I don't get how homosexuality becoming more socially accepted is going to make more people want to experiment with homosexuality.  I have had more than one occasion where I have been propositioned to do things sexually with another guy.  Never once did I consider it as I know it ain't for me.  What other people do in their lives doesn't really concern me.  I hate mayonnaise.  If all of a sudden EVERYONE in America was led to believe mayonnaise was the greatest thing in the world, my mayonnaise intake would increase 0%. 

 

 

It has no effect on me either, since I'm strong willed and know what I like, always have been. 

 

That said, not everyone is....especially in todays society - very impressionable....as the example I gave before, I see young women hooking up all the time now in their drunken state at the clubs and what not... I believe that this wouldn't be happening (with such numbers) if the "power of suggestion" didn't already plant the seeds in their minds. I don't believe all those women are truly homosexual, I just think its more along the lines as what I said in my hypothesis - that they want sex and since its still seen as taboo its more exciting to them than just hooking up with a dude, so they go with it....

 

Also, I've heard about high school kids (both male and female) nowadays that have trouble "fitting in", or have trouble finding someone of the opposite sex to like them, so despite being attracted to the opposite sex, they fauxly identify as gay, as an identity crisis, or a solution to their not having the fortitude to stay with it until they find that someone of the opposite sex. How is that "being born gay"???? Being born gay to me is knowing right from the get go that you like the same sex. 

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Girls getting drunk and making out in clubs in most cases are not gay.  That power of suggestion you mention is in many cases coming from guys who either egg it on or whose attention these girls want to get.  Two girls making out is not two girls having sex.  Two girls having sex is gay or at the very least bisexual behavior.  There is a horrible double standard applied to gay women vs. gay men and two women making out in a bar has become socially accepted. There is a hypocritical subset of people who are anti-gay, but get incredibly turned on by two women getting together (spoiler alert - 90% of the woman on woman stuff in adult films isn't done by actual lesbians.  They are really only doing it for the money.  Also..  that stripper really isn't interested in your looks or personality.)   I have heard of zero cases of a straight person identifying as gay just because they want to fit in.  Despite social advances, you may want to ask yourself how that would enhance someone's identity as "fitting in."  To answer your question of what being born that way means, ask yourself when you realized you were straight?  The truth is young kids should not have much of a sense of sexual identity in the early years of their life.  Maybe some self examination to establish things that feel good.  Some people get crushes in grade school, but that's about it until their bodies become a little more developed.  The truth is many gay people do not realize right away that they are gay and when they do, coming out is something that is not easy for most as there is an element of anxiety about their self-realization.   26% of kids who come out to their parents are kicked out of their homes.  That means 1 in 4 parents who swear to love and provide for their kids only do so if their kid is straight.  That is why a large percentage of young homeless people are gay.  Back to your point, sometimes people experiment.  I did.  It lasted about a nanosecond before I said, "I have no interest in this."  For some people it might take longer.  If it isn't your life, what difference does it make?

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Only a chump boos the home team!

Girls getting drunk and making out in clubs in most cases are not gay. 

 

I said that in previous posts in this thread. 


 

That power of suggestion you mention is in many cases coming from guys who either egg it on or whose attention these girls want to get.  Two girls making out is not two girls having sex. 

 

The power of suggestion is also coming from the constant rhetoric from everything from news/ pop culture/ and even education indoctrination that its  practically encouraging homosexual behavior. LOL, and if you don't believe that the 2 girls making out, aren't going home and finishing the deed (or finishing it right there at the club), then you're pretty naive. 


 

There is a horrible double standard applied to gay women vs. gay men and two women making out in a bar has become socially accepted. There is a hypocritical subset of people who are anti-gay, but get incredibly turned on by two women getting together (spoiler alert - 90% of the woman on woman stuff in adult films isn't done by actual lesbians.  They are really only doing it for the money. 

 

Theres truth in this. I'm guilty of it. I think if you are a male and you are attracted to women, then its a pretty safe bet that if you saw 2 attractive females getting it on, you are going to be turned on. I don't think that thats being hypocritical (but maybe it is) I happen to think that its merely biology working overdrive, lol. You're seeing double (or in some cases more) of the gender that you prefer. 


 

 

And while I agree that most women that are in adult films aren't "true" lesbians, they are rather "bisexual"....I see it as an issue for children under 18 to be able to see/ access this stuff (as its so readily/ easily available online) They are impressionable and tend to mimic what they see in many aspects of life. An adult like you or I has the emotional and chronological intelligence to understand/ differentiate. 


 

 

I have heard of zero cases of a straight person identifying as gay just because they want to fit in.  Despite social advances, you may want to ask yourself how that would enhance someone's identity as "fitting in." 

 

Huh?? I heard/ read about many cases of it in the high school setting. You yourself were JUST saying that the environment is much more accepting than it used to be, and also there are groups of the "outcasts" of various people in school that tend to bond together.  In situations where its not "fitting in" with whatever "in crowd" there may be - its still "fitting in" with the sect of people they identify with, which before they may have been alone. 


 

To answer your question of what being born that way means, ask yourself when you realized you were straight?  The truth is young kids should not have much of a sense of sexual identity in the early years of their life.  Maybe some self examination to establish things that feel good.  Some people get crushes in grade school, but that's about it until their bodies become a little more developed.  The truth is many gay people do not realize right away that they are gay and when they do, coming out is something that is not easy for most as there is an element of anxiety about their self-realization.   26% of kids who come out to their parents are kicked out of their homes.  That means 1 in 4 parents who swear to love and provide for their kids only do so if their kid is straight.  That is why a large percentage of young homeless people are gay.  Back to your point, sometimes people experiment.  I did.  It lasted about a nanosecond before I said, "I have no interest in this."  For some people it might take longer.  If it isn't your life, what difference does it make?

 

Me personally? I knew by the time I was like 6 that I liked girls thats when I remember having my first kiss with a girl from around the block...As you said, physically I couldn't really act on this totally until I was older, if you know what I mean, but nonetheless, I knew very early on.... 

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I don't think it's naïve to believe many girls who make out with each other don't go home to finish the deed.  I have seen more than one occasion where the girl making out with another girl in the bar goes home with a dude.  Which lends support to my theory a lot of girls do it for the attention.  That is easier to believe than the societal acceptance of gay people is causing a rash of lesbianism.  Gay guys can't even feel safe holding hands and walking down the street in this city so I doubt highly that all the dudes in the club are going to start making out with each other.  Though I know you fear the heterosexual impulses may become boring after these past few thousand years and that time may be coming.   I have yet to hear of any case of someone assuming the identity of a gay person to fit in.  Not hating someone for what they are is different than assigning cool kid status to someone just because they are gay in high school.  Gay kids are just accepted more now than they were in the past (which has not caused a rapid decline in suicides of gay teens who still don't feel like they fit in).  It doesn't mean they are not still bullied.  Just that they are not as alone.  The example you provide of kids assuming a gay identity, again is not rooted in any fact. You say you have heard of this.  Where?  Nowhere.  It is a hypothetical which really requires one to go out on a limb to swallow.  You sure you won't consider that cognitive dissonance might be at play?  Because you keep straying farther and farther from reality.

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Only a chump boos the home team!

I don't think it's naïve to believe many girls who make out with each other don't go home to finish the deed.  I have seen more than one occasion where the girl making out with another girl in the bar goes home with a dude. 

 

LOL, even if those particular ones did wind up going home with a dude (if another woman didn't also join the dude/ girl later that evening)....you honestly don't think at some point in time they also aren't having sex with one or more of their girl friends?? If they are hooking up and getting turned on by other women out at the bar in public, they are likely finishing the deed with another woman at some point. Its not "hook up and thats it"....lol


 

 

Which lends support to my theory a lot of girls do it for the attention.  That is easier to believe than the societal acceptance of gay people is causing a rash of lesbianism.  Gay guys can't even feel safe holding hands and walking down the street in this city so I doubt highly that all the dudes in the club are going to start making out with each other.  Though I know you fear the heterosexual impulses may become boring after these past few thousand years and that time may be coming.   I have yet to hear of any case of someone assuming the identity of a gay person to fit in.  Not hating someone for what they are is different than assigning cool kid status to someone just because they are gay in high school. 

 

Go back and re-read what I said. I didn't necessarily say they turned to a gay identity and became the cool kid. I said to "fit in" and who they would likely be fitting in with is similar kids who also weren't fitting in as well. Theres always some "clique" in high schools, whether it be the cool people, jocks, musicians :thumbsup: , dorks, outcasts, preppies, or what not. 


 

Gay kids are just accepted more now than they were in the past (which has not caused a rapid decline in suicides of gay teens who still don't feel like they fit in).  It doesn't mean they are not still bullied.  Just that they are not as alone.  The example you provide of kids assuming a gay identity, again is not rooted in any fact. You say you have heard of this.  Where?  Nowhere.  It is a hypothetical which really requires one to go out on a limb to swallow.  You sure you won't consider that cognitive dissonance might be at play?  Because you keep straying farther and farther from reality.

 

Oh, well, since I don't readily have a link to the articles that I have read over the years where I am getting these accounts from/ as well as talks I have had with actual teachers regarding their experience with overseeing the whole issue....then I guess I am making it all up, right?.... If you think I am, then whatever makes you feel better...


 

"(where? Nowhere)".... and you wonder why I continue to look at liberal argumentative tacts like that negatively. That response is of a pompous [BAD WORD REMOVED], or the equivalent of someone sticking his fingers in his ears so they can't hear you.

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So, hypothetically one kid in some school feels like he is an outcast and is socially awkward so he fakes being gay so that he can gain acceptance within a group so he doesn't have to be alone.  What does that say other than a kid is so desperate to fit in with anyone that he lies to gain acceptance to a group?  Unless it was you..  I have never heard of it or read any article about such a thing.  I cannot conceive of why an article like that would even be written as it is not newsworthy even from a societal aspect.  That you keep harping on these extreme and improbable/impossible scenarios is very telling.   I am sorry that you are offended by my disbelief that this is indeed happening.  I too read quite a bit and know several teachers having been raised by one and have never heard of such a thing happening.  Again..  I implore you..  find an actual gay person and have a real discussion with them about all of these theories you have. 

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Only a chump boos the home team!

Why is it people for gay rights only have an "agenda" but those against it are doing it for their "beliefs".



Here is what I believe...the people that believe that gay marriage is wrong is trying to control other people with their beliefs! If gay marriage was legal everywhere tomorrow, no straight, God fearing people would be forced to marry someone of the same sex! No straight peoples marriages will change if gay people can get married too.



What one person, or group of people believe should not stop others from being able to do what they want!

very well said.

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I don't think it's naïve to believe many girls who make out with each other don't go home to finish the deed. I have seen more than one occasion where the girl making out with another girl in the bar goes home with a dude. Which lends support to my theory a lot of girls do it for the attention. That is easier to believe than the societal acceptance of gay people is causing a rash of lesbianism. Gay guys can't even feel safe holding hands and walking down the street in this city so I doubt highly that all the dudes in the club are going to start making out with each other. Though I know you fear the heterosexual impulses may become boring after these past few thousand years and that time may be coming. I have yet to hear of any case of someone assuming the identity of a gay person to fit in. Not hating someone for what they are is different than assigning cool kid status to someone just because they are gay in high school. Gay kids are just accepted more now than they were in the past (which has not caused a rapid decline in suicides of gay teens who still don't feel like they fit in). It doesn't mean they are not still bullied. Just that they are not as alone. The example you provide of kids assuming a gay identity, again is not rooted in any fact. You say you have heard of this. Where? Nowhere. It is a hypothetical which really requires one to go out on a limb to swallow. You sure you won't consider that cognitive dissonance might be at play? Because you keep straying farther and farther from reality.

I agree with about everything you've said and I'd also like to add that the world is not as black and white as some would believe.

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So, hypothetically one kid in some school feels like he is an outcast and is socially awkward so he fakes being gay so that he can gain acceptance within a group so he doesn't have to be alone.  What does that say other than a kid is so desperate to fit in with anyone that he lies to gain acceptance to a group?  Unless it was you..  I have never heard of it or read any article about such a thing.  I cannot conceive of why an article like that would even be written as it is not newsworthy even from a societal aspect.  That you keep harping on these extreme and improbable/impossible scenarios is very telling.   I am sorry that you are offended by my disbelief that this is indeed happening.  I too read quite a bit and know several teachers having been raised by one and have never heard of such a thing happening.  Again..  I implore you..  find an actual gay person and have a real discussion with them about all of these theories you have. 

 

Its not "kid" as if this was singular. It was part of a larger articles that dealt with a large number of schools and a large number of kids/ instances. It also wasn't as if it was merely an article that focused acutely on that singular aspect, it was a broader article that featured that account as contribution. Nice predictable canned liberal type response though with the "unless it was you...." No, it was not me.....but you had another one of those type responses earlier in this thread so its obvious you just can't help yourself.  As for talking to an actual gay person about these theories I have....I wouldn't mind that but I can just imagine how that might end up...It probably wouldn't be a rational exchange of discussion. The one's I have seen out and about tend to be angry, petty, and trite as well as quite intolerant of others opinions. But it would be an interesting discussion if I could find one who's not an extreme lefty and could debate intelligently. 

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If there was a line between what Kotite's and TMD's debate, that's where I'd be. 

 

There are attention-seekers, card-pullers, and self-entitled people in every party/movement/religion/etc, etc. I don't think these people are a fair representation of a groups belief's however, but it does happen. 

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I'm surprised this hasen't been closed yet.

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I'm surprised this hasen't been closed yet.

Politics are okay now and as long as religion isn't brought into the subjects other than just saying you have beliefs, I don't see why it should be closed.

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What in the Wide Wide World of Sports is agoin' on here???

I think it's been pretty clean all things considered.

---

I'm seeing myself kinda get too much into the argument/ re: getting sucked up into arguing against individual posters to where I am losing my original focus. 

 

I have no issue with homosexuals and equality. I do not believe they should be discriminated against. A person should never lose their job because they're gay, and that should not be any determining factor in one person getting employment either way. 

 

They deserve any right that I would have as a straight person. 

 

That said, I do have my beliefs. I am pro traditional marriage. I doubt this part will ever change. Its how I was raised. Its what I believe in. One CAN hold this belief and should not be branded a hater/ homophobe.  

 

I think I should be allowed that right to believe in what I choose to believe in and be entitled the same respect for my opinions/ beliefs that liberals are asking for on their side of this issue. If you are so damn hung up on tolerance well, guess what - its not a one way street, its a two way street. I rarely see tolerance the other way in recent years. Again, just my perspective. 

 

At the present time I have opinions as to where I think the future (as in generations, not next week or next year...) could be headed and stated those opinions. That doesn't mean that I think current homosexuals are any of those things despite a few posters begging to morph the 2 (and it ALSO doesn't mean that straight people can't also fall prey into those things), I just know that human nature doesn't sit still, it progresses. My opinions on this part are based on evolutionary principles and humans wanting more and more. Could my opinion change over time as more information becomes gained? Sure. Thats how it always should be. I think you can be a person of principle while also maintaining an open mind. 

 

I'm not going to discuss this in this thread any further. 

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I'm seeing myself kinda get too much into the argument/ re: getting sucked up into arguing against individual posters to where I am losing my original focus. 

 

I have no issue with homosexuals and equality. I do not believe they should be discriminated against. A person should never lose their job because they're gay, and that should not be any determining factor in one person getting employment either way. 

 

They deserve any right that I would have as a straight person. 

 

That said, I do have my beliefs. I am pro traditional marriage. I doubt this part will ever change. Its how I was raised. Its what I believe in. One CAN hold this belief and should not be branded a hater/ homophobe.  

 

I think I should be allowed that right to believe in what I choose to believe in and be entitled the same respect for my opinions/ beliefs that liberals are asking for on their side of this issue. If you are so damn hung up on tolerance well, guess what - its not a one way street, its a two way street. I rarely see tolerance the other way in recent years. Again, just my perspective. 

 

At the present time I have opinions as to where I think the future (as in generations, not next week or next year...) could be headed and stated those opinions. That doesn't mean that I think current homosexuals are any of those things (and it ALSO doesn't mean that straight people can't also fall prey into those things), despite a few posters begging to morph the 2, I just know that human nature doesn't sit still, it progresses. My opinions on this part are based on evolutionary principles and humans wanting more and more. Could my opinion change over time as more information becomes gained? Sure. Thats how it always should be. I think you can be a person of principle while also maintaining an open mind. 

 

I'm not going to discuss this in this thread any further.

If it's two separate issues, then just deal with the issue at hand and not what you think it might lead to. If it's evolutionary as you call it, it's going to happen whether gays are allowed to marry or not.


I've got news for you...pedophiles, polygamists, incest and those seeking a little furry love have been around since man first walked the earth. It's not new and uncharted territory.





Everything boils down to this...You are trying to stop someone else from doing something because of your ideals. What would you do if someone wouldn't allow you to do something because they didn't FEEL it was right?

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What in the Wide Wide World of Sports is agoin' on here???

I am less concerned with how people feel about homosexuality personally than I am about how the laws are written. I respect someone's right to not think it's okay or right. So long as they acknowledge their beliefs don't override someone else's right to exist how they are. I assure you TMD that there are plenty of extremely conservative gay people right here in Jax. They are not all extreme stereotypes and in your face. The only thing I ask anyone who is firmly against gay people is to ask themselves honestly why. Are the reasons things others are leading you to believe or are they factual? Because there are people spending millions spreading falsehoods about homosexuality for their own purposes. I would encourage you to walk a mile in these people's shoes before you cast judgment. If you don't know any gay people and want to listen to their stories, Jacksonville has an annual community run production written by Jacksonvillians and performed by Jacksonvillians telling their own coming out stories which you can attend. If you don't know how you feel on the subject and want to understand more, there is no excuse. The only thing I didn't get in your post TMD is why a slight dig is labeled a canned liberal response. Oh well.. baby steps.

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Only a chump boos the home team!

ok last one...

 

If it's two separate issues, then just deal with the issue at hand and not what you think it might lead to. If it's evolutionary as you call it, it's going to happen whether gays are allowed to marry or not.


I've got news for you...pedophiles, polygamists, incest and those seeking a little furry love have been around since man first walked the earth. It's not new and uncharted territory.





Everything boils down to this...You are trying to stop someone else from doing something because of your ideals. What would you do if someone wouldn't allow you to do something because they didn't FEEL it was right?

 

I don't recall trying to stop anyone from doing anything. Just giving my opinion on the issue is only that, my opinion. 

 

But to answer your question, obviously I wouldn't want someone not allowing me to do what I felt was the right thing to do. 

 

I am less concerned with how people feel about homosexuality personally than I am about how the laws are written. I respect someone's right to not think it's okay or right. So long as they acknowledge their beliefs don't override someone else's right to exist how they are. I assure you TMD that there are plenty of extremely conservative gay people right here in Jax. They are not all extreme stereotypes and in your face. The only thing I ask anyone who is firmly against gay people is to ask themselves honestly why. Are the reasons things others are leading you to believe or are they factual? Because there are people spending millions spreading falsehoods about homosexuality for their own purposes. I would encourage you to walk a mile in these people's shoes before you cast judgment. If you don't know any gay people and want to listen to their stories, Jacksonville has an annual community run production written by Jacksonvillians and performed by Jacksonvillians telling their own coming out stories which you can attend. If you don't know how you feel on the subject and want to understand more, there is no excuse. The only thing I didn't get in your post TMD is why a slight dig is labeled a canned liberal response. Oh well.. baby steps.

 

The slight dig was labeled a canned liberal response because in these type of arguments I constantly see liberals coming back trying to put it on the person - i.e. "if you're against homosexuality, you must be secretly/ subconsciously gay" and responses of that ilk. Thus your response was similar in its typicality. I don't like Brussel Sprouts either....that doesn't mean I secretly/ subconsciously like them. 

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Yeah.. I still don't see how making a quick smart(donkey) comment is exclusive to liberals or conservatives. I think it's more universally adaptable than that. You do it. p.s. - nobody really believed you when you said "last comment."

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Only a chump boos the home team!

Yeah.. I still don't see how making a quick smart(donkey) comment is exclusive to liberals or conservatives. I think it's more universally adaptable than that. You do it. p.s. - nobody really believed you when you said "last comment."

 

<_< 

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ok last one...

 


 

I don't recall trying to stop anyone from doing anything. Just giving my opinion on the issue is only that, my opinion. 

 

But to answer your question, obviously I wouldn't want someone not allowing me to do what I felt was the right thing to do. 

So then you're okay with gays getting married as long as we all know you don't support it or believe in it? Is that what you're trying to say?

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What in the Wide Wide World of Sports is agoin' on here???