All of these guys came out of the 2013 draft, but dave was only able to draft a mediocre safety. How is that not Daves fault?

 

 

There's a difference between a bust and a miss. I haven't called any of them a bust, even though Joeckel could fairly be called one and Bortles/Fowler have work to do to avoid it.

 

Regardless, he took Joeckel and Lane Johnson has become one of the best tackles in the league, He took Bortles and Carr has become one of the best young QBs in the league. He took Fowler and Beasley has become one of the best pass rushers in the league. He missed on all 3, badly. 

 

You are both assuming that the players who turned out better would have turned out better had Dave drafted them. Gus Bradley and his cushy "don't worry about wins, just get better" environment would have ruined Johnson, Carr, and Beasley too. As evidence, I offer up the fact that none of the Jags defensive draft picks showed improvement in their second year over their level of play as rookies. Telvin is the only one I can think of who didn't get worse, but his 2015 play was no better than his 2014 play. The only draft picks who improved in their second year were Bortles and Robinson, and that probably had mostly to do with Bortles spending time in a QB camp instead of with the coaches, and Jerry Sullivan.

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"Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?"

You are both assuming that the players who turned out better would have turned out better had Dave drafted them. Gus Bradley and his cushy "don't worry about wins, just get better" environment would have ruined Johnson, Carr, and Beasley too. As evidence, I offer up the fact that none of the Jags defensive draft picks showed improvement in their second year over their level of play as rookies. Telvin is the only one I can think of who didn't get worse, but his 2015 play was no better than his 2014 play. The only draft picks who improved in their second year were Bortles and Robinson, and that probably had mostly to do with Bortles spending time in a QB camp instead of with the coaches, and Jerry Sullivan.

 

Yep, the only Jags who got better were those who worked with coaches outside the organization, that's the biggest issue with those players.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

You are both assuming that the players who turned out better would have turned out better had Dave drafted them. Gus Bradley and his cushy "don't worry about wins, just get better" environment would have ruined Johnson, Carr, and Beasley too. As evidence, I offer up the fact that none of the Jags defensive draft picks showed improvement in their second year over their level of play as rookies. Telvin is the only one I can think of who didn't get worse, but his 2015 play was no better than his 2014 play. The only draft picks who improved in their second year were Bortles and Robinson, and that probably had mostly to do with Bortles spending time in a QB camp instead of with the coaches, and Jerry Sullivan.

Let me also add this to Derek carr case being in jacksonville he would have been behind this offensive line which had Luke Joeckel, Luke bowanko, Zane Beadles, and Austin Pazstor protecting him.

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You are both assuming that the players who turned out better would have turned out better had Dave drafted them. Gus Bradley and his cushy "don't worry about wins, just get better" environment would have ruined Johnson, Carr, and Beasley too. As evidence, I offer up the fact that none of the Jags defensive draft picks showed improvement in their second year over their level of play as rookies. Telvin is the only one I can think of who didn't get worse, but his 2015 play was no better than his 2014 play. The only draft picks who improved in their second year were Bortles and Robinson, and that probably had mostly to do with Bortles spending time in a QB camp instead of with the coaches, and Jerry Sullivan.

I guess you fall in line with Shad and the rest of the org that decided the problem was Gus, the whole Gus, and nothing but the Gus. We'll find out soon enough if that's true. 

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You are both assuming that the players who turned out better would have turned out better had Dave drafted them. Gus Bradley and his cushy "don't worry about wins, just get better" environment would have ruined Johnson, Carr, and Beasley too. As evidence, I offer up the fact that none of the Jags defensive draft picks showed improvement in their second year over their level of play as rookies. Telvin is the only one I can think of who didn't get worse, but his 2015 play was no better than his 2014 play. The only draft picks who improved in their second year were Bortles and Robinson, and that probably had mostly to do with Bortles spending time in a QB camp instead of with the coaches, and Jerry Sullivan.

maybe none of our picks showed improvement because they arent actually any good.

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maybe none of our picks showed improvement because they arent actually any good.

Maybe just maybe you're wrong about that and we will find out soon

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Worst draft class in franchise history is easily Harris' 2008 class. I agree though that Caldwell being retained is somewhat pointless going forward but for 2017 I kind of understand why he's still here.

 

Coughlin needs somebody that's from that building that knows the roster and personnel. We don't want him walking in their completely blind. 

 

With him being signed on though until at least 2020 I am not sure if he'll make it that long if Coughlin feels they can do better as a team. 14 - 48 is just as much as Caldwell's fault than it was Bradley's. Most fans get that. His free agency moves have been equally frustrating. 

 

Especially again this off-season with the release of Odrick and trading of Thomas to Miami. Just goes to show you that Caldwell clearly has a lot to learn in this business. 

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"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."

Worst draft class in franchise history is easily Harris' 2008 class. I agree though that Caldwell being retained is somewhat pointless going forward but for 2017 I kind of understand why he's still here.

 

Coughlin needs somebody that's from that building that knows the roster and personnel. We don't want him walking in their completely blind. 

 

With him being signed on though until at least 2020 I am not sure if he'll make it that long if Coughlin feels they can do better as a team. 14 - 48 is just as much as Caldwell's fault than it was Bradley's. Most fans get that. His free agency moves have been equally frustrating. 

 

Especially again this off-season with the release of Odrick and trading of Thomas to Miami. Just goes to show you that Caldwell clearly has a lot to learn in this business. 

I'm doubting this was DC's call. There is a new sheriff in town.

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Looking to troll? Don't bother, we supply our own.

 

 

I'm doubting this was DC's call. There is a new sheriff in town.

 

Odrick and Thomas didn't fit in with the post-Gus scheme. Thomas seemed to be a victim of the Gus culture, and also wasn't used correctly in the offense. Odrick was productive when he played, his problem was injuries.


 

I pointed out last year that Caldwell had always signed people to fit Gus' scheme until the 2016 free agency class where Jackson, Ivory, and Beachum would fit just about any scheme, and that meant that the post-Gus plan was already in motion this time last year.

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"Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?"

I guess you fall in line with Shad and the rest of the org that decided the problem was Gus, the whole Gus, and nothing but the Gus. We'll find out soon enough if that's true. 

 

 

maybe none of our picks showed improvement because they arent actually any good.

 

Not every pick will work out, even with good coaching. But in this case none improved and some (
Greene, Sanders, Cann and Colvin) who showed promise as rookies faded. It wasn't ALL Gus, but his culture had a lot to do with it.

 

Unlike Shack or Gene, there were no draft picks that jumped out as reaches at the time, and Colvin, Telvin, Greene, Bennett, Jack, and Day were considered steals.

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"Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?"

Odrick and Thomas didn't fit in with the post-Gus scheme. Thomas seemed to be a victim of the Gus culture, and also wasn't used correctly in the offense. Odrick was productive when he played, his problem was injuries.


 

I pointed out last year that Caldwell had always signed people to fit Gus' scheme until the 2016 free agency class where Jackson, Ivory, and Beachum would fit just about any scheme, and that meant that the post-Gus plan was already in motion this time last year.

 

I think the release of these players was influenced to some degree by Coughlin, but I think the moves were likely suggested by Marrone.

  And if TC/DM are on the same page about moving on, Dave isn't really going to mount much of a defense on keeping them. 

 

Marrone doesn't want an overpaid TE that barely blocks phoning in his routes. He's too old school to tolerate that, and Thomas did that too frequently from midseason up until his next injury. Coughlin said he was leaning on Marrone and Caldwell during the roster evaluation process because they knew so much more about this team than he. It doesn't seem a stretch that Marrone would be vocal about Thomas trotting through routes when they got around to discussing tight ends. Watching tape of that probably sent steam flying from Coughlin's ears. 

 

Odrick went out of his way not to be a "team guy" and that had to leave a sour taste on Marrone and TC. Again, old school guys hate that stuff. 

Given the potential tweaks to the defense and the big end possibly being foregone for a more traditional end  -- it's no shock that they cleared some cap room on Odrick either.  So, yes, scheme is probably an issue there in addition to the TC/Marrone factor. 

 

I find the vast majority of the Dave hate in this thread to be  ill-informed and nonsensical. That's OK - the team has struggled enough that he deserves criticism and fans don't often make perfect sense.  It's just that many posters display an obvious lack of understanding of the General Manager's job and/or aren't able to objectively compare Dave to other GMs around the league.

 

 But -  for those of you that don't like him running the Jaguars  -take note that these two moves at least signify some departure from his standard modus operandi in terms of moving on from underperforming players. That should be a good sign for all fans regardless of your take on Caldwell, IMO. 

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Shack was a good GM.  He is a victim of the Owner meddling in football operations.  Wayne got swayed by the swing for the fences mentality that trapped him in 1999.  I liked listening to Shack's interviews as well.  2008 draft was just unfortunate and we kept the wrong guy in Gene Smith.

 

The Gene Smith small school stuff is so darn laughable now.  Oh how I miss these

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AQAmhsBcIw

 

this one makes me laugh so hard I cry...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_DpUA4V_3o

I wouldnt say he was a good GM, Id say he was decent at his job, made the team pretty competitive overall ( cant say that for anything since him), who screwed up in the end. I think after 2007, the defense got old and needed a retooling, they signed Garrard to a mega contract for being a game manager and went out and broke the bank for an overrated WR and a bad attitude CB. Then they traded the future of the franchise away to select another in the long line of first round busts for the Jaguars in Derrick Harvey. Then went on to completely botch the rest of the draft with more players who simply were not good. 

 

Shack was fired and probably rightfully so. But they should of cleaned house with the entire front office, instead, because Weaver was looking to sell the team, he decided to keep it in house and he kept on his long time friend, aid and one of the most trusted people within the Organization who was here since day in Gene Smith. We all know how that tale ended. 

 

If anything, I think you can blame Wayne Weaver for being inept in the end for why the Jaguars have struggled so much since 2007. Clearly, his mind wasn't with the team and he wanted to get out of the NFL, he simply gave up and went with the cheapest route possible and let the team go to rot. 

 

Shack was okay, he has a much worse reputation then he should, but at the same time, he did screw up royally in the end with bad contracts, bad FA signings, gave the backup to his bust first round QB a mega contract and traded the teams future away for another 1st round bust. He was rightfully fired, but the people up top should of seen how bad things got and cleaned house. However, it seems there was more to the story then what we were led on to believe. Weaver was looking to get out and clearly, 2008 on wasn't about the Jaguars, it was about finding a new owner for the city. 

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You are both assuming that the players who turned out better would have turned out better had Dave drafted them. Gus Bradley and his cushy "don't worry about wins, just get better" environment would have ruined Johnson, Carr, and Beasley too. As evidence, I offer up the fact that none of the Jags defensive draft picks showed improvement in their second year over their level of play as rookies. Telvin is the only one I can think of who didn't get worse, but his 2015 play was no better than his 2014 play. The only draft picks who improved in their second year were Bortles and Robinson, and that probably had mostly to do with Bortles spending time in a QB camp instead of with the coaches, and Jerry Sullivan.

Telvin plays next to Poz BTW, a guy most players say is essentially a coach in his own right. 

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If anything, I think you can blame Wayne Weaver for being inept in the end for why the Jaguars have struggled so much since 2007. Clearly, his mind wasn't with the team and he wanted to get out of the NFL, he simply gave up and went with the cheapest route possible and let the team go to rot. 

 

Shack was okay, he has a much worse reputation then he should, but at the same time, he did screw up royally in the end with bad contracts, bad FA signings, gave the backup to his bust first round QB a mega contract and traded the teams future away for another 1st round bust. He was rightfully fired, but the people up top should of seen how bad things got and cleaned house. However, it seems there was more to the story then what we were led on to believe. Weaver was looking to get out and clearly, 2008 on wasn't about the Jaguars, it was about finding a new owner for the city. 

 

I do blame Wayne Weaver for 2008 and the knee jerk reaction to being "close" in 2007.  You are right to say that I'm being a tad too rose colored glasses with Shack.

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Birth of the Franchise - November 30, 1993
Death of the Franchise - November 29, 2011

Fans deserve better. Thanks for all the good times too many are in the past.

I do blame Wayne Weaver for 2008 and the knee jerk reaction to being "close" in 2007.  You are right to say that I'm being a tad too rose colored glasses with Shack.

I do not.  If we drafted better in 2008 who knows? 

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Bleeding Teal since 1995. The Icon Teal Time Radio aka ctjags

  #Gojags

I do not.  If we drafted better in 2008 who knows? 

 

We do know ...   We had 1999 to show what swinging for the fences gets you (Cap Troubles, Talent Issues).

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Birth of the Franchise - November 30, 1993
Death of the Franchise - November 29, 2011

Fans deserve better. Thanks for all the good times too many are in the past.

You are both assuming that the players who turned out better would have turned out better had Dave drafted them. Gus Bradley and his cushy "don't worry about wins, just get better" environment would have ruined Johnson, Carr, and Beasley too. As evidence, I offer up the fact that none of the Jags defensive draft picks showed improvement in their second year over their level of play as rookies. Telvin is the only one I can think of who didn't get worse, but his 2015 play was no better than his 2014 play. The only draft picks who improved in their second year were Bortles and Robinson, and that probably had mostly to do with Bortles spending time in a QB camp instead of with the coaches, and Jerry Sullivan.

Who decided to keep lame duck gus around?  Caldwell was on board

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We do know ... We had 1999 to show what swinging for the fences gets you (Cap Troubles, Talent Issues).

Yes, but if the tacks did not cheat to beat us. Stealing our playbook no one would of cared.


Cause most every superbowl team is basically gutted.

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Bleeding Teal since 1995. The Icon Teal Time Radio aka ctjags

  #Gojags

Yes, but if the tacks did not cheat to beat us. Stealing our playbook no one would of cared.


Cause most every superbowl team is basically gutted.

They stole the book? Didn't know that. Do tell.

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Success is a journey, not a destination.  Go all out Mighty Jaguars.

Caldwells 2015 free agents

• S Sergio Brown, signed on March 11, 2015.^[1]
  
• CB Davon House, signed on March 11, 2015.^[1]
  
• DT Jared Odrick, signed on March 11, 2015.^[1]
  
• OT Jermey Parnell, signed on March 11, 2015.^[1]
  
• LB Dan Skuta, signed on March 11, 2015.^[1]
  
• TE Julius Thomas, signed on March 11, 2015.^[1]
  
• C Stefen Wisniewski, signed on April 18, 2015
  

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