season.  The left calls THAT fascist.  Real fascism exists in those countries that throw Gay people off buildings, stone them, or just pretend that they don't exist.  

 

Contrary to popular belief, the History, tradition, and culture (based on the quran) established in Muslim ruled countries has a lot more to do with what is and is not Islamic than what the president or the left pronounces.  ISIS is the most successful Caliphate in the modern history of Islam.  This designation is built almost solely on their ability to HOLD AND OCCUPY LAND.  As long as there are black flags flying over large parts of Syria Iraq and the like it would be the equivalent of someone walking on water.  That's what generates this groups inordinate credibility, not LABELING THEM ISLAMIC.  

 

The most disturbing thing about San bernandino and Orlando is the destruction of the generally accepted terrorist model.  We are now seeing women involved in radicalization and we are dealing with solidly middle class individuals that are willing to throw away what were seemingly good situations in service of a demonic ideology.  That's a fundamental departure from the jobs for jihadis view of terrorism as an extension of poverty for an oppressed minority.  

 

There are efforts within the global muslim community to reform the ideology, culture and provide better context for the history of the faith and a brighter vision for how it can be expressed moving forward.  The only way that we can support that positive change is to admit that it is necessary.  That's why its important that in times like this we don't just hand out 1.6 billion get out of jail free cards to a religious and political ideology that is quickly becoming the potential evil of the 21st century.  

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Seems like the FBI failed big time here.

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I always assume these are staged events.  All early reports of TWO shooters have been scrubbed.  All reports of somebody holding the back door closed have been scrubbed.  One guy killing 50 and wounding 53 sounds bogus.  Nobody rushed him?  He had to change magazines several times.  And why are all the victims being carried TOWARD Pulse?  There's the stand-up MRI place, the Dunkin Donuts, then Pulse.  How did the injured victims get to the MRI place a block away from Pulse?

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JJ you keep mentioning the being Islamic, but the guy is an American. What are you suggesting? Lock up all the Muslims? You can't deport him anywhere as he's an American citizen. So what is your solution? Also the guy hoping to shoot the gay guys in LA doesn't look typically islamic?

 

The guy was on the FBI radar and he's able to get hold of weapons, there is disbelief at that over here.

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I always assume these are staged events.  All early reports of TWO shooters have been scrubbed.  All reports of somebody holding the back door closed have been scrubbed.  One guy killing 50 and wounding 53 sounds bogus.  Nobody rushed him?  He had to change magazines several times.  And why are all the victims being carried TOWARD Pulse?  There's the stand-up MRI place, the Dunkin Donuts, then Pulse.  How did the injured victims get to the MRI place a block away from Pulse?

 

Tinfoil hat time!

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JJ you keep mentioning the being Islamic, but the guy is an American. What are you suggesting? Lock up all the Muslims? You can't deport him anywhere as he's an American citizen. So what is your solution? Also the guy hoping to shoot the gay guys in LA doesn't look typically islamic?

 

The guy was on the FBI radar and he's able to get hold of weapons, there is disbelief at that over here.

 

The investigation turned nothing up and he wasn't ever charged with anything at all. What possible legal ground would you stand on to deprive him of his rights? He's innocent until proven guilty, unless you're interested in changing that foundational legal principle?

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

 That's why its important that in times like this we don't just hand out 1.6 billion get out of jail free cards to a religious and political ideology that is quickly becoming the potential evil of the 21st century.  

 

What the hell does that even mean? If you are saying that any 'legal' system that advocates killing individuals for homosexuality, adultery, or other transgressions is not ok, I don't think you will get much argument. Regarding a meaningful discussion on Shariah law, when was the last time we really had a meaningful discussion on much of anything to do with foreign policy? We do not have the most engaged citizenry, and never really have. Not sure what this discussion would entail, but wth, we can chat about it right now. From my perspective, San Bernadino and Orlando were a few nut jobs acting not at the directive on any terrorist organization, but trying to gain some credibility for their frustration by linking it to ISIS. I don't see ISIS as the key here, I see a few unstable individuals. Don't get me wrong, that is in no way apologetics for ISIS, just not willing to overstate their importance. 

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<p class="bbc_left">Education is the cheap defense of nations. - Edmund Burke

<p class="bbc_left"> 

<p class="bbc_left">Or is it from Burke? I tried finding the source, and looked through some of his writings, no luck. Anybody with google-fu got a citation of the source?

So let me get this right. A few words can send any one of the members of this group into a murderous rage? Yes by all means lets spend billions of dollars to resettle as many as possible here.

 

Ignorant

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We're close to the line here, I'll just say that I KNOW where Mainstream Christianity stands on Westboro, I don't KNOW where Mainstream Islam stands on Islamic Terrorism.

 

Then you're not paying attention...  Or are willfully ignoring it.  Mainstream muslims all condemn this act and all acts of ISIS.  Come on dude, don't be so obtuse.

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Tinfoil hat time!

 

Yes it is.  We know the media are proven liars.  We know that NORAD and Pentagon officials lied so many times to the 9/11 Commission that the Commission considered criminal charges.  We know that nobody died at Sandy Hook and the Boston Bombing was a hoax with staged amputees and phony blood packets.  So all diligent citizens have a natural skepticism about these events. 

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The investigation turned nothing up and he wasn't ever charged with anything at all. What possible legal ground would you stand on to deprive him of his rights? He's innocent until proven guilty, unless you're interested in changing that foundational legal principle?

 

Well, given that he already mentioned in an earlier post the whole gun control thing, it wouldn't surprise me greatly if he was talking more about limiting access to guns. Speaking personally, I don't really have a big problem limiting access to certain types of weapons like AR-15's, but that is more an issue of damage limitation, not getting rid of the root issue of when nut jobs go off the rails. Not really sure how we totally eliminate the risk, or if the cost would outweigh the gains. (Thinking homeland security and airport policies as an example of spectacularly bad attempts at a solution).

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<p class="bbc_left">Education is the cheap defense of nations. - Edmund Burke

<p class="bbc_left"> 

<p class="bbc_left">Or is it from Burke? I tried finding the source, and looked through some of his writings, no luck. Anybody with google-fu got a citation of the source?

The investigation turned nothing up and he wasn't ever charged with anything at all. What possible legal ground would you stand on to deprive him of his rights? He's innocent until proven guilty, unless you're interested in changing that foundational legal principle?

No I wouldn't change that part. I would AMEND something else.

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Sounds like many people knew this guy was a ticking time bomb but nothing was really done.  I mean, he's muslim... clearly a religion of peace and very unlikely he would go on a killing spree.

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No I wouldn't change that part. I would AMEND something else.

 

And you would lose in the attempt. And it would be bloody.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Guns will probably win or lose this election. I have never been a gun owner and am looking into doing so right now. Having the ability to defend your family has never been more important than it is right now.

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Mateen's brother-in-law hates Trump, supports gun control, works with refugees, and doesn't like white people.  This is surprising.

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Well, given that he already mentioned in an earlier post the whole gun control thing, it wouldn't surprise me greatly if he was talking more about limiting access to guns. Speaking personally, I don't really have a big problem limiting access to certain types of weapons like AR-15's, but that is more an issue of damage limitation, not getting rid of the root issue of when nut jobs go off the rails. Not really sure how we totally eliminate the risk, or if the cost would outweigh the gains. (Thinking homeland security and airport policies as an example of spectacularly bad attempts at a solution).

 

The point is that you really can't eliminate the risk, freedom is messy, and we do our best to walk the line between safety and freedom knowing that guys like this are out there and want to kill us.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Guns will probably win or lose this election. I have never been a gun owner and am looking into doing so right now. Having the ability to defend your family has never been more important than it is right now.

 

At the exact same time that many are advocating that you give up that right and the tools to exercise it. Because if you disarm the good guys then the bad guys will quit being bad.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato