You know what the people also didn't say?


Hey, Obama, what we want for you to do is participate in a proxy war, give Islamic extremists weapons and training in a fight against Assad.... and the entire world.

Lol, well you got me there. But again, if I remember correctly, republicans and the war mongering media were pushing Obama pretty hard to get Assad out...


Is that how you recall it? Remember that whole thing? The chemical weapons Assad was using on the rebels, mccain and I think a couple other republicans going to meet with the rebels, the rhetoric that Assad had crossed the red line, etc...


There were no good choices at that point.

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Lol, well you got me there. But again, if I remember correctly, republicans and the war mongering media were pushing Obama pretty hard to get Assad out...


Is that how you recall it? Remember that whole thing? The chemical weapons Assad was using on the rebels, mccain and I think a couple other republicans going to meet with the rebels, the rhetoric that Assad had crossed the red line, etc...


There were no good choices at that point.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Donald's plan to send more troops. Isn't that exactly what everybody wanted eight years ago. So basically we're back to where we were during the Bush administration.

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Lol, well you got me there. But again, if I remember correctly, republicans and the war mongering media were pushing Obama pretty hard to get Assad out...


Is that how you recall it? Remember that whole thing? The chemical weapons Assad was using on the rebels, mccain and I think a couple other republicans going to meet with the rebels, the rhetoric that Assad had crossed the red line, etc...


There were no good choices at that point.

Sorry, but McCain was speaking for himself, and not the party.  He and that other war hawk, Lindsey Graham are hardly the pulse of the conservatives. 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Donald's plan to send more troops. Isn't that exactly what everybody wanted eight years ago. So basically we're back to where we were during the Bush administration.

Are you referring to the surge in Iraq that actually turned the tide in that war?  The one democrats fought to prevent?

 

I think what Trump is willing to do, and what this administration has failed to do, is to let his military leaders come up with a feasible plan that would potentially include US troops on the ground, to root out and end this ISIS situation once and for all.  Trump has indicated he will not run a political war by interfering in the strategy as Obama has done consistently throughout his presidency.  You know, act like a president who trusts his men on the ground? 

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

How am I being dishonest? I've provided facts to back up my points. You've simply followed the typical playbook your master teleprompter reader in the Oval Office uses, blaming it on Bush. I've never said ISIS didn't expand in numbers under Bush. But, you're being completely dishonest when you act like that growth came with expansion of control, because that didn't happen until later when your inept king was busily running around on tour apologizing for America..


For those who weren't trying to make the Bush administration look worse by saying al Qaeda wasn't in Iraq, the ISIS / ISIL label was a convenient word game to avoid confirming that al Qaeda was indeed in Iraq. That's not intellectually dishonest on my part. That's intellectually dishonest on the part of anyone who said al Qaeda wasn't in Iraq with multiple camps. Going from control over nothing to basically running a country and expanding their terror footprint into the rest of the Middle East, Europe, and abroad is a true explosion. But, in order to agree with that, you'll have to admit that your beloved ruler was responsible since it happened under his watch. I know you can't do that because for all the love and energy you put into defending your pantsuited princess, you will double down on the defense you put up for Barry Soetoro. After all, it's his playbook you're working with.


There was already a plan underway to withdraw the majority of troops from Iraq, but not all of them. Obama didn't have the spine to stand up to Iraq and insist on keeping a residual force there, and by showing no testicular fortitude (par for the course unless you're using drones), Obama basically rolled out the red carpet for ISIS (we can't call them al Qaeda in Iraq for obvious reasons) to fill the void and they were only too happy to oblige.

What?? Al Qaeda in Iraq was a thing for as long as I can remember?


I'm sorry, but I see this very differently. And I think I have history to back me up.


First, the occupation of the middle east by America did more to incite unrest than any speech president Obama gave. If you honestly believe that one of Obama's speeches caused the Arab spring or whatever, please provide your source for us to review. From my understanding, revolutions usually occur because of economic crises, authoritarian turmoil, or religious zealotry - not from a speech a foreign official gives. But if I'm wrong, please provide a link for us to review.


Second, while I'll agree that Obama did the Syria and Iraq no favors, I think the original sin (the invasion we were lied into) is by far the biggest fault and shame that hangs on the USA. If we never occupied Iraq this never would have happened, for crying out loud!!!!


So I find it odd that your disdain for Obama borders on the fanatical, while you have yet to acknowledge the fact that it was Bush that created this entire quagmire.


If you cannot at least admit that, then you're truly not being an honest broker in this conversation.


I'm honest enough to concede the point Stroud made earlier today because I want honest conversations. And I think there are really good posters here that also want the same. How bout you, FBT? Can you concede that the original sin falls on the Bush administration?

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[quote name="Rashean27Mathis" post="785441" timestamp="1471024810"]I thought that means it's on Bush's watch - and on Bush's hands...?[/quote] 

Under the Bush administration 30,000 Sunni soldiers were fired when we disbanded iraq's military...

Those Sunni soldiers began to organize and eventually became Isis...

So, you're actually not wrong.

  

Besides, when you add "duh", I take it to mean sarcasm.

So there's a good chance bunnie honestly thinks Bush is not responsible for creating Isis...

  

So Bush was innocent in the growth of Isis?

First...  Where did ISIS form in 1999?  Was it in Iraq?  I know the answer to this question, and the fact that you do not bring up this key point shows that you are just being intellectually dishonest.

 ISIS formed in 1999 but didn't enter Iraq untill your boy lied us into an occupation and then fired the military that was made up of mostly Sunni soldiers.  So basically under Bush, ISIS in Iraq went from 0 to thousands...  

 Going from 0 to thousands is an explosion, don't you think?  You know, if you actually tried to have an honest conversation instead of trying to be dishonest with the conversation, you'd get further.  

 As for leaving Iraq - we were all chomping at the bit to stay in Iraq at that time.  Remember?  Remember how everyone was begging Obama to stay in Iraq indefinately?  I sure do.

Why do you always seem to leave out important details?  Is it because you have a problem with context?

What details did I leave out? The claims of Isis being all Bush's fault or your own admission that Isis was around before Bush came into office?


Maybe you should avoid attempts at being smug in your comments if you're going to get your panties in a bunch when you're proven wrong....petulance isn't a good look on anyone.

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What in the Wide Wide World of Sports is agoin' on here???

What details did I leave out? The claims of Isis being all Bush's fault or your own admission that Isis was around before Bush came into office?


Maybe you should avoid attempts at being smug in your comments if you're going to get your panties in a bunch when you're proven wrong....petulance isn't a good look on anyone.

You don't get it. It's Ok -

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Lol, well you got me there. But again, if I remember correctly, republicans and the war mongering media were pushing Obama pretty hard to get Assad out...


Is that how you recall it? Remember that whole thing? The chemical weapons Assad was using on the rebels, mccain and I think a couple other republicans going to meet with the rebels, the rhetoric that Assad had crossed the red line, etc...


There were no good choices at that point.

Of course McCain neo-con trash is going to say that. They're all globalist trash. Him and Kasich are types always chomping at the bit to start a war with Russia. I have as much in common with them as I do Obama.

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What?? Al Qaeda in Iraq was a thing for as long as I can remember?


I'm sorry, but I see this very differently. And I think I have history to back me up.


First, the occupation of the middle east by America did more to incite unrest than any speech president Obama gave. If you honestly believe that one of Obama's speeches caused the Arab spring or whatever, please provide your source for us to review. From my understanding, revolutions usually occur because of economic crises, authoritarian turmoil, or religious zealotry - not from a speech a foreign official gives. But if I'm wrong, please provide a link for us to review.


Second, while I'll agree that Obama did the Syria and Iraq no favors, I think the original sin (the invasion we were lied into) is by far the biggest fault and shame that hangs on the USA. If we never occupied Iraq this never would have happened, for crying out loud!!!!


So I find it odd that your disdain for Obama borders on the fanatical, while you have yet to acknowledge the fact that it was Bush that created this entire quagmire.


If you cannot at least admit that, then you're truly not being an honest broker in this conversation.


I'm honest enough to concede the point Stroud made earlier today because I want honest conversations. And I think there are really good posters here that also want the same. How bout you, FBT? Can you concede that the original sin falls on the Bush administration?

 

Yes, democrats disputed the notion that al Qaeda was operating inside Iraq after Bush made assertions that there was a link there.  That was proven to be true.  al Qaeda in Iraq was indeed a real thing.  This link was considered part of the justification for the Iraq war, along with repeated violations of UN sanctions that warranted military intervention.

 

 

I know the liberals like to talk about the WMDs in Iraq.  It's odd to me that, despite finding plenty of weapons, there was never any really broadly dispersed reports about the findings.  I read an article a while back that said the Bush administration kept a lid on revealing what was found despite the fact that it was not the politically expedient thing to do.  I don't know if that's factual or not, but I do know that when the weapons caches were discovered, they barely registered on the media radar.  The NY Times DID report on it, but they tried to be as dismissive as possible. 

 

I read an article a year or so ago, and I went out and tracked it down.  It was a panel interviewed by the notorious conservative website, Politico.  They were asked about Iraq, and how lost it, Bush, or Obama.  They talked about the explosion of ISIS in the country after the troop withdrawal, and while the article itself came away with an inconclusive who to blame, if you read the comments by people who have been involved with diplomatic relations in Iraq, and who have a vast knowledge of what transpired there after the withdrawal, they pretty much put the blame for ISIS at the feet of Obama, although they say it was mostly because of fatigue and a lack of attention in the region, and not so much about policy.  Obama wanted to pivot to Asia, and lost focus, and the end result was a complete implosion.  The panel almost unanimously agreed that Iraq was in a good place when Obama took office in 2009.  Feel free to read the article yourself, and you'll see that experts with far more knowledge on the subject told a conservative news outlet like Politico that they think Obama is to blame for ISIS' explosion in growth in Iraq and Syria.  

 

I never said any speech by Obama sparked the Arab Spring, although with his ego, he would probably LOVE to think that were true.  Feel free to show a quote where I did anything of the sort.  All I was pointing out is that Obama went on an apology tour in the region and signaled the fact that the United States was eagerly looking to lead from behind.  The Arab Spring started in Tunisia when a guy dumped gasoline on, and set himself on fire to protest the government there.  The fact that he was willing to do that to himself sparked a movement that swept throughout the region, and culminated in the Muslim Brotherhood taking control in Egypt.  Obama certainly encouraged the Arab Spring, but he didn't inspire it.

 

As far as being "Lied into Iraq", I don't think that was necessarily the case.  Yes, there was some bad intelligence when it came to the whole yellow cake thing, but the primary indicator for military intervention in Iraq was based on 16 UN resolutions dating back to 1990 requiring Iraq to provide unfettered access for inspectors to all weapons development facilities.  Hussein started blocking inspectors from entering the country as some sort of diplomatic negotiation to gain concessions from the UN and UN nation states.  He pushed the UN repeatedly knowing that these sanctions included authorization for member states to intervene militarily.  Eventually, his refusal to cooperate was bound to have consequences, and the Bush administration made the case to go in.  We know now that there was bad intelligence involved, but I tend to think that this wasn't intentionally done.  It was way too high profile for that to be the case.  The very fact that Hussein refused to let UN inspectors do their jobs in Iraq was justification enough.  While I was never a fan of the Iraq war because we were still fully engaged in taking on al Qaeda in Afghanistan, I understood the logic behind it as we had been lead to believe.  It's easy to say it was a bad move today, but at the time, even your beloved princess voted for the war.  She's spinning her lies about that vote now, but the vote was still counted. 

 

The US entering Iraq didn't create ISIS.  We had stabilized the country and had it on the right track when Obama took over.  Read the article above and you'll see my point.  You naturally won't agree with it, but that's to be expected.  You're too ingrained in your ideology and the narrative you've got tattooed on the brain saying Bush is to blame for every ill in the world.  He definitely made a bunch of mistakes as president.  I'll concede that much.  But, there was legitimate purpose for going into Iraq whether you agree or not.

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

^^ that was well said FBT.


The UN knew of his weapons back in the 80's. Saddam said he had nuclear capability - see the interviews:


http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB279/


These are a fascinating read^^. What I took from those last interviews is that he tricked the UN, the US citizens, and our leaders all at once by SIMPLY SAYING HE HAD WMDs. We all believed him - which is terrorism at its best. He knew we would take him seriously.

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If anyone thinks you'll end ISIS by killing them you're wrong. Invading Iran didn't end Al Qeada. As hard as it is for those bent on revenge to understand, killing ISIS fighters only makes their children ISIS fighters in a few years. These fighters we're fighting now were orphaned 10 - 15 years ago by war. This is an inescapable propagation.

 

Regards................the Chiefjag

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If anyone thinks you'll end ISIS by killing them you're wrong. Invading Iran didn't end Al Qeada. As hard as it is for those bent on revenge to understand, killing ISIS fighters only makes their children ISIS fighters in a few years. These fighters we're fighting now were orphaned 10 - 15 years ago by war. This is an inescapable propagation.

 

Regards................the Chiefjag

So then we should just submit? Surrender? You can't diplomatically make peace with radical ideology. So, you either subjugate to them, or you kill them.

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

So then we should just submit? Surrender? You can't diplomatically make peace with radical ideology. So, you either subjugate to them, or you kill them.

Get out of their business? Leave their side of the world? Oh wait we have to support Israel and keep our oil interests alive.

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Get out of their business? Leave their side of the world? Oh wait we have to support Israel and keep our oil interests alive.

You're more ignorant than I thought if you really think leaving the Middle East will solve this. That's some kind of naïveté right there. It, I get it. From your safe space surrounded by unicorns and rainbows, it probably sounds like a great idea.

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

You're more ignorant than I thought if you really think leaving the Middle East will solve this. That's some kind of naïveté right there. It, I get it. From your safe space surrounded by unicorns and rainbows, it probably sounds like a great idea.

And yet for 2000 years nothing has worked. Ever! But hey Hey FBT knows what to do.


It's a war even the US will never win.

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And yet for 2000 years nothing has worked. Ever! But hey Hey FBT knows what to do.

It's a war even the US will never win.

Well, retreating to our safe space is a wonderful strategy.


Some kinda stupid.

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Well, retreating to our safe space is a wonderful strategy.


Some kinda stupid.

What's another 1000 years war with Muslims?

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What's another 1000 years war with Muslims?

If you think retreating is going to end their pursuit to rid the planet of the United States, feel free to hop a jet, fly over to the Middle East, wave a rainbow or white flag (your choice) and let's get this started, snowflake.

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

If you think retreating is going to end their pursuit to rid the planet of the United States, feel free to hop a jet, fly over to the Middle East, wave a rainbow or white flag (your choice) and let's get this started, snowflake.

No I am with you lets just fight to the end of time. Buy more attack helicopters. Money in my pocket.

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No I am with you lets just fight to the end of time. Buy more attack helicopters. Money in my pocket.

 

Fight or die, I know what I choose.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Fight or die, I know what I choose.

Dramatic much. The threat is extremely exaggerated.


I am shaking in my shoes. Wait no. No I am not.

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