I talked so much trash about Allen, and I live in Western NY. I've basically dug my own grave around here lol I can't back down at this point.

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This is kind of the point here. 

He wasn't trash. 

He was in need of development and acclimation to the league. His raw skill throwing the football coming out placed him in the "not trash" category from the get. But it was raw. 

The folks eager to jump on players that need time to acclimate and call them trash in year one are the reason these threads get bumped. It's premature hyperbole.

I disagree. His rookie year (and even his final college season) I didn't see a good QB at all.
Canon arm, inaccurate, couldn't read a defense, one read and run the ball.

Jamarcus Russel was another QB with a canon arm, he was trash and never worked to get better. Only got fatter.
He was trash, and stayed that way.
Allen was trash and worked to get better. Premature hyperbole? Nah man, we see top 10 QBs come in and look the part right away all the time, even if they have some rookie QB issues to work through.
I guess if you have an issue with the analogy of "trash" that's fine. He wasn't good. He was down right bad.
Kinda like Bortles, some would say he was trash. He worked at it... probably became slight better than trash but never really good.

I don't know why it has to be a problem for people to have an opinion about the play of a player and then that player improve and all of a sudden the 3 year old opinion is somehow not valid.
If I was saying he's still trash I mean, that would be disingenuous sure.
And I still think digging up old threads to bump some I told you so nonsense is petty. I wouldn't dig it up had he not improved to be like "Where all the Allen lovers now?!" lol It's silly.

I think if you're drafting a QB in the top 10 he should be good before year 3 really. And really, we're 3 games into his year 3 so let's not crown him anything yet.
But as I said... he worked and got better. That's good for him and for the Bills.
People pretending like they knew all along he was gonna be some great QB is laughable. Because after his rookie year, it didn't look good at all. (52% comp, 10/12 TD/INT) Was also sub 60% his 2nd year, though he did improve his TD to INT ratio. There were plenty of folks loving them some Sam Darnold... and he hasn't gotten better at all.
But Kyler Murray looked good as a rookie. Hell, even Minshew as a 6th rounder looked good at times, though jury is still out whether he'll truly be a long term fixture. Watson another QB looked better early.

This is what happens when you let yourself get stuck analyzing the wrong stats or traits to determine a player's potential or lack thereof. 

Gotta try to see the forest through the trees. 

He's legit good, and it took a minute to get to league speed for him. Not an uncommon story historically.

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I disagree. His rookie year (and even his final college season) I didn't see a good QB at all.
Canon arm, inaccurate, couldn't read a defense, one read and run the ball.

Jamarcus Russel was another QB with a canon arm, he was trash and never worked to get better. Only got fatter.
He was trash, and stayed that way.
Allen was trash and worked to get better. Premature hyperbole? Nah man, we see top 10 QBs come in and look the part right away all the time, even if they have some rookie QB issues to work through.
I guess if you have an issue with the analogy of "trash" that's fine. He wasn't good. He was down right bad.
Kinda like Bortles, some would say he was trash. He worked at it... probably became slight better than trash but never really good.

I don't know why it has to be a problem for people to have an opinion about the play of a player and then that player improve and all of a sudden the 3 year old opinion is somehow not valid.
If I was saying he's still trash I mean, that would be disingenuous sure.
And I still think digging up old threads to bump some I told you so nonsense is petty. I wouldn't dig it up had he not improved to be like "Where all the Allen lovers now?!" lol It's silly.

I think if you're drafting a QB in the top 10 he should be good before year 3 really. And really, we're 3 games into his year 3 so let's not crown him anything yet.
But as I said... he worked and got better. That's good for him and for the Bills.
People pretending like they knew all along he was gonna be some great QB is laughable. Because after his rookie year, it didn't look good at all. (52% comp, 10/12 TD/INT) Was also sub 60% his 2nd year, though he did improve his TD to INT ratio. There were plenty of folks loving them some Sam Darnold... and he hasn't gotten better at all.
But Kyler Murray looked good as a rookie. Hell, even Minshew as a 6th rounder looked good at times, though jury is still out whether he'll truly be a long term fixture. Watson another QB looked better early.

This is what happens when you let yourself get stuck analyzing the wrong stats or traits to determine a player's potential or lack thereof. 

Gotta try to see the forest through the trees. 

He's legit good, and it took a minute to get to league speed for him. Not an uncommon story historically.

I wasn't determining a player's potential. I was determining the player as he was. His rookie year was NOT good.
He even admitted as much in his interview last night. Year one: one read and run kind of guy.
He went to work on his craft and is very good in year 3. Good for him. Had he not worked on his craft he'd still be a sub 60% comp, one read QB.
How are looking at comp % and TD:INT ratio the wrong stats? Those are the ones that matter the most for QBs imo.

When we talk about QBs in the draft we're often talking about the QB that is. Not the QB that they could be because really so much goes into what a QB could become in the NFL. Given the right coaching and training a lot of QBs COULD get better and develop. Many do not, especially here. When we talk about Lawrence and Fields and Wilson and Trask... we're ranking them based on what we've currently seen.

The QB coming out of Wyoming is not the QB we see today. Not sure why everyone feels the need to dig up old threads to give themselves pats on the back. It's so funny that so many people seek such validation on a message board.
Find me saying "the kid will never be good" and I'll admit you "got me".
I didn't see him as a top 10 QB. And I didn't think he was good as a rookie. These "where are all the haters now" threads are laughable. It isn't being a hater being critical of a QBs shortcomings. Haters are people that "hate" on the QB or player even after they're good. I'm giving the kid his dues now that he's earned them. Far different.

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This is what happens when you let yourself get stuck analyzing the wrong stats or traits to determine a player's potential or lack thereof. 

Gotta try to see the forest through the trees. 

He's legit good, and it took a minute to get to league speed for him. Not an uncommon story historically.

I wasn't determining a player's potential. I was determining the player as he was. His rookie year was NOT good.
He even admitted as much in his interview last night. Year one: one read and run kind of guy.
He went to work on his craft and is very good in year 3. Good for him. Had he not worked on his craft he'd still be a sub 60% comp, one read QB.
How are looking at comp % and TD:INT ratio the wrong stats? Those are the ones that matter the most for QBs imo.

When we talk about QBs in the draft we're often talking about the QB that is. Not the QB that they could be because really so much goes into what a QB could become in the NFL. Given the right coaching and training a lot of QBs COULD get better and develop. Many do not, especially here. When we talk about Lawrence and Fields and Wilson and Trask... we're ranking them based on what we've currently seen.

The QB coming out of Wyoming is not the QB we see today. Not sure why everyone feels the need to dig up old threads to give themselves pats on the back. It's so funny that so many people seek such validation on a message board.
Find me saying "the kid will never be good" and I'll admit you "got me".
I didn't see him as a top 10 QB. And I didn't think he was good as a rookie. These "where are all the haters now" threads are laughable. It isn't being a hater being critical of a QBs shortcomings. Haters are people that "hate" on the QB or player even after they're good. I'm giving the kid his dues now that he's earned them. Far different.

The talk about evaluating the player's potential instead of his rookie year performance shouldn't really need to be explained. 

You can look at the majority of NFL QB's rookie years and say they sucked. 

As far as rehashing old threads, why bother posting 40 times in various predraft threads about these guys if we're just going to then ignore their actual careers and our various prognostications???? 

It's part of the deal on this and other boards. 

I'm wrong on at least half of the players I prop up pre draft. Folks can drag me for it all they want. 
I just don't tend to run about bad mouthing the players I don't prefer to draft very often. 
(Fournette is the last time I did so - though I expressed doubt in Deshaun Watson as well) 
LOTS of folks had a field day dragging Allen through the mud pre-draft,  and that's why myself and others enjoy furthering the discussion.

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I wasn't determining a player's potential. I was determining the player as he was. His rookie year was NOT good.
He even admitted as much in his interview last night. Year one: one read and run kind of guy.
He went to work on his craft and is very good in year 3. Good for him. Had he not worked on his craft he'd still be a sub 60% comp, one read QB.
How are looking at comp % and TD:INT ratio the wrong stats? Those are the ones that matter the most for QBs imo.

When we talk about QBs in the draft we're often talking about the QB that is. Not the QB that they could be because really so much goes into what a QB could become in the NFL. Given the right coaching and training a lot of QBs COULD get better and develop. Many do not, especially here. When we talk about Lawrence and Fields and Wilson and Trask... we're ranking them based on what we've currently seen.

The QB coming out of Wyoming is not the QB we see today. Not sure why everyone feels the need to dig up old threads to give themselves pats on the back. It's so funny that so many people seek such validation on a message board.
Find me saying "the kid will never be good" and I'll admit you "got me".
I didn't see him as a top 10 QB. And I didn't think he was good as a rookie. These "where are all the haters now" threads are laughable. It isn't being a hater being critical of a QBs shortcomings. Haters are people that "hate" on the QB or player even after they're good. I'm giving the kid his dues now that he's earned them. Far different.

The talk about evaluating the player's potential instead of his rookie year performance shouldn't really need to be explained. 

You can look at the majority of NFL QB's rookie years and say they sucked. 

As far as rehashing old threads, why bother posting 40 times in various predraft threads about these guys if we're just going to then ignore their actual careers and our various prognostications???? 

It's part of the deal on this and other boards. 

I'm wrong on at least half of the players I prop up pre draft. Folks can drag me for it all they want. 
I just don't tend to run about bad mouthing the players I don't prefer to draft very often. 
(Fournette is the last time I did so - though I expressed doubt in Deshaun Watson as well) 
LOTS of folks had a field day dragging Allen through the mud pre-draft,  and that's why myself and others enjoy furthering the discussion.

Need to be explained? No one was talking about Allen pre draft like he could "someday be great" people were hyping him up because of his size and arm strength. Which we've seen before fail guys who don't hone their craft. Sorry not buying the whole notion that we're always talking about potential vs how good they are coming into the league. At least I'm certainly not. If you're drafting a guy top 10, he should be ready to come in and be good right away. Not on a good team seeing as they are picking top 10, so likely that won't be wins and losses really but QB performance. His QB performance wasn't good right away. It just wasn't. He was a low comp % high turnover running QB.

Why bother posting in threads if not to rehash it (when convenient) years down the road? I dunno... to kill time? For general discussion purposes as it pertains to the team and the upcoming draft at the time... I mean, are we building future GM resumes based of the poo we flung at the message board wall back in 2018? Cuz man... if I had known we were being quizzed on who would be right 3 years later I might have studied more "film"   

And I can't speak for everyone "draggin Allen through the mud" but I think most of the naysayers would point to low comp %, low YPA, and level of competition as big reasons for doubt. Calling him "trash" came after the Ramsey article which based on his rookie year, seemed legit.

It's like a guy can't play like garbage and then get better. It's like "he was always great, you just didn't give him time". Nah, he wasn't very good and got better. Because of his physical ability, i.e. arm strength and mobility, when he worked on being a better QB he became a better QB. But the rookie Allen wasn't good, the kid coming from Wyoming where he didn't have very good stats against meh competition, wasn't good. Whatever noun or adjective makes you feel better about it, use it my dude... trash, not good, lackluster, mediocre.
Hindsight is a beautiful thing but if Josh Allen was our QB would he be the QB we saw Monday night? No one knows though likely not. He didn't just get better he worked with people in the off season, kinda like how Bortles TRIED to do. Therefore all the people that were in love with him pre draft wouldn't have been "proven right" necessarily.

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The talk about evaluating the player's potential instead of his rookie year performance shouldn't really need to be explained. 

You can look at the majority of NFL QB's rookie years and say they sucked. 

As far as rehashing old threads, why bother posting 40 times in various predraft threads about these guys if we're just going to then ignore their actual careers and our various prognostications???? 

It's part of the deal on this and other boards. 

I'm wrong on at least half of the players I prop up pre draft. Folks can drag me for it all they want. 
I just don't tend to run about bad mouthing the players I don't prefer to draft very often. 
(Fournette is the last time I did so - though I expressed doubt in Deshaun Watson as well) 
LOTS of folks had a field day dragging Allen through the mud pre-draft,  and that's why myself and others enjoy furthering the discussion.

Need to be explained? No one was talking about Allen pre draft like he could "someday be great" people were hyping him up because of his size and arm strength. Which we've seen before fail guys who don't hone their craft. Sorry not buying the whole notion that we're always talking about potential vs how good they are coming into the league. At least I'm certainly not. If you're drafting a guy top 10, he should be ready to come in and be good right away. Not on a good team seeing as they are picking top 10, so likely that won't be wins and losses really but QB performance. His QB performance wasn't good right away. It just wasn't. He was a low comp % high turnover running QB.

Why bother posting in threads if not to rehash it (when convenient) years down the road? I dunno... to kill time? For general discussion purposes as it pertains to the team and the upcoming draft at the time... I mean, are we building future GM resumes based of the poo we flung at the message board wall back in 2018? Cuz man... if I had known we were being quizzed on who would be right 3 years later I might have studied more "film"   

And I can't speak for everyone "draggin Allen through the mud" but I think most of the naysayers would point to low comp %, low YPA, and level of competition as big reasons for doubt. Calling him "trash" came after the Ramsey article which based on his rookie year, seemed legit.

It's like a guy can't play like garbage and then get better. It's like "he was always great, you just didn't give him time". Nah, he wasn't very good and got better. Because of his physical ability, i.e. arm strength and mobility, when he worked on being a better QB he became a better QB. But the rookie Allen wasn't good, the kid coming from Wyoming where he didn't have very good stats against meh competition, wasn't good. Whatever noun or adjective makes you feel better about it, use it my dude... trash, not good, lackluster, mediocre.
Hindsight is a beautiful thing but if Josh Allen was our QB would he be the QB we saw Monday night? No one knows though likely not. He didn't just get better he worked with people in the off season, kinda like how Bortles TRIED to do. Therefore all the people that were in love with him pre draft wouldn't have been "proven right" necessarily.

The bolded is EXACTLY what I and others were saying about him.  If he caught up the mental aspects even remotely to match his "arm talent" ( I hate that term) then he could be great. 
It was a pretty common refrain. Sorry you missed it. 

Seeing that actually happen after claiming it just might happen is worth commenting for me.
I went back one page to see this thread. Didn't require a search. No need to take it personally. 
I'll refrain from quoting your older posts next time I guess. *shrug*

Also you're still caught up in analyzing periods of development instead of analyzing potential which is weird to me. 
Determining a player's ability to improve and likelihood to improve is a pretty important element of scouting college players, no? 

No one is mad at you for saying he sucked statistically in "X" way at "X" period of time. He had clear issues. 

I merely think his development is a very good example of why folks shouldn't be so quick to write off prospects that have shown elite traits in some areas while lacking sorely in others.

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Seems like a bad QB riding the coattails of a good defense playing an easy schedule. I’m not impressed.

He's turned a corner, you can see it even against good defenses, but OK.

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Seems like a bad QB riding the coattails of a good defense playing an easy schedule. I’m not impressed.

He's turned a corner, you can see it even against good defenses, but OK.

You quoted a post from late 2019 when Allen was still not playing exceptionally well and was in fact riding the coat tails of a great D.

This year he indeed turned a corner. He's on his way to being a perennial top QB of the league, if he can keep it up.

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He's turned a corner, you can see it even against good defenses, but OK.

You quoted a post from late 2019 when Allen was still not playing exceptionally well and was in fact riding the coat tails of a great D.

This year he indeed turned a corner. He's on his way to being a perennial top QB of the league, if he can keep it up.

I'm forecasting an abrupt Wentzian decline next season. Maybe his mechanics will fall apart after watching too many Bortles highlights on YouTube.

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"I am only an average man, but by George, I work harder at it than the average man." - Teddy Roosevelt

"He isnt and has never been good at any level" It was magic lol. Classic JackCity

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I love when people have to point out people's mistakes when half of their takes are just as [BLEEP].

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