Quote:Hey BiffSkppy,

 

I wrote this whole thing in response and it is now floating out there in the ether of accidental deletion land...  

 

Let me just say that I agree in part that individuals are also responsible.  But the power of the individual comes from gaining the acceptance via culture.  I don't have a sociological background, but I would submit to you that a culture of violence and barbarism, while ultimately acted upon by at the individual level usually has a "vanguard" (to go back to politics) that usually helps propel those group into a certain direction.  Generally a subset of the culture made up of a smaller group of individuals will move a culture in a certain direction.  This can be seen in history, from the Bolshevicks, to the Nazis, to the Iranian Revolution.  While there generally tends to be an individual "leader" the driver is the smaller subset, because in my mind, the individual would be shouted down if not for his supporters.  

 

Now speaking of Sharia...  I've been waiting for a revolution where Iranians take back thier country from the theocracy that runs it.  But, I don't think it's that simple.  A revolution is messy, and as we've seen with Egypt, Yemen, and Syria, it can do more harm than good.  However, there is a slow movement in Iran towards westernization.  As the theocracy is aging and dying of the youth of Iran that are now in thier 30's and 40's since the revolution are raising kids that are not into rule by religion.  A slow progression from hyper conservatism to more liberal and western ideas is how Iran has been moving since the death of the Ayatollah.

 

To me, this is far more beneficial of a movement than good ole 'Murricah getting involved like we did with Iraq.  

 

The bottom line, at least in my mind is that violoence and war is usually not the best approach to correcting things.  Of course, in Iraq and Syria, it looks like we don't have a choice because we broke it.  But I think it's best to leave Iran to it's own evolution.  

 

Hate when that happens. While I love the idea of discussion boards, the tech still needs a bit of improvement. 

 

Also, When you can't get the whole thread, you forget what has happened before sometimes, like in this case. :-) Whatever you said that I replied to with individual, I probably have some agreement with as well. For example, I ascribe some merit to the whole Chomsky/Herman model of media relations, although I don't think it is as conscious a process as sometimes explained. And yes, there needs to be a sufficient mass, otherwise you don't really get the momentum. Part of why I stress individuals can be seen from something Jagibelieve (I think) said as a taking away point from the thread, 'When all else fails, blame Bush'. Umm, no, we elected him. We are responsible for our society, even if you believe in a cultural elite, left or right wing media co-option, or lizard people. </rant>

 

I hope you are right about Iran. The Pew Research earlier in the thread showed that younger survey respondents were actually more conservative on some Sharia issues, so that is concerning, but we will see.

 

Re Iraq, I presume you mean GW2, as I think GW1 was one of those rare cases where violence is necessary and generally accepted. We could drill down with issues of collateral damage and just war theory, but I digress. I only bring it up because I do believe that America can have a positive influence, but I don't think we usually have anywhere near a level of public discourse that is substantive enough to guide our policies. GW2 helped to demonstrate that to me. Heck, this thread is a pretty good example. You could probably boil it down to about three our four main issues, but even getting clear and focused discussion by more than two or three people is difficult. And even the rather slipshod discussion here is more substantive that most mass media coverage I have seen. I am encouraged by some elements, such as the sharing of info (shout out to realtorpat for the pbs doc link) and the discussion of views between people who seem to have divergent opinions (thanks, jj). But even that seems to tail off, and the discussions never seem to accomplish much of substance. </rant>

 

 

TLDR version - America - BRILLIANT design, founding fathers were cool, we as citizens are too damned lazy to make democracy work well.

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