(09-20-2021, 05:05 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: I don't think Trump wanted to do good for the sake of goodness. He's a narcissist. I think he wanted the people to love him, so he did what he thought would make them love him.

You seem to struggle separating the entertainer Trump from the businessman Trump. The difference between MOST Trump supporters and MOST consumers of MSM is that Trump supporters didn't take his rhetoric seriously, which is not true of the people that consume MSM. There was a survey done in 2016 that showed that most Trump supporters didn't take Trump literally, but they did take him seriously, meaning they didn't have expectations about HOW he would accomplish his goals, only that he would TRY to accomplish his goals. By contrast, most Democrats took Trump literally, but not seriously. This includes the MSM. The MSM shaped the narrative that you digested, and it shows in your hatred of the dude. 

I didn't watch all 3 videos, because I'm assuming they are redundant, but in the first video you posted, Trump said Mexico was going to ENJOY paying for the wall. Do you think his supporters thought he was being literal? Do you REALLY think he believed Mexico was going to enjoy paying for the wall? Really? No. So why do you insist that he was literally going to make them write a check? Just because he said it at a rally where he's entertaining his supporters? If they did write him a check, would you be here saying, "but they didn't ENJOY it!" That would be ridiculous. 

Entertainer Trump said outlandish things. However, Businessman Trump has always said the same thing since 2015:

https://web.archive.org/web/201604090642...ion-reform

Quote:Mexico must pay for the wall and, until they do, the United States will, among other things: impound all remittance payments derived from illegal wages; increase fees on all temporary visas issued to Mexican CEOs and diplomats (and if necessary cancel them); increase fees on all border crossing cards – of which we issue about 1 million to Mexican nationals each year (a major source of visa overstays); increase fees on all NAFTA worker visas from Mexico (another major source of overstays); and increase fees at ports of entry to the United States from Mexico [Tariffs and foreign aid cuts are also options].  We will not be taken advantage of anymore.

Not one of those methods listed by his campaign involved Mexico writing a check. Did he get all of the money for the wall? Absolutely not. Did he attempt to do those things mentioned in his campaign? Absolutely. 

These were his 5 campaign promises:

1) build the wall, 2) clean the swamp, 3) fix trade policy with China, 4) fix illegal immigration, 5) repeal and replace Obamacare.

1) He put up 450 miles of wall despite not having control of the House. 
2) He did NOT clean the swamp, but he definitely exposed it. People are more aware of the corruption in DC than ever. Even though it didn't get cleaned out, he was constantly attacking the system.
3) He definitely put pressure on China, and I believe he was on the verge of winning the trade war (as do many experts). 
4) He definitely improved illegal immigration; I think this is inarguable
5) He repealed Obamacare. He didn't replace it. 

Of his campaign promises, he attempted to do 4.5 out of 5. He succeeded in #4, and was on track to accomplish #1 and #3 during his second term. Even though he didn't replace Obamacare, again, you fail to recognize democrats opposition to those matters. He was never going to do that. The difference between us is that I think he could have been easily persuaded by democrats and you don't. This is because you don't seem to give enough credit to the power dynamics in DC. Neither party will compromise anymore because they don't want the other party to get the credit. This is NOT a Trump only problem. He only highlighted it.

I also find it odd that you are chastising the man for not completing the wall when he had FIERCE opposition in DC and still managed to complete 1/4 of it. That's actually impressive, but you are spinning it like he is a liar. How many Presidents accomplish a fraction of what they want to do with that kind of opposition? Is Barrack Obama a liar for his healthcare? Do you call him a liar because Obamacare failed? No. You recognize that he tried to accomplish something that ultimately failed because of his opposition (I would argue it failed because it catered to corporate interests, but that's for another time). Why don't you have that same grace for Trump? 

As for the healthcare thing, you are probably right. Keep in mind that most Trump supporters were ok with him just rolling back Obamacare because they saw it as an improvement. That was enough for his base to not feel like he's a liar. I can see if moderates were expecting something great there, but the simple truth is that our healthcare system is woefully inadequate, and it's going to take someone much smarter than Trump to fix it. And, most importantly, it's going to take politicians who are acting in the interest of the people and not corporations.

I don't really care to argue the merits of that, so if you want a concession there, take it. I still think it's wholly inadequate to demagogue Trump over one lofty campaign promise that was NEVER his focus. You can take that one and run with it if you want. He attempted to fulfill more campaign promises than any other President that I can remember. 

Ultimately, my problem is less with your frustration with Trump and more that you are not seemingly equally as incensed at the marriage of corporations to our journalists and politicians. Trump was clearly not part of the club, and I feel like that worked in the people's best interest. You're shaking your fist at the snake-oil salesman, and I'm saying you're missing the snakes that came out to stop him.

Who made the poll? Let me guess, it was probably Fox News, Newsmax or some other right wing media outlet. Polls can be skewered and faked by the people that make them to have whatever outcome they want. Liberals fake results and make biased polls to make themselves look good and so do conservatives. Polls mean absolutely nothing. I don't even pay attention to them, because they are completely inaccurate. I live in a rural, blue collar county in Ohio where about 78% of voters cast their ballots for Trump in the last election. I know a ton of them. I remember asking several of them when Trump was campaigning, how he was gonna get Mexico to pay for the wall? I heard answers from them ranging from 1. He's a great businessman, he's just gonna talk them into building it and flipping the bill. 2. He'll place sanctions on Mexico until they write us a check. 3. One idiot even told me Trump would probably threaten military action if they didn't pay for the wall, so don't tell that people didn't take him seriously, because they most certainly did. They basically took his word as gospel. Granted, most of the people I know who voted for him had no more than a high school education and were gullible as hell, but they were his most fervent supporters and he knew it. He needed their votes, so he told them what they wanted to hear. When he wouldn't follow through on his promises, they would vigorously defend him by blaming the democrats, because they just parroted that answer from him. 

No, not exactly. Trump said Mexico would pay for the wall and enjoy it. That's a little different than enjoying paying for the wall. Semantics matter in this case. Yes, I know many, many, many of his followers took him literally, because his supporters around here told me so. I don't need a poll to tell me that. I've witnessed it. Do I think Trump believed Mexico was gonna pay for the wall? Absolutely not! He knew they wouldn't, but he also knew he could get his followers to believe they would and that would help get him elected, so he flat out, lied. It worked. He built portions of the wall using our governments money and then blamed liberals when he couldn't complete a project he had no intentions of finishing. It's a classic technique used by snake oil salesmen. 

Drain the swamp? Are you kidding me? He exposed it by adding to the problem. He appointed all his rich friends to cabinet seats. He appointed a former oil lobbyist as Secretary of the Interior, for God's sake! So many of his appointees were either under investigation or quit midway through their jobs that it was like a version of musical chairs when it came to his cabinet. Gimme a break! Trump didn't drain the swamp, he expanded it and added toxic waste to it. 

We'll never know who was gonna blink first between Trump and China. 

Yes, he did improve the immigration problem. I'll definitely give you that one. I approved of what he did on that issue. See, I'm not bashing Trump on this one. I'm giving him credit.

I have a real issue with anyone taking something away that some people depend on, promising to replace it and not even making an effort to do what they promised. That is what Trump did with Obamacare. If he would've just been honest and said he was gonna ditch Obamacare and left it at that, I wouldn't have been half as mad, because that is what I would have expected from him. Instead, he promised that he would replace it with "something bigger and better," even though he had no intentions of it. That is what made me so mad. It was just another outright lie. If he had no intentions of replacing it, just say so. Don't promise something you have no intentions of doing. 

Because he was using our money to build the wall. That's why there was opposition. I never believed Trump was gonna get Mexico to pay for it, but had he gotten the money from them to do it, I'd say go for it. I was against using our tax money to do it though. We have more pressing needs to use taxpayer dollars on. 

Obama is a treasonous piece of trash for freeing multiple terrorists in exchange for a deserter. Don't get me started on him. He should be in federal prison. 

Because until the day he left the white house, he was still telling people his wonderful healthcare plan was on the way, even though he had nothing. He lied until the bitter end. 

It's his job to try and fix issues like healthcare. That's why people elected him. His voters bought into his promises that his fictional system would help fix things. Don't be "that guy" who makes excuses for his dishonesty. You're better than that. 

If certain things were never gonna be Trump's focus during his presidency, he shouldn't have made campaign promises about those very things. 

I've never given the media a pass on anything. They most certainly fan the flames of division in this country in order to attract viewers and readers. That is a fact and they should be held accountable in one way or another. I'm just tired of Trump supporters giving him a pass on every lie he tells. It's always some type of excuse for his dishonesty. People need to stop being so gullible and come back to reality.

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