(07-16-2019, 08:26 PM)B2hibry Wrote:

(07-16-2019, 08:18 PM)Bullseye Wrote: (numbering added)

1.  No, I do not believe the flag to which you refer is indeed the confederate flag and indeed racist because that's what CNN told me.  I know the flag is one of many the confederacy used to represent them at one point or another, and they can be seen here.  http://www.usflag.org/confederate.stars.and.bars.html  The Confederacy, in the various declarations of secession of Confederate states and Vice President Alexander Stephens' "Cornerstone of the Confederacy expressly adopted racist ideals as the basis for secession.  In relevant part Stephens states...


  (Emphasis added)

The complete text of his speech may be found here.  https://teachingamericanhistory.org/libr...ne-speech/

Stephens uttered those words more than a century before CNN came into existence.  Viewing CNN is not a prerequisite to discovering this text, nor is it a requirement to discern the horrific import of these words.  Only a reasonable amount of literacy and a willingness to learn the truth is needed.

Since the Confederacy was founded-by its own admissions and writings-upon principles of white supremacy and anti black racism, any flags they willingly chose to represent them (including the flag you reference) inevitably represent the noxious and repugnant ideals upon which the Confederacy was founded.  Any figures who fought to advance those hateful and oppressive ideals are also linked to that racism, no matter how many times triggered conservatives stamp their feet about the constraints of political correctness.  No matter how much revisionist history Confederate apologists employ, no matter how many Jedi mind tricks the right use to convince the masses of its benevolence, a clear, sober, and honest examination of history precludes a divorce of the various flags of the Confederacy from the racist principles that inspired its founding.    I defy ANY of you on here-in fact, invite a guest poster if you must-to provide a cogent, logical and factual argument explaining why flags the confederacy willingly chose to represent them should be separated from those ideals.  

2.  I will assume we are in agreement that, flaws and all, this is a great country. With that common baseline established for the moment, would you agree that a great country like ours is entitled to enforce its own laws?  I would assume so given that is a basis for the crackdown along the Southern border.  What, then, is your take on the whole Bundy militia saga?  To refresh, Cliven Bundy was a rancher whom the government alleged was grazing his cattle on federal lands, subjecting him to grazing fees, which he did not pay for years.  When the Federal government finally tried to collect, the Bundy militia, with weapons drawn on federal law enforcement, resisted.  Were these patriots?  Were these heroes?  Or should they have been invited to leave the country?

Will you condemn the Democratic Party for their racist pillars, past and present? I mean, since we are separating from ideals and all.

Sure.

The Democratic party, up until the 1960s, was political home to racist segregationists who advanced repugnant policies designed to perpetuate oppression of African Americans and other minorities.  The Democrats who were so aligned, and the party that tolerated them were spectacularly wrong then.  Until that point, they were equally as repugnant as their Confederate predecessors.

However, there is an important distinction between the Confederacy and the Democratic party.

The Confederacy never repented for the evils they perpetuated.  For the entirety of its existence, the Confederacy fought AGAINST the freedom and equality of African Americans.  There is no indicia the Confederacy ever rescinded or renounced their beliefs of white supremacy, either rhetorically or in their actions.

However, the Democratic party evolved over time to become the party who fought for Civil rights for minorities, starting with the Kennedy administration and continuing with Lyndon Johnson's signing of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.  Johnson predicted the Democratic party has lost the South for a generation with that signing.  Since then, there has been an ideological shift in the parties.  Segregationists who no longer felt the Democratic party represented their views defected to the Republican party over the next few years.  The South, which was traditionally solidly democratic, has now aligned itself with the Republican party.  Meanwhile, the Democratic party has cultivated many African American political figures over the years, including Former President Barack Obama.  The current Republican party, bearing little resemblance to the "Party of Lincoln" has done nothing of the sort.

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