Quote:You missed the whole point. I think you're so concerned with being seen as more righteous than the rest of us you don't get it.

 

Yes, sometimes the ends justify the means. Without any doubt. Some honorable Americans (and allies) decided civilians must die to defeat Nazism.

 

Terror as a tactic in Mandela's case was certainly justified. What makes him a hero was the fact that as a victor he didn't take revenge and encourage massive bloodletting, which would have been quite easy to do.

 

Mandela took the hard path, and his country is much better for it.

 

You know you've lost the debate when you make this about Me and not Mendela. We simply disagree I never see acts of terror as acceptable nor do I see them as necessary. You're one of the ends justify the means guys fine, I'm one of those the means defines the end guys. The Nobility of a cause does not excuse any actions used to achieve that cause.

 

Quote:Hitler also had the destruction of an entire demographic of people in mind. You'd be stupid to say the same about Mandela.

 

It's incredibly foolish of you to even compare Hitler to Nelson Mandela. They're nothing alike.

 

Mandela may not have been a hero to you, but he's arguably the most important figure in South Africa's history, and he saved that country from tearing itself apart by just about any means. 

 

Also, no one needs to know who you hold or praise as a hero to know they're indirectly responsible for the loss of life, the same thing you're condemning Mandela for.

 

Even Gandhi can be condemned. Know and understand that it's never as black and white as you make it seem.

 

I'm not comparing Mendela to Hitler at all, I'm pointing out the flaw in your argument that whatever Mendela did can be overlooked because he had the "good of his poeple" in mind. You can say almost ANY dictator, liberator, terrorist, tyrant and so on had the good of their people in mind, that NEVER excuses acts of an individual or organization.

 

Quote:The problem is that your accusations are full of holes. You posted that Nelson Mandela plead guilty to 156 acts of terrorism against civilians, when in fact he plead not guilty to the only four charges brought against him in the trial that eventually sent him to prison. None of the four charges included any accusations that he targeted civilians. Mandela later acknowledged that he was involved in acts of sabotage against military and logistical targets, specifically to minimize the chances of collateral civilian casualties.

 

Every one of the ANC attacks you cited earlier, in which civilians were clearly targeted, occurred well after Mandela had been imprisoned. I can find no evidence outside of conspiracy sites (and most of those make circumstantial cases) that he was directing events from prison, especially given the difference in those attacks from the ones for which Mandela was convicted.

 

As for the video of him singing "kill the whites", well I'm skeptical. First of all, there were a few whites allegedly singing about killing themselves, and I found some alternate translations that made the song more figurative and political. Anyway, from what I could see, Mandela wasn't singing, for what that's worth.

 

Finally, put yourself in the place of a black man in South Africa during the 50s - 80s. The oppression was so systemic, so stacked against non-whites. Much more so than the Jim Crow era of our history. At least Dr. King, Thurgood Marshall and the rest of the heroic civil rights fighters had a federal court system to use in their peaceful fight against oppression. That wasn't available in the apartheid system of South Africa. The white minority had a stranglehold on the country. There came a point where violence was the only method that would work.

 

You seem to be a freedom loving individual. Where would you draw the line?

 

The video is a documentary from the BBC I believe, I've seen it on numerous sites from numerous accounts, never once seen anyone deny it's authenticity, if you have another version I'd be curious to see it.

 

As for Mendela being in prison while these "acts of terror" where committed you have to at the very least admit he set the stage with the founding of the ANC. While in prison his wife led the charge of most Necklacing that took place during this period. the Military arm of the ANC that HE co-founded carried out the bombings on CIVILIAN targets, and year after year he was offered release if he would simply denounce the acts of HIS wife and HIS organization, he refused every year. If I load my firearm, pull the charging handle, take off the safety, give it to an unstable, violent and angry mob do I hold no responsibility in their actions? You can argue he was in prison peacefully awaiting his day, you can argue he was pulling strings from inside the prison but you can't argue that he at the very least loaded the charge and placed the powder keg stepped away and watched his organization light the fuse.

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