What exactly has Gus done to prove he's a "good coach"?

This.  If he was a good coach he'd have more than 5 wins in a season after 3 years.  If he gets 10-6, it's because of the players.  Bortles, AR15, etc.  If he happens to stay for 3-5 years and has double digit wins every year then I'd say yes at that point.

 

So far, Bradley has had way to many errors, lack of game planning for his opponents, and it has been down right embarrassing at times.  Trust me, I hope it changes, and I think it will.  Just not by his account.

 

I really think Caldwell has done his job.  He has brought in some incredible players.

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I never said it was untalented. I said they over achieved in what was only the second year of a new franchise. The current rebuild is as close to that comparison as possible and Gus has not shown to take a young group of talent and over achieve. It's not that difficult to understand. It's not a total knock on Gus either. He has this year to prove he can lead a talented team to a mediocre 8-8 season. All we have to do is sit back and watch if he can do it. Will see...

Not only did Coughlin's group have talent, but they also had a lot more experience than the rosters that Gus has had to work with up until this coming season.

 

No one is saying Coughlin wasn't a great coach, but it is very disingenuous to say that Bradley has had a roster to work with that is comparable in talent and experience to what the jags 96 roster had.

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Not only did Coughlin's group have talent, but they also had a lot more experience than the rosters that Gus has had to work with up until this coming season.

 

No one is saying Coughlin wasn't a great coach, but it is very disingenuous to say that Bradley has had a roster to work with that is comparable in talent and experience to what the jags 96 roster had.

 

Both the 1996 and 2015 teams were 14th in scoring offense. The difference was the defense which is Gus' supposed specialty. So let's look at defense.


On the defensive line, in 2015 Chris Clemons was a talented player with a lot of experience. So were Odrick and Miller. Alualu is not talented IMO, but he was a veteran and a starter for almost all of his career. Hardly an experience gap there. The 1996 line had a much better pass rush. Clemons did not play up to his previous level, and the 1996 team had a lot of depth at DE. How much of that difference was from raw talent, and how much was from coaching? Branch, Clemons, and Davis all declined in 2015, and only Clemons can be blamed on age.


The 1996 linebackers were two untalented players plus a rookie 1st round pick Hardy. The 2015 Jags had much better LBs, with more overall experience.


 

The 1996 DBs were three journeyman backups plus rookie 3rd round pick Beasley. The Jags had House and Colvin at CB, Evans and Cyprien at safety. The total years experience of the two units is 11 for the 1996 group, 9 for the 2015 group. No a big difference in experience. And I still can't figure out why McCray wasn't ahead of Gratz on the depth chart.


 

There was a reason Babich was fired. The talent wasn't nearly as bad as the result, 31st in scoring defense. It's even worse when you factor in the weak offenses the Jags faced last year.


 

The talent for 2016 is far better than 1996, but I still doubt that the Jags make the playoffs. If Gus goes 10-6 this year then I'll be looking out my window for the flying pigs.

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"Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?"

Both the 1996 and 2015 teams were 14th in scoring offense. The difference was the defense which is Gus' supposed specialty. So let's look at defense.


On the defensive line, in 2015 Chris Clemons was a talented player with a lot of experience. So were Odrick and Miller. Alualu is not talented IMO, but he was a veteran and a starter for almost all of his career. Hardly an experience gap there. The 1996 line had a much better pass rush. Clemons did not play up to his previous level, and the 1996 team had a lot of depth at DE. How much of that difference was from raw talent, and how much was from coaching? Branch, Clemons, and Davis all declined in 2015, and only Clemons can be blamed on age.


 

While the '96 DE's had the edge with Brackens, Clyde Simmons, Lageman and Smeenge over Clemons, Odrick, Branch and Alualu, I have to give the '15 DTs the edge at least by the time Sen'Derrick returned. Marks and Roy Miller are a much better do than Jurko and Don Davey.


The 1996 linebackers were two untalented players plus a rookie 1st round pick Hardy. The 2015 Jags had much better LBs, with more overall experience.


 

The biggest difference is Poz over McManus at MLB. Telvin vs Hardy would make for a good debate; Telvin is a bit skinny, but the late round pick might just take an edge over the first round pick here. That's two of the three top LBs, but then you have a very underrated Eddie Robinson who was not at all "untalented" as you describe vs Dan Skuta. I used to think Robinson was possibly better than Hardy until he walked in free agency and joined the Titans, and I definitely think Robinson is better than Skuta.


 

The 1996 DBs were three journeyman backups plus rookie 3rd round pick Beasley. The Jags had House and Colvin at CB, Evans and Cyprien at safety. The total years experience of the two units is 11 for the 1996 group, 9 for the 2015 group. No a big difference in experience. And I still can't figure out why McCray wasn't ahead of Gratz on the depth chart.


 

Agreed. Beasley would go on to be a beast for several years, but not so much his first two seasons. Beasley began making waves in '98.


 

You left out the S position which I would have to give to '96 by a mile with SS Dana Hall and FS Chris Hudson. Both were reliable, savvy vets especially compared to Cyp and Evans or whoever we had back there at any given time last year. Even with Gipson added this year I still have to give '96 the edge at S.


 

 

 

Comparing this year to '96, I'm liking the current roster much better. I just mentioned '96 has an edge at S, but that's about it. At DE it's real close. Compare Brackens, Lags, Simmons and Smeenge to Fowler, Ngakoue, Odrick and Alualu/Holmes. That said, the current DTs, LBs and CBs appear far better on paper than the '96 roster.

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'02

Let's say he goes 10-6 and we win the division to make the playoffs. Will you think Bradley is a good coach?

Depends. Is he calling boneheaded plays, making indefensible clock management decisions and randomly benching his best players in favor of his worst? If he's moved past that and shown that he knows how to win, yes. If not, he's just another mediocre coach that lucked into a great roster.

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Both the 1996 and 2015 teams were 14th in scoring offense. The difference was the defense which is Gus' supposed specialty. So let's look at defense.


On the defensive line, in 2015 Chris Clemons was a talented player with a lot of experience. So were Odrick and Miller. Alualu is not talented IMO, but he was a veteran and a starter for almost all of his career. Hardly an experience gap there. The 1996 line had a much better pass rush. Clemons did not play up to his previous level, and the 1996 team had a lot of depth at DE. How much of that difference was from raw talent, and how much was from coaching? Branch, Clemons, and Davis all declined in 2015, and only Clemons can be blamed on age.


The 1996 linebackers were two untalented players plus a rookie 1st round pick Hardy. The 2015 Jags had much better LBs, with more overall experience.


 

The 1996 DBs were three journeyman backups plus rookie 3rd round pick Beasley. The Jags had House and Colvin at CB, Evans and Cyprien at safety. The total years experience of the two units is 11 for the 1996 group, 9 for the 2015 group. No a big difference in experience. And I still can't figure out why McCray wasn't ahead of Gratz on the depth chart.


 

There was a reason Babich was fired. The talent wasn't nearly as bad as the result, 31st in scoring defense. It's even worse when you factor in the weak offenses the Jags faced last year.


 

The talent for 2016 is far better than 1996, but I still doubt that the Jags make the playoffs. If Gus goes 10-6 this year then I'll be looking out my window for the flying pigs.

Do we really need to reiterate all the probowlers on that team?

And not even just the probowlers. Coughlin was able to pull in tons of free agents. Did you not remember the McCardells, Searcys, Smiths, Robinsons, Means? That roster had a ton of talent.

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Let's say he goes 10-6 and we win the division to make the playoffs. Will you think Bradley is a good coach?

Hmm, if Bradley goes 10-6 than my luck is changing big time and I need to buy some more stock!

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Yes, it's improvement, but it's Blaine Gabbert 2012 level improvement. - Pirkster

http://youtu.be/ouGM3NWpjxk The Home Hypnotist!

http://youtu.be/XQRFkn0Ly3A Media on the Brain Link!
 

Peyton must store oxygen in that forehead of his. No way I'd still be alive after all that choking.

 

Funny how we can say he "IS"  a bad coach without giving him a few seasons with an actual team.

As with most organizations, there are a very few who're really good, a few who're really bad, and most who are just average. Now in Gus's case, he hasn't actually had a winning season here yet and that looks bad. We all know that the main reason for that was the gutting of the team and necessary rebuild.

 

So no, I'm not calling Gus good or bad...yet. He deserves the chance with some decent talent on the roster to demonstrate what he can do. He now has that talent, so this should be a very revealing season where Gus is concerned.

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This.  If he was a good coach he'd have more than 5 wins in a season after 3 years.  If he gets 10-6, it's because of the players.  Bortles, AR15, etc.  If he happens to stay for 3-5 years and has double digit wins every year then I'd say yes at that point.

 

So far, Bradley has had way to many errors, lack of game planning for his opponents, and it has been down right embarrassing at times.  Trust me, I hope it changes, and I think it will.  Just not by his account.

 

I really think Caldwell has done his job.  He has brought in some incredible players.

 

It's funny, apologists point to the level of players that have been rostered for the Jaguars during Gus' tenure, not even realizing they're really arguing he's definitely not a great coach. Period.

 

If he was a great coach he'd have done something with the guys he was dealt by now, even had a signature win or two. No, Gus has never stepped ahead of expectation at all. While it can be argued he can't be fully evaluated to be a terrible coach yet because he's only had the single best performance in a season by a Jaguars starting QB ever, it can't be argued at this point that he's a blue chip coach, which is why he should have been fired in the off season. There's little sense in keeping a guy around that will never be great just because you're not yet convinced he's God awful.

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Both the 1996 and 2015 teams were 14th in scoring offense. The difference was the defense which is Gus' supposed specialty. So let's look at defense.


On the defensive line, in 2015 Chris Clemons was a talented player with a lot of experience. So were Odrick and Miller. Alualu is not talented IMO, but he was a veteran and a starter for almost all of his career. Hardly an experience gap there. The 1996 line had a much better pass rush. Clemons did not play up to his previous level, and the 1996 team had a lot of depth at DE. How much of that difference was from raw talent, and how much was from coaching? Branch, Clemons, and Davis all declined in 2015, and only Clemons can be blamed on age.


The 1996 linebackers were two untalented players plus a rookie 1st round pick Hardy. The 2015 Jags had much better LBs, with more overall experience.


The 1996 DBs were three journeyman backups plus rookie 3rd round pick Beasley. The Jags had House and Colvin at CB, Evans and Cyprien at safety. The total years experience of the two units is 11 for the 1996 group, 9 for the 2015 group. No a big difference in experience. And I still can't figure out why McCray wasn't ahead of Gratz on the depth chart.


There was a reason Babich was fired. The talent wasn't nearly as bad as the result, 31st in scoring defense. It's even worse when you factor in the weak offenses the Jags faced last year.


The talent for 2016 is far better than 1996, but I still doubt that the Jags make the playoffs. If Gus goes 10-6 this year then I'll be looking out my window for the flying pigs.

Way to break it down man! This year is Gus's time to shine. Because you can't make excuses after this year. It's time to produce now.

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It's funny, apologists point to the level of players that have been rostered for the Jaguars during Gus' tenure, not even realizing they're really arguing he's definitely not a great coach. Period.

 

If he was a great coach he'd have done something with the guys he was dealt by now, even had a signature win or two. No, Gus has never stepped ahead of expectation at all. While it can be argued he can't be fully evaluated to be a terrible coach yet because he's only had the single best performance in a season by a Jaguars starting QB ever, it can't be argued at this point that he's a blue chip coach, which is why he should have been fired in the off season. There's little sense in keeping a guy around that will never be great just because you're not yet convinced he's God awful.

 

 

How can you possibly know that he'll "never be great"? The players love Gus and consistently talk about his energy, enthusiasm and ability to motivate. This is a huge asset that some other coaches such as Mularkey totally lack. Morever, he's shown the ability to learn and adjust on the fly wherein he's now able to keep the team healthier while taking advantage of the Jaguars heat and humidity for ultimate conditioning. On the field he made huge strides this past season culminating with a massive whooping of the Colts reminiscent of Coughlin's best slaughters. That second half of the game started to remind me of the 62-7 game vs Miami. Nobody here is arguing that Gus has been a great head coach, but IMHO there is plenty of reason to think he may become one of the league's mastermind head coaches.

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'02

How can you possibly know that he'll "never be great"? The players love Gus and consistently talk about his energy, enthusiasm and ability to motivate. This is a huge asset that some other coaches such as Mularkey totally lack. Morever, he's shown the ability to learn and adjust on the fly wherein he's now able to keep the team healthier while taking advantage of the Jaguars heat and humidity for ultimate conditioning. On the field he made huge strides this past season culminating with a massive whooping of the Colts reminiscent of Coughlin's best slaughters. That second half of the game started to remind me of the 62-7 game vs Miami. Nobody here is arguing that Gus has been a great head coach, but IMHO there is plenty of reason to think he may become one of the league's mastermind head coaches.

 

Remember all of the players hating Coughlin? No one liked playing for the guy.

 

Being a friendly ice cream slinger that everyone likes just doesn't seem to be an important trait to being a great coach, and I already explained why we know he's not a great coach. At best he's a "blending into the crowd" kind of coach, but really so far looks more like a "standing out for all of the wrong reasons" kind of coach.

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That's great! The beauty of your post is that it proves my point that TC was a good coach and Gus has yet to prove that distinction to be true. But for the Gus huggers like your self there's still hope this year. I just want to win regardless who the head coach is.

1.  I never said TC was anything other than a good coach.  I said he has won when he has had talent, and has not won when he hasn't had talent.  His time here in Jacksonville and New York proves it.

 

 

2.  I never said Gus has proven himself to be a good head coach.  My main contention has been he has been saddled with a roster so devoid of talent and experience prior to this year, it was virtually impossible to prove himself to be a good coach or not.  I have been consistent on this point, and this year, I have been consistent in saying talent will not be an issue with him this year.  This is echoed by recent comments from Caldwell.  To me, Bradley must win this year.

 

I am not a "Gus hugger."

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Not only did Coughlin's group have talent, but they also had a lot more experience than the rosters that Gus has had to work with up until this coming season.

 

No one is saying Coughlin wasn't a great coach, but it is very disingenuous to say that Bradley has had a roster to work with that is comparable in talent and experience to what the jags 96 roster had.

Exactly, especially the first two seasons.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

It's funny, apologists point to the level of players that have been rostered for the Jaguars during Gus' tenure, not even realizing they're really arguing he's definitely not a great coach. Period.

 

If he was a great coach he'd have done something with the guys he was dealt by now, even had a signature win or two. No, Gus has never stepped ahead of expectation at all. While it can be argued he can't be fully evaluated to be a terrible coach yet because he's only had the single best performance in a season by a Jaguars starting QB ever, it can't be argued at this point that he's a blue chip coach, which is why he should have been fired in the off season. There's little sense in keeping a guy around that will never be great just because you're not yet convinced he's God awful.

Then explain Coughlin's tenure here.

 

He had a string of 4 consecutive playoff seasons from 1996-1999, but he had losing seasons in 1995, 2000-2002.

 

Was Coughlin NOT a good coach in 1995, 2000, 2001 and 2002, but a good coach from 1996-1999?

 

If there was no difference between Coughlin's coaching ability in the losing seasons and the winning ones, to what do you attribute the disparate results?

 

If there was a difference in Coughlin's coaching ability in the losing season and the winning ones, what were the changes?  What caused the changes?  What lessons did he learn from 1995 to 1996, forget from 1999 to 2000-2003, then, for that matter, suddenly relearn when he was Giants head coach, and forget at the end of his Giants tenure?

 

Is it honestly your assertion talent had nothing to do with those results?  If not, why wouldn't the lack of talent have an adverse effect on Bradley's W-L?

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Then explain Coughlin's tenure here.


He had a string of 4 consecutive playoff seasons from 1996-1999, but he had losing seasons in 1995, 2000-2002.


Was Coughlin NOT a good coach in 1995, 2000, 2001 and 2002, but a good coach from 1996-1999?


If there was no difference between Coughlin's coaching ability in the losing seasons and the winning ones, to what do you attribute the disparate results?


If there was a difference in Coughlin's coaching ability in the losing season and the winning ones, what were the changes? What caused the changes? What lessons did he learn from 1995 to 1996, forget from 1999 to 2000-2003, then, for that matter, suddenly relearn when he was Giants head coach, and forget at the end of his Giants tenure?


Is it honestly your assertion talent had nothing to do with those results? If not, why wouldn't the lack of talent have an adverse effect on Bradley's W-L?

Coughlin took an expansion team and beat the reigning division champion while exceeding expectations to get 4 wins. Nothing Bradleys done here matches that level of success.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Then explain Coughlin's tenure here.

 

He had a string of 4 consecutive playoff seasons from 1996-1999, but he had losing seasons in 1995, 2000-2002.

 

Was Coughlin NOT a good coach in 1995
, 2000, 2001 and 2002, but a good coach from 1996-1999?

 

If there was no difference between Coughlin's coaching ability in the losing seasons and the winning ones, to what do you attribute the disparate results?

 

If there was a difference in Coughlin's coaching ability in the losing season and the winning ones, what were the changes?  What caused the changes?  What lessons did he learn from 1995 to 1996, forget from 1999 to 2000-2003, then, for that matter, suddenly relearn when he was Giants head coach, and forget at the end of his Giants tenure?

 

Is it honestly your assertion talent had nothing to do with those results?  If not, why wouldn't the lack of talent have an adverse effect on Bradley's W-L?

 

You include 1995? Really? 
What a strawman argument. Nobody is saying talent doesn't matter. 

 

The fact is that Coughlin got more from the talent he had than Gus has. Coughlin made some mistakes in 2000-2002, one being taking on too many roles as HC, GM, and OC those years. His biggest mistake was hiring Gary Moeller as DC in 2001. Unlike Gus, Coughlin got rid of his albatross DC after one season, not three, and the 2002 defense was 11th in scoring defense, in spite of a defensive roster that was no better than the 2015 Jags (and the Jags 2015 offense was far far better). Jason F. Craft was starting at CB in 2002; that's essentially defending with ten players. Good coaching can take a mediocre defense and make it competitive, that was proven in 2002.


 

You might also note that Coughlin won more games in every year from 1996-2002 than Gus has in his best year. Not every roster during those years was as good as the 2015 Jags.


 


We'll see this year. I want the Jags to win, everybody here does. Based on observations, and not just from stats although that supports us too, a lot of us doubt that we can ever win with Gus as head coach.


 

Houston, week 6. Three plays starting at 6:15 left in the 3rd quarter.

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"Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?"

Both the 1996 and 2015 teams were 14th in scoring offense. The difference was the defense which is Gus' supposed specialty. So let's look at defense.


On the defensive line, in 2015 Chris Clemons was a talented player with a lot of experience. So were Odrick and Miller. Alualu is not talented IMO, but he was a veteran and a starter for almost all of his career. Hardly an experience gap there. The 1996 line had a much better pass rush. Clemons did not play up to his previous level, and the 1996 team had a lot of depth at DE. How much of that difference was from raw talent, and how much was from coaching? Branch, Clemons, and Davis all declined in 2015, and only Clemons can be blamed on age.


The 1996 linebackers were two untalented players plus a rookie 1st round pick Hardy. The 2015 Jags had much better LBs, with more overall experience.


 

The 1996 DBs were three journeyman backups plus rookie 3rd round pick Beasley. The Jags had House and Colvin at CB, Evans and Cyprien at safety. The total years experience of the two units is 11 for the 1996 group, 9 for the 2015 group. No a big difference in experience. And I still can't figure out why McCray wasn't ahead of Gratz on the depth chart.


 

There was a reason Babich was fired. The talent wasn't nearly as bad as the result, 31st in scoring defense. It's even worse when you factor in the weak offenses the Jags faced last year.


 

The talent for 2016 is far better than 1996, but I still doubt that the Jags make the playoffs. If Gus goes 10-6 this year then I'll be looking out my window for the flying pigs.

I think it simplistic to pin the blame on the defense alone and ergo Bradley alone.  Turnovers are more indicative of what happened.

 

1996 Jaguars were -7 in turnovers after 8 games, -9 after 11 and -3 for the year.  This means when the Jaguars went on their magical run in 1996 when they won 5 straight to reach the playoffs, they went +6 in turnover ratio down that stretch. 

 

The 2015 Jaguars, on the other hand, were -10 in turnovers for the year.  Included in that were several pick 6 or point blank turnovers that dramatically changed the course of games.  There was the Norman pick 6 in week 1, the Grant fumble against Tampa, there was the pick 6 against Houston the next week, there were the two botched shotgun snaps.

 

Yes, you could argue part of the defense's mandate is to force turnovers to either offset offensive miscues or put the offense in better, less desperate positions and that Bradley's defense failed in this area.  But again, considering the absolute lack of investment in that side of the ball until this year, that shouldn't be surprising.  Besides, it's not as though the 1996 defense became the 1983 Skins in that regard during that stretch run.

 

During that five game win streak, the defense forced:

 

2 TO vs Baltimore

2 TO v. Cincy

4 TO v. Houston

1 TO v. Seattle and

0TO v Atlanta

 

More often than not during that stretch, the Jaguars offense didn't turn the ball over much.

 

Most of those were average type games, and that was WITH a young Brackens, Hardy, Beasley, and vets like Clyde Simmons, Jeff Lageman and Joel Smeenge. 

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Coughlin took an expansion team and beat the reigning division champion while exceeding expectations to get 4 wins. Nothing Bradleys done here matches that level of success.


 

 

So because they upset the Steelers in that inaugural year that had few, if any expectations of winning, that offsets Coughlin's not having overall W-L success when he didn't have talent?

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

You include 1995? Really? 
What a strawman argument. Nobody is saying talent doesn't matter. 

 

The fact is that Coughlin got more from the talent he had than Gus has. Coughlin made some mistakes in 2000-2002, one being taking on too many roles as HC, GM, and OC those years. His biggest mistake was hiring Gary Moeller as DC in 2001. Unlike Gus, Coughlin got rid of his albatross DC after one season, not three, and the 2002 defense was 11th in scoring defense, in spite of a defensive roster that was no better than the 2015 Jags (and the Jags 2015 offense was far far better). Jason F. Craft was starting at CB in 2002; that's essentially defending with ten players. Good coaching can take a mediocre defense and make it competitive, that was proven in 2002.


 

You might also note that Coughlin won more games in every year from 1996-2002 than Gus has in his best year. Not every roster during those years was as good as the 2015 Jags.


 


We'll see this year. I want the Jags to win, everybody here does. Based on observations, and not just from stats although that supports us too, a lot of us doubt that we can ever win with Gus as head coach.


 

Houston, week 6. Three plays starting at 6:15 left in the 3rd quarter.

As to the text in bold...male bovine excrement.  The entire premise of your sides argument is that the team hasn't won under Bradley, though EVERYONE knows he hasn't been close to having the talent until the offense started developing over the course of last year.

 

The 2002 defense was no better than last year's defense?

 

Name 3 players on last year's defense as good as second year Marcus Stroud, John Henderson, or Donovin Darius.  

 

This I wanna see.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!