I have said many times that I don't know how we will effectively use Kirk and Engram at the same time. That =/= doomed passing game. It does likely mean that it won't be as good as it could be if our top WR could play outside effectively or if our top TE could play inline effectively. But it doesn't mean doomed, nor do i think an honest interpretation of what I have been saying could be interpreted as that.

I'm curious as to how you got so intimate with Kirk's skill set? You seem to know it better than him lol. At least give him the grace of an offseason to prepare for playing outside.

Not to mention: He may not be asked to play outside. Coach may intend to use him as a Welker. The coach may value a slot receiver as his #1.

I know as casuals we think ourselves well informed on the gameplan and player abilities but christ....looking at your posts I'm wondering if Kirk and Engram have worked out for you in private. Just play your position, sit back, and at least see what training camp shows the actual coordinators and coaches. Or maybe they should skip practice and just ask you for your evaluation?

We don't need to give him the grace of an offseason to prepare for playing outside. He played primarily outside his first 3 seasons, and his numbers were very not good...traditional or advanced. I believe just over 11 routes per catch and a very subpar 1.1 yards per route run from the outside. Last year was his first year as a primary slot, and his routes per catch plummeted to 5 and a half while his yards per route jumped to a very good 1.8. We have over a thousand of snaps of evidence of both.

This makes perfect sense when you look at his traits. He is small, linearly decently fast, and among the least agile WRs in the game. That lines up very nicely with a guy who gets bullied by outside corners but can be effective as a field stretching slot where he can't get jammed and gets to face off vs smaller nickelbacks or less athletic LB/S.

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I'm curious as to how you got so intimate with Kirk's skill set? You seem to know it better than him lol. At least give him the grace of an offseason to prepare for playing outside.

Not to mention: He may not be asked to play outside. Coach may intend to use him as a Welker. The coach may value a slot receiver as his #1.

I know as casuals we think ourselves well informed on the gameplan and player abilities but christ....looking at your posts I'm wondering if Kirk and Engram have worked out for you in private. Just play your position, sit back, and at least see what training camp shows the actual coordinators and coaches. Or maybe they should skip practice and just ask you for your evaluation?

We don't need to give him the grace of an offseason to prepare for playing outside. He played primarily outside his first 3 seasons, and his numbers were very not good...traditional or advanced. I believe just over 11 routes per catch and a very subpar 1.1 yards per route run from the outside. Last year was his first year as a primary slot, and his routes per catch plummeted to 5 and a half while his yards per route jumped to a very good 1.8. We have over a thousand of snaps of evidence of both.

This makes perfect sense when you look at his traits. He is small, linearly decently fast, and among the least agile WRs in the game. That lines up very nicely with a guy who gets bullied by outside corners but can be effective as a field stretching slot where he can't get jammed and gets to face off vs smaller nickelbacks or less athletic LB/S.

If I'm not mistaken 2 of his 3 years he was wr3. He was playing with Fitzgerald and Hopkins.

He isn't small, he's not as tall as some others but he weighs 200 lbs. Thats more than Chark, Lamb, and some other outside receivers. Height doesnt help you get off the jam. Speed and strength does. If he wasn't agile he wouldn't have been good in the slot since that position takes more agility.

But the cherry on top is, we don't know if the coach has plans to line him up outside? Again the plan may be to use him as a Welker. May plan to send the TEs vertical to clear out?

As a fan we don't know what the game plan is. Heck the coach may not have the final game plan until they see what players look like during practice.

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We don't need to give him the grace of an offseason to prepare for playing outside. He played primarily outside his first 3 seasons, and his numbers were very not good...traditional or advanced. I believe just over 11 routes per catch and a very subpar 1.1 yards per route run from the outside. Last year was his first year as a primary slot, and his routes per catch plummeted to 5 and a half while his yards per route jumped to a very good 1.8. We have over a thousand of snaps of evidence of both.

This makes perfect sense when you look at his traits. He is small, linearly decently fast, and among the least agile WRs in the game. That lines up very nicely with a guy who gets bullied by outside corners but can be effective as a field stretching slot where he can't get jammed and gets to face off vs smaller nickelbacks or less athletic LB/S.

If I'm not mistaken 2 of his 3 years he was wr3. He was playing with Fitzgerald and Hopkins.

He isn't small, he's not as tall as some others but he weighs 200 lbs. Thats more than Chark, Lamb, and some other outside receivers. Height doesnt help you get off the jam. Speed and strength does. If he wasn't agile he wouldn't have been good in the slot since that position takes more agility.

Fitz played the slot for the Cardinals late in his career not Kirk.

I said Kirk was a vertical slot. He's not a Welker or Edelman type. The first real prototype for the nearly full time vertical slot was Victor Cruz. Think along those lines and that's about the type of player Kirk is.

I don't know what the coaches are going to decide to do, but we saw how the Cardinals used him for four seasons and he was bad for the 3 where he was mostly outside and good for the 1 where he was mostly slot.

I agree the coaches very well may use him incorrectly.

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If I'm not mistaken 2 of his 3 years he was wr3. He was playing with Fitzgerald and Hopkins.

He isn't small, he's not as tall as some others but he weighs 200 lbs. Thats more than Chark, Lamb, and some other outside receivers. Height doesnt help you get off the jam. Speed and strength does. If he wasn't agile he wouldn't have been good in the slot since that position takes more agility.

Fitz played the slot for the Cardinals late in his career not Kirk.

I said Kirk was a vertical slot. He's not a Welker or Edelman type. The first real prototype for the nearly full time vertical slot was Victor Cruz. Think along those lines and that's about the type of player Kirk is.

I don't know what the coaches are going to decide to do, but we saw how the Cardinals used him for four seasons and he was bad for the 3 where he was mostly outside and good for the 1 where he was mostly slot.

I agree the coaches very well may use him incorrectly.

Who are you agreeing with exactly? 
Yourself? 

LOL

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We don't need to give him the grace of an offseason to prepare for playing outside. He played primarily outside his first 3 seasons, and his numbers were very not good...traditional or advanced. I believe just over 11 routes per catch and a very subpar 1.1 yards per route run from the outside. Last year was his first year as a primary slot, and his routes per catch plummeted to 5 and a half while his yards per route jumped to a very good 1.8. We have over a thousand of snaps of evidence of both.

This makes perfect sense when you look at his traits. He is small, linearly decently fast, and among the least agile WRs in the game. That lines up very nicely with a guy who gets bullied by outside corners but can be effective as a field stretching slot where he can't get jammed and gets to face off vs smaller nickelbacks or less athletic LB/S.

If I'm not mistaken 2 of his 3 years he was wr3. He was playing with Fitzgerald and Hopkins.

He isn't small, he's not as tall as some others but he weighs 200 lbs. Thats more than Chark, Lamb, and some other outside receivers. Height doesnt help you get off the jam. Speed and strength does. If he wasn't agile he wouldn't have been good in the slot since that position takes more agility.

But the cherry on top is, we don't know if the coach has plans to line him up outside? Again the plan may be to use him as a Welker. May plan to send the TEs vertical to clear out?

As a fan we don't know what the game plan is. Heck the coach may not have the final game plan until they see what players look like during practice.

This is kinda what I saw when looking over the team's performance each year.

'18 - bad team, QBs were Josh Rosen (13 games) and outer husk of what used to be Sam Bradford (3 games). Kirk had 43 for 590 in 12 games (7 started). For perspective, Fitz led the team with 69/734 in 16 games (all started). 
'19 - new coach, new QB. Kirk 68 for 709 (13g/13s), Fitz 75/804 (16g/16s)
'20 - Hopkins trade, did he steal stats from the others? Nuk 115/1407, Kirk 48/621 (14g/10s), Fitz 54/409
'21 - assuming injuries skew a lot of starts/stats - Kirk 77/982 (17g/11s), Nuk 42/572 (10g/10s), AJ Green 54/848 (16g/9s), Moore 54/435

It seems to me in a number of years, he's performing at the level of better receivers around him, or there's other factors that may be influencing stats. I'm not sweating things until we see receivers running into each other on the regular, hopefully that was just a one-season adventure.

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Kirk is what he is... a slot guy.

How does that help a team that is without a #1? Hell, not even a respectable #2... and we're excited about #3?

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I can't wait to see what Doug Pederson cooks up with the 2 TE sets including Kirk, personally. I don't believe Kirk's and Engram's skillsets actually disparage one another.

Watching Kirk's 2021 cut-ups he does indeed run a solid number of vertical routes from the slot. (He runs plenty of stuff that requires some "agility" to make good breaks and get open too, but that's a different convo) His ability to get open deep from the slot make him interesting as a complement to multiple TE sets because he'll help clear out space for the TE's and backs to get open underneath whenever he draws safety help. If the Y position is occupied by a TE, Kirk can absolutely still have this same effect for the offense by running the vertical route from the Z position instead of the Y.
In fact, I saw him run deep from the Z in the Rams game against our newly acquired DB and convert with a catch on the sideline.
Will he be less effective getting open running verts from the Z instead of the Y? I hope we get to find out. I don't think he'll struggle much from the Z if they use him there sparingly and strategically - and at the least should help clear an area of the field for TE/RB receiving routes.

I think 12 personnel sets with the Z and X on one side of the formation together could be a cool thing to be creative with given our roster. Especially if we land an X in the draft that can contribute at a "solid" level in year one.

I also don't think the statistics being quoted in this and other threads regarding Kirk's (lack of) production from X or Z take in to account the personnel and play calling factors around him enough to paint an accurate picture of his ability to be versatile.
He should absolutely be featured in the slot, but to assume he can't produce outside of the Y position is a step too far for me based on all the cut-ups I've watched the past two days. (about 20 games)

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Kirk is what he is... a slot guy.

How does that help a team that is without a #1? Hell, not even a respectable #2... and we're excited about #3?

#1 has nothing to do with what position a WR plays.  I guess Kupp isn't a #1 since he's 'only a slot guy'.

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Kirk is what he is... a slot guy.

How does that help a team that is without a #1? Hell, not even a respectable #2... and we're excited about #3?

#1 has nothing to do with what position a WR plays.  I guess Kupp isn't a #1 since he's 'only a slot guy'.

Yea, it does...

Because without an X and Y guess who covers your best player in the slot? An actual cornerback. While your x and Y (who SUCK) are covered by the nickel because it doesn't matter because THEY SUCK

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Kirk is what he is... a slot guy.

How does that help a team that is without a #1? Hell, not even a respectable #2... and we're excited about #3?

#1 has nothing to do with what position a WR plays.  I guess Kupp isn't a #1 since he's 'only a slot guy'.

Correct.

Conflating a receiver's X,Y, or Z position with #1, #2 , or #3 just won't work. 

Also - there are tons of examples out there of teams with no "#1" receiver at the X or Z spot being successful. 

Pretty sure the patriots won their division 4 years in a row that way in the 20-Teens.

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#1 has nothing to do with what position a WR plays.  I guess Kupp isn't a #1 since he's 'only a slot guy'.

Yea, it does...

Because without an X and Y guess who covers your best player in the slot? An actual cornerback. While your x and Y (who SUCK) are covered by the nickel because it doesn't matter because THEY SUCK

Of the 17 teams the Jags will face this year, how many of them do you think will send their #1 CB inside to cover Kirk in the slot?   

Out of those that make that adjustment, how many of those CB1's do you think may not be quite as well suited to covering the middle of the field in traffic when they are accustomed to playing boundary technique on a large percentage of their snaps?

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#1 has nothing to do with what position a WR plays.  I guess Kupp isn't a #1 since he's 'only a slot guy'.

Yea, it does...

Because without an X and Y guess who covers your best player in the slot? An actual cornerback. While your x and Y (who SUCK) are covered by the nickel because it doesn't matter because THEY SUCK

So you agree, #1 has nothing to do with what position a WR plays.  Thanks.

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Yea, it does...

Because without an X and Y guess who covers your best player in the slot? An actual cornerback. While your x and Y (who SUCK) are covered by the nickel because it doesn't matter because THEY SUCK

Of the 17 teams the Jags will face this year, how many of them do you think will send their #1 CB inside to cover Kirk in the slot?   

Out of those that make that adjustment, how many of those CB1's do you think may not be quite as well suited to covering the middle of the field in traffic when they are accustomed to playing boundary technique on a large percentage of their snaps?

Also more teams are moving to match up zone coverage concepts rather than playing Man. Can't really re-align space responsibilities in that system on the fly.

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Of the 17 teams the Jags will face this year, how many of them do you think will send their #1 CB inside to cover Kirk in the slot?   

Out of those that make that adjustment, how many of those CB1's do you think may not be quite as well suited to covering the middle of the field in traffic when they are accustomed to playing boundary technique on a large percentage of their snaps?

Also more teams are moving to match up zone coverage concepts rather than playing Man. Can't really re-align space responsibilities in that system on the fly.

And if you watch Kirk's tape - half of his work in the slot is knowing how to sit down quickly in the soft spots of zone coverage and move the sticks with an easy completion.  Lots of plays like that from his '21 cut-ups.

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We should have gotten Allen Robinson.. still can't believe he got paid so little by LA.

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We should have gotten Allen Robinson.. still can't believe he got paid so little by LA.

Allen Robinson had a really bad year in 2021.  That may have something to do with it.

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We should have gotten Allen Robinson.. still can't believe he got paid so little by LA.

Considering the Rams are in a big market,are the reigning Super Bowl champs, and Stafford is by far the best QB he's ever played with, I can see how he'd want to sign a below market deal.  But Marty hit the nail on the head.  His market got suppressed when he had such a bad year last year.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Very excited for the Engram pickup with Pedersen as HC. Ertz led the eagles in receiving basically every yr Pedersen was there. I don't think it's crazy to say Engram, if healthy, could end up leading jags in receiving this season is it?

Seems like a good sneaky late round sleeper pickup for fantasy football too. Definitely added him to my sleeper list.

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Very excited for the Engram pickup with Pedersen as HC. Ertz led the eagles in receiving basically every yr Pedersen was there. I don't think it's crazy to say Engram, if healthy, could end up leading jags in receiving this season is it?

Seems like a good sneaky late round sleeper pickup for fantasy football too. Definitely added him to my sleeper list.

Given Pederson's TE production in Philly and the way they spread the ball around in general - I wouldn't be surprised if the TE room collectively contributes over 1000 yards receiving. Hopefully a good bit more. 

The RB room could collectively add in another 600-800. He likes to throw to backs as well, and our top 4 right now can all catch the ball pretty well.  They've already got Etienne running WR routes in OTAs.

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Very excited for the Engram pickup with Pedersen as HC. Ertz led the eagles in receiving basically every yr Pedersen was there. I don't think it's crazy to say Engram, if healthy, could end up leading jags in receiving this season is it?

Seems like a good sneaky late round sleeper pickup for fantasy football too. Definitely added him to my sleeper list.

If the TE leads the team in receiving after what we spent on WRs, that would be dire.

I guess I know too many Giants fans to get this hyped about Engram. I'm tempering expectation.

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