I don't know if national sovereignty really exists anymore with the intertwined nature of our economies. I mean, it exists in theory, but the idea that a nation is truly independent of other nations and their decisions is to simplify an extremely complicated world.


I mean the Brexit sounds like it is achieving some idealistic form of independence from bureaucracy, but they will have to deal with that same bureaucracy, except from a position of "outsider."

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“It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners.”
― Albert Camus

Should be interesting to see how it affects the markets. I think we are supposed to find out around 5 EST.

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“It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners.”
― Albert Camus

Plus democracy isn't really working anywhere. Look at you guys where you can only really vote for 2 parties and big lobby groups tell them what their policies are. NRA for example just buys influence, how is that democracy?

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I don't know if national sovereignty really exists anymore with the intertwined nature of our economies. I mean, it exists in theory, but the idea that a nation is truly independent of other nations and their decisions is to simplify an extremely complicated world.


I mean the Brexit sounds like it is achieving some idealistic form of independence from bureaucracy, but they will have to deal with that same bureaucracy, except from a position of "outsider."

And in this case a position of strength. Under the current system, the EU can put quotas and limits on the uks own resources and create an immigration crisis without the direct approval of Britain itself.


Britain is one of the dominant forces in Europe and a dumping ground for a lot of European goods. They can negotiate better deals on their own.

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Hypothetical question. If GB votes to leave the EU for national sovereignty, does the UK have to revisit its own structure and internal independence movements as well as address concerns with issues such as the West Lothian question?

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“It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners.”
― Albert Camus

Plus democracy isn't really working anywhere. Look at you guys where you can only really vote for 2 parties and big lobby groups tell them what their policies are. NRA for example just buys influence, how is that democracy?

 

The NRA is a minor player. Try Goldman Sachs or Boeing (hence the re authorization of the Ex/Im bank sneaked into a budget bill).

 

You are right, we don't have anything close to a Democratic Republic in the US today. We used to. Now government controls the entire economy either directly or through regulation. There's this example of the Justice Department imposing unvoted-on regulations on 17 of the top 100 companies:


 

http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles...02232.html

 

Apparently those companies didn't contribute enough to the Obama reelection campaign.

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"Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?"

Hypothetical question. If GB votes to leave the EU for national sovereignty, does the UK have to revisit its own structure and internal independence movements as well as address concerns with issues such as the West Lothian question?

 

They don't have to. They should.


 

I don't see this vote changing much of anything in the near future, except maybe the stock markets' reaction. Over time it will make a difference as the UK will not be subject to the additional regulations that will be imposed on the EU countries.

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"Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?"

They don't have to. They should.


 

I don't see this vote changing much of anything in the near future, except maybe the stock markets' reaction. Over time it will make a difference as the UK will not be subject to the additional regulations that will be imposed on the EU countries.

 

Except on all the goods they plan on trading with EU nations which make up 4 of the top 5 landing spots for their goods (Germany Netherlands, Switzerland and France.)  The US is the 5th and largest beating out Germany by a hair.  Export trade with European nations more than doubles any export with any other continent with Asia coming closest, 164 billion dollars behind in 2nd place.  They will still be subject to the regulations is all I am trying to say.  I feel like the argument is ideologically pleasing, but not necessarily going to reflect a positive real life change for the people of GB. 

 

Perhaps someone in GB can answer this.  Does US and British trade fall under regulations with the EU, or do they only reflect inner Union trade?  

 

(I got these numbers from mit.edu: (http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/)

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“It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners.”
― Albert Camus

I'm in two minds about the EU.


On the good side : Ireland has gained more than any other country from the EU and the early EEC. Completely revamped our backwards little farming country into quite a nice place to live. As an avid traveller the EU is great and so easy to get around. Cheap airline tickets also.


The bad: We were screwed over by Europe during the bailout and had to follow what the EU said with very little leeway to manoeuvre. No body should have more control on a country than its own government. I despise Germany's role in today's EU.

So, would you say the bad outweighs the good?


I don't know about you, but giving up sovereignty sounds like a really bad idea...

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Except on all the goods they plan on trading with EU nations which make up 4 of the top 5 landing spots for their goods (Germany Netherlands, Switzerland and France.)  The US is the 5th and largest beating out Germany by a hair.  Export trade with European nations more than doubles any export with any other continent with China coming closest, 164 billion dollars behind in 2nd place.  They will still be subject to the regulations is all I am trying to say.  I feel like the argument is ideologically pleasing, but not necessarily going to reflect a positive real life change for the people of GB. 

 

Perhaps someone in GB can answer this.  Does US and British trade fall under regulations with the EU, or do they only reflect inner Union trade?  

 

(I got these numbers from mit.edu: (http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/)

 

That's true, but that's only a fraction of the regulations the EU imposes on it's members. For example, they won't have to follow future EU environmental regulations, or banking regulations.

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"Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?"

That's true, but that's only a fraction of the regulations the EU imposes on it's members. For example, they won't have to follow future EU environmental regulations, or banking regulations.

Like the EU won't pull rank and outright tell the UK to abide by EU regulations or be excluded from the common market. Right now the UK has a say in the EU, if they leave they won't but will likely still have to abide by their regulations.

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The EU isn't unelected.

Love that pic, DF!

 

FWIW, the 3 institutions that dictate policy and control the flow of capital for the Eurozone are:  The International Monetary Fund (IMF), The European Commission (EC), and The European Central Bank (ECB).  

 

The current leaders that the citizens of the EU didn't have the oppty to vote for or against are: 

Christine Lagarde, Managing Director of the IMF, Appointed

Jean-Claude Juncker, President of the EC, Appointed

Mario Draghi, President of ECB, Appointed

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Kaishakunin for hire.

* (disclaimer) If you think I'm serious, hit yourself in the face w/ a hammer.

 

The UK will be free to negotiate its own international trade agreements that it feels serves the national interest.

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I'm betting they stay.

But as far as my opinion on whether they should leave or not?

It means nothing. I don't live there. Therefore have minimal understanding. Unlike most here who seem to have it figured out.

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Blakes Life Matters

So, would you say the bad outweighs the good?


I don't know about you, but giving up sovereignty sounds like a really bad idea...

Unfortunately staying with the EU is a matter of necessity now. We arn't in a position to leave.


Our economy is completely dependent on the EU and large companies like Google,Microsoft etc etc.


Leaving the EU would cripple us, we'll be in the EU until its eventual collapse.

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Love that pic, DF!


FWIW, the 3 institutions that dictate policy and control the flow of capital for the Eurozone are: The International Monetary Fund (IMF), The European Commission (EC), and The European Central Bank (ECB).


The current leaders that the citizens of the EU didn't have the oppty to vote for or against are:

Christine Lagarde, Managing Director of the IMF, Appointed

Jean-Claude Juncker, President of the EC, Appointed

Mario Draghi, President of ECB, Appointed

Appointed by elected officials. That's like complaining the judges on the Supreme Court aren't directly elected.

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There's a reason legislators and executives were given terms and intervals that they would have to answer to the voters.

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The way that the stock market reacted today and with the latest news, it looks like the UK is going to stay in EU.

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

Unfortunately staying with the EU is a matter of necessity now. We arn't in a position to leave.


Our economy is completely dependent on the EU and large companies like Google,Microsoft etc etc.


Leaving the EU would cripple us, we'll be in the EU until its eventual collapse.

 

I'm pretty confident the Dutch and a few others may want to follow us out the door. 

 

I actually don't believe they will leave even if they vote so. The EU needs the UK as a big net contributor. They will offer more concessions (free movement of people) and stay in.

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I'm pretty confident the Dutch and a few others may want to follow us out the door. 

I don't think we would. Most people here distrust the EU and would like to see it's influence reduced by most also understand that the country can't survive on its own. It needs to be part of the European trade block in order to have a say in things.

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