Go deep or go home

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Go deep or go home

 

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“It just shows what kind of team we are. We’re a tough team. We like contact. We’re very physical. We want the issue to be brought to us so we can show people we can stand up to it and overcome it. Seeing that’s just a symbol of our team and who we are.” - Jaguars DT Malik Jackson

The season is over for us. Lets see which wrs play to BB style. For example, Hurns fights for the ball but shorts waits for the ball to get to him. That kind of thing

It's pretty sad when a rookie shows up a 4 year vet in route running and ball skills. I don't think shorts will be here next year.

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All this "complicated" offense has been doing is trying to figure out these young guys strengths and what they do well.

Please tell me what this, "complicated" offense is. I'd love to hear it. Because there is not one offense in the NFL that isn't complicated.

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I think Bridgewater at 3 is better value than Mack at 3, yes.

 

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LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. Clown.
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Please tell me what this, "complicated" offense is. I'd love to hear it. Because there is not one offense in the NFL that isn't complicated.

Hahaha. Tommy, people always find reasons why things aren't working. There are so many theories for this team bc we suck so bad. Me personally, I think it's lack of experience by the WHOLE organization. No one knows what they are doing, except maybe Caldwell.  Players, coaches, owner...Khan/Caldwell should have hired a previous HC because of how new everything is.  Like someone stated in a different thread, this is like an expansion team.  At least have a core of your team in the coaching, so the players have a thing to build on.  It feels like every week the players and coaches are throwing things against a wall to see if it sticks.  A veteran HC would know what works, and what doesn't.

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It's 2014 --- Power O runs are not suited for today's NFL.  The game favors passing.

 

Sorry -- Jack Del Rio is not here anymore and there is very little value for people like Greg Jones at FB.  Power O is gone.

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I think that for one half of a football game that mustered only one sustained drive and your RB has the hot hand, three deep attempts is enough. 

 

I think that this whole narrative about Bortles being so much better slinging the rock downfield and ineffective at short passes is largely misguided and not founded in fact.  It sucks that he and the receivers are having trouble with the short stuff, but I'm not sure how that's Fisch's fault and I don't think tossing sound and balanced football to the wind is the way to fix the problem.  He and the receivers need to execute better. Short, long and everything in between. 

 

Did you read part about two of their first half deep attempts being stopped by QB pressure?  Does that also not limit the number of times you try it? 

 

Yes, I see your point about the pressure limiting the attempts. I'm just not sure I buy that since its very rare in this league for a QB to be able to drop back without pressure. However if those types of passes are what your QB does best, I'd think you keep trying them. You're not going to be successful in every attempt. But I don't think it helps anything by scrapping them and intentionally playing close to the vest football. That just helps the defense have an easier time defending, as we saw both in the first half this past Sunday and at times throughout the past 6 weeks. The intentional conservative passing didn't help curtail INT chances either. If anything there wound up being more passes that hit Cinci defenders right in the hands on those attempts. And a short pass INT is much more dangerous to be taken to the house for a pick 6 or to favorable field position than an INT down the field. An INT on a long attempt usually mirrors the outcome of a punt. 

 

I'm also not sure I agree with your other point about the narrative of Bortles being better with intermediate and deep passes being misguided and not fact based. In watching his play in college and now his short time as a pro he not only appears to be more comfortable with those types of passes, but his mechanics and delivery seem to favor those passes as well. For a QB to be a good short passer he needs a quick, compact release. While Blake's release isn't to the point where its Leftwich-like, there is somewhat of a wind up which I don't think favors the slant or other short passes unless wide open. 

 

I guess what I am saying overall, is that I think that Bortles skill set is not a perfect match for the type of offense Fisch wants to run. Not that Bortles can't run it, but that I believe an offense under a philosophy more like Norv Turner would run, would be a much better fit for Blake's skill set/ attributes. While we likely can't get Turner at this point since he's up in Minnesota, I'm sure that there are other offensive minds out there that run a similar philosophy offense. 

 

I'd like to see Fisch call more running plays inside the 30.

 

I'd actually like to see Fisch call more passing plays to the end zone once inside the 30. It seems a lot of the Jags passing TD seem to be designed to be caught outside the end zone and then have YAC yards get them there. Now this one could be due to the fact that we probably lack a true red zone target but I think Robinson and Hurns have enough size/ physicality to be that in the time being. 

 

It's pretty sad when a rookie shows up a 4 year vet in route running and ball skills. I don't think shorts will be here next year.

 

To be fair, it's only of recent that Hurns started showing this. You would expect a 4 year veteran WR to display this however. I am in agreement there. Shorts is good on some routes but the ones calling for the WR to come back and fight for the ball - not so much. Its probably up to Fisch though, to know which personnel are better fits for certain play calls/ pass routes though. Why keep calling a certain route in game action for Shorts when you know and have seen through past experience that he doesn't execute it well? 

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I would like to see us play more up tempo. It seems like Blake is at the his best when they do that. Also, for the love of all things Holy, get rid of that stupid double pump fake screen play.

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I would like to see us play more up tempo. It seems like Blake is at the his best when they do that. Also, for the love of all things Holy, get rid of that stupid double pump fake screen play.

 

Yes, I would tend to agree with the above. I'd think more no-huddle would be right up Blake's alley, too. The double pump screen play is soooo college and isn't fooling anyone in the NFL. 

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I would like to see us play more up tempo. It seems like Blake is at the his best when they do that. Also, for the love of all things Holy, get rid of that stupid double pump fake screen play.

 

Yes.  That I can buy.

 

 Still - one has the defense's legs to consider and they can't run "tempo" too frequently either. Tricky balance - that one - especially if you can't sustain drives. 

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I've defended Fisch all along and I'm sticking to my guns on him.  (of course I don't love a few situational play calls he's made  - but I like his overall approach and think he's got what it takes)  Last year, he had little talent to work with and this year the talent is  mostly in place but it's green.  I see it all coming together for this offense next year with signs of life currently appearing. 

 

Not trying to be combative, but what have you seen that makes you think Fisch has what it takes? I see a wannabe Shanahan/Kubiak running a gimmicky west coast offense complemented by clip blocking. It's not a confident approach.  

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"I am only an average man, but by George, I work harder at it than the average man." - Teddy Roosevelt

Yes, I see your point about the pressure limiting the attempts. I'm just not sure I buy that since its very rare in this league for a QB to be able to drop back without pressure. However if those types of passes are what your QB does best, I'd think you keep trying them. You're not going to be successful in every attempt. But I don't think it helps anything by scrapping them and intentionally playing close to the vest football. That just helps the defense have an easier time defending, as we saw both in the first half this past Sunday and at times throughout the past 6 weeks. The intentional conservative passing didn't help curtail INT chances either. If anything there wound up being more passes that hit Cinci defenders right in the hands on those attempts. And a short pass INT is much more dangerous to be taken to the house for a pick 6 or to favorable field position than an INT down the field. An INT on a long attempt usually mirrors the outcome of a punt. 

 

 

I'll just agree to disagree. I appreciate your opinion.  I just think saying "let the kid chuck it deep because he stinks at the short game" is a cop-out. Rivers and Brees throw tons of short passes betwixt the deep attempts they take. Brady too.  He has to be able to do both. Gameplanning to your players strengths is important, but you can't abandon a very large portion of the playbook to do it.  They don't call them "high percentage plays" for nothing.   Bone-headed picks or not -  they are what they are. Again - it isn't bad play design or play-calling that's making Bortles throw picks on short routes. It's a rookie being a rookie. 

 

 Besides - there were seven first half possessions I think?  He tried and failed to go deep on three of them.  So we're talking about one or two more deep passes required to "balance it out?"  Not a big deal IMO  -  and I hope we see the one or two more deep tries in the first half this week. 

 

I think his deep ball has been pretty inaccurate as well.  I've seen receivers playing DB on a number of them.  I feel confident Fisch will dial up plenty more aggressive plays when Blake and the protection can execute them better. If that doesn't happen - we have a problem.

We are fortunate to have a QB that wants to look and throw downfield and I'd be really shocked if the OC doesn't plan on taking advantage of that. I think he wants to use the run and short passing game to get near mid-field first so that a long INT is essentially a short punt (especially on third down) and that's not unreasonable in my mind with a rookie QB. 

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I'll just agree to disagree. I appreciate your opinion.  I just think saying "let the kid chuck it deep because he stinks at the short game" is a cop-out. Rivers and Brees throw tons of short passes betwixt the deep attempts they take. Brady too.  He has to be able to do both. Gameplanning to your players strengths is important, but you can't abandon a very large portion of the playbook to do it.  They don't call them "high percentage plays" for nothing.   Bone-headed picks or not -  they are what they are. Again - it isn't bad play design or play-calling that's making Bortles throw picks on short routes. It's a rookie being a rookie. 

 

 Besides - there were seven first half possessions I think?  He tried and failed to go deep on three of them.  So we're talking about one or two more deep passes required to "balance it out?"  Not a big deal IMO  -  and I hope we see the one or two more deep tries in the first half this week. 

 

I think his deep ball has been pretty inaccurate as well.  I've seen receivers playing DB on a number of them.  I feel confident Fisch will dial up plenty more aggressive plays when Blake and the protection can execute them better. If that doesn't happen - we have a problem.

We are fortunate to have a QB that wants to look and throw downfield and I'd be really shocked if the OC doesn't plan on taking advantage of that. I think he wants to use the run and short passing game to get near mid-field first so that a long INT is essentially a short punt (especially on third down) and that's not unreasonable in my mind with a rookie QB. 

 

 

Yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I get having some screens in there as I think the screen can be very effective. You can't have all deep passes. However, where are the seam passes in this offense?? Those are very effective mid-range passes for other teams and it doesn't appear like we attack the seams much - yet I think we have the personnel to be very effective with them if they were called more. 

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Not trying to be combative, but what have you seen that makes you think Fisch has what it takes? I see a wannabe Shanahan/Kubiak running a gimmicky west coast offense complemented by clip blocking. It's not a confident approach.  

 

Much of it comes from his press conferences. On three or four occasions (last year and this year) he's responded to questions about more aggressive play-calling being desired with a response that I took as "we want to do that but we're not quite there yet." That's paraphrased and reading between the lines a little bit - but it's what I took to be his intention. I think they are much, much closer to the point of being able to do that. I expect too see glimmers of it this year and a healthy installation in the offseason.

 For now - starting 5, or 6 rookies in some of these games can't be ignored when it comes to the playbook and play calling.  It would be really easy to have those guys out there looking completely lost, and at times they still do. 


Also - I disliked the ZBS until I saw what Denard can do running in it. It's growing on me.  I think the gimmicks will lessen as the rookies gain experience and the smoke and mirrors aren't so necessary. 
 

(Also - this is a generalization - but I've found that Madden football has made everyone and their sister overly critical of OCs league wide and I prefer a little patience) 

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 However, where are the seam passes in this offense?? 

Seemingly on the bench wearing #89.  I'd like to see more of that too.  I did see it with Lewis out there a couple of times.  I think Hurns runs the route from the slot sometimes - but doesn't get the favored LB match-up.  Look at the middle player on the 40 yd line of the second pic I posted. 

 

I think we also may be over-assuming how much of the playbook Blake has been able to digest and take on. Jedd said that Bortles has the liberty to remove plays from the game plan that he's not confident running.  We have no idea how this may be limiting what is happening on the field. The kid is raw. 

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However, where are the seam passes in this offense?? Those are very effective mid-range passes for other teams and it doesn't appear like we attack the seams much - yet I think we have the personnel to be very effective with them if they were called more. 

 

 

Seemingly on the bench wearing #89.  I'd like to see more of that too.  I did see it with Lewis out there a couple of times.  I think Hurns runs the route from the slot sometimes - but doesn't get the favored LB match-up.  Look at the middle player on the 40 yd line of the second pic I posted. 

 

 

If Marcedes is the only player Fisch is calling seam routes for then thats a problem. They weren't even calling many for Marcedes when he was in there as it was. 

 

To me it just seems that Fisch prefers a horizontal offense rather than a vertical one, philosophy wise. That doesn't mean that Fisch won't ever utilize mid-range or down field attempts, just that he doesn't utilize them enough and he only seems to like to utilize them when the situation mandates it (when the Jags get behind). I think the Jags would be better off using more of the mid range and deeper passes aggressively in the beginning and even when ahead to try and build leads, but Fisch don't seem like that type of OC.

 

Lets be honest here - his offenses in Miami weren't exactly all that, either. I could buy the above where you were citing Fisch as claiming the offense "not ready" yet for more aggressive play calling if there actually was a history of that in Fisch's resume. But to me it seems like it "what you see is what you've got" with Fisch as an OC. He's never been one who has presided over a really high scoring, aggressive offense - not in the NFL and not in his background in college. He's got a track record of decent offenses at times in college but thats about the ceiling of it all.  

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Lets be honest here - his offenses in Miami weren't exactly all that, either. I could buy the above where you were citing Fisch as claiming the offense "not ready" yet for more aggressive play calling if there actually was a history of that in Fisch's resume. But to me it seems like it "what you see is what you've got" with Fisch as an OC. He's never been one who has presided over a really high scoring, aggressive offense - not in the NFL and not in his background in college. He's got a track record of decent offenses at times in college but thats about the ceiling of it all.  

Let's be honest?  I have been.   ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

I feel comfortable in assuming that the playbook he's putting together for Bortles and company isn't some facsimile of what he did in Miami for a college football team.  If I'm wrong - I'll know it early next season and I'll eat my crow. 

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To me it just seems that Fisch prefers a horizontal offense rather than a vertical one, philosophy wise. 

I find that to be a gross over-simplification of the issue at hand and contrary to the words that have come from both Blake and Jedd's own mouths.

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Let's be honest?  I have been.   ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

I feel comfortable in assuming that the playbook he's putting together for Bortles and company isn't some facsimile of what he did in Miami for a college football team.  If I'm wrong - I'll know it early next season and I'll eat my crow. 

 

Haha, its just a phrase. We've both been honest I think, lol. 

 

I disagree with you though in that why wouldn't you expect the offense for Fisch now to be reminiscent of the offense he ran in Miami. It looks pretty similar to me. People can't have it both ways - they claim things like "Hurns is doing so well now because its the same offense Fisch ran when the 2 were together in Miami", and then you claim above, the opposite - that you don't see the offense as some facsimile of it. 

 

I find that to be a gross over-simplification of the issue at hand and contrary to the words that have come from both Blake and Jedd's own mouths.

 

When it comes to football players or coaches comments, I tend to take them maybe not with a grain of salt - but to realize that theres often a positive spin always being portrayed to the cameras. I've seen players in bad offenses over the years that wouldn't throw their bosses under the bus, - at least while they still were their bosses anyway, haha. 

 

You're right in that time will only resolve the absolute truth in this matter. 

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