This is where I'm torn. I agree with what you say, that very likely would have been the way the press would go with it. I do think though, even if it's an interview on the website, he could say something. But then I think it's just going to be Ramsey questions and go the first way anyway. I did feel sorry for Marrone having to field those questions and not having any answers. It looks from the outsude that it's a pretty chaotic FO setup which is very un-Coughlin

What gives you the impression the FO is "chaotic?"

I just mean with how the Houston sideline incident was 'all good', then Ramsey trade gets leaked, Ramsey not practicing, 'injured' but were saying hes injured, endless trade rumours in the press,Khan saying hell play and Ramsey not. Marrones press conference. Ramsey giving his version.

I'm not saying it's on the FO, 99% was Ramsey, but other than Marrone we've heard very little from upstairs. It just doesn't look like a Coughlin run FO at the moment. I'm just saying from the outside, it looks a bit messy at the moment.

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Two wrongs don't make a right.....
Bottom line is it's done, it's over and the guy that came in a Brink's truck
that thought he was going to bully the team into a big contract ....and when he didn't got his butt on his shoulder....
is now LA's baby....in more ways than one.
Let's just move on.

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"Stay tight, stay close. Great things are going to continue to happen for this football team."  - Doug Peterson

What gives you the impression the FO is "chaotic?"

I just mean with how the Houston sideline incident was 'all good', then Ramsey trade gets leaked, Ramsey not practicing, 'injured' but were saying hes injured, endless trade rumours in the press,Khan saying hell play and Ramsey not. Marrones press conference. Ramsey giving his version.

I'm not saying it's on the FO, 99% was Ramsey, but other than Marrone we've heard very little from upstairs. It just doesn't look like a Coughlin run FO at the moment. I'm just saying from the outside, it looks a bit messy at the moment.

The handling of the JR trade demand from a PR standpoint was clumsy.

I didn't get any impression that the FO is chaotic in any way from that. 

Simply that they could have been a bit more graceful about handling it from a PR perspective. The SI article that was recently posted on the trade actually revealed Khan and the FO handled the whole scenario with patience and focus on receiving a maximum return.  

And Khan saying Ramsey would play was one of two things:

a. Gamesmanship on his part to out the faked injury aspect or
b.  A successful business owner in the middle of a Wall Street Journal interview about his business giving a Sunday School answer. He merely speculated that "I think he'll play this week." 

Marrone's presser showed us a coach frustrated by losing talent and unhappy about being tasked with answering questions better asked of TC/DC.  That, again, doesn't tell me that the FO is "chaotic."   They just decided (for better or worse) not to put themselves in front of cameras about it.

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I just mean with how the Houston sideline incident was 'all good', then Ramsey trade gets leaked, Ramsey not practicing, 'injured' but were saying hes injured, endless trade rumours in the press,Khan saying hell play and Ramsey not. Marrones press conference. Ramsey giving his version.

I'm not saying it's on the FO, 99% was Ramsey, but other than Marrone we've heard very little from upstairs. It just doesn't look like a Coughlin run FO at the moment. I'm just saying from the outside, it looks a bit messy at the moment.

The handling of the JR trade demand from a PR standpoint was clumsy.

I didn't get any impression that the FO is chaotic in any way from that. 

Simply that they could have been a bit more graceful about handling it from a PR perspective. The SI article that was recently posted on the trade actually revealed Khan and the FO handled the whole scenario with patience and focus on receiving a maximum return.  

And Khan saying Ramsey would play was one of two things:

a. Gamesmanship on his part to out the faked injury aspect or
b.  A successful business owner in the middle of a Wall Street Journal interview about his business giving a Sunday School answer. He merely speculated that "I think he'll play this week." 

Marrone's presser showed us a coach frustrated by losing talent and unhappy about being tasked with answering questions better asked of TC/DC.  That, again, doesn't tell me that the FO is "chaotic."   They just decided (for better or worse) not to put themselves in front of cameras about it.

Maybe chaotic was the wrong word but like you say, from a PR view we looked clumsy and that's all I'm saying. I dont think the FO is clumsy, I like Coughlin but hes not coming out of this looking good. He has an NFL reputation and the Ramsey saga seemed a bit messy. That's all my point is.

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More autocratic than chaotic.

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This is where I'm torn. I agree with what you say, that very likely would have been the way the press would go with it. I do think though, even if it's an interview on the website, he could say something. But then I think it's just going to be Ramsey questions and go the first way anyway. I did feel sorry for Marrone having to field those questions and not having any answers. It looks from the outsude that it's a pretty chaotic FO setup which is very un-Coughlin

What gives you the impression the FO is "chaotic?"

I don't know if I would call it "chaotic," but the problem I have with the current structure is that it is hard to assign responsibility for anything.  Who's in charge of drafting?  Who's in charge of player discipline?  Why is the front office confronting a player about his behavior?  

I know we're not necessarily supposed to know all this stuff, but look at how we argue all the time among ourselves about who made what draft pick, who decided to hire a particular free agent, etc.  Does the EVP just hang around and override the GM or the coach whenever he feels like it?  That's not a good structure.  If you have a GM who needs that kind of supervision, then you need a new GM.  Same deal with the coach.  

We've seen this kind of dysfunction all over the league, when someone above the GM (usually an owner) insists on a draft pick.  It's a bad structure.  We seem to have created a position which we call Executive Vice President of Football Operations, but can better be described as "Designated Meddler."

I know Ramsey was wrong, and he probably had to be dealt, but any decent supervisor knows that you do not confront an employee when they are in a very emotional state.   It was a very bad decision to drag Ramsey into a room right after a loss, right after he and the head coach had a pretty major confrontation, and have any kind of conversation with him about it.  This is management 101.  That was nothing but a front office temper tantrum.  Very bad management.

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What gives you the impression the FO is "chaotic?"

I don't know if I would call it "chaotic," but the problem I have with the current structure is that it is hard to assign responsibility for anything.  Who's in charge of drafting?  Who's in charge of player discipline?  Why is the front office confronting a player about his behavior?  

I know we're not necessarily supposed to know all this stuff, but look at how we argue all the time among ourselves about who made what draft pick, who decided to hire a particular free agent, etc.  Does the EVP just hang around and override the GM or the coach whenever he feels like it?  That's not a good structure.  If you have a GM who needs that kind of supervision, then you need a new GM.  Same deal with the coach.  

We've seen this kind of dysfunction all over the league, when someone above the GM (usually an owner) insists on a draft pick.  It's a bad structure.  We seem to have created a position which we call Executive Vice President of Football Operations, but can better be described as "Designated Meddler."

I know Ramsey was wrong, and he probably had to be dealt, but any decent supervisor knows that you do not confront an employee when they are in a very emotional state.   It was a very bad decision to drag Ramsey into a room right after a loss, right after he and the head coach had a pretty major confrontation, and have any kind of conversation with him about it.  This is management 101.  That was nothing but a front office temper tantrum.  Very bad management.

Everything you said is speculation formed on your bias against what you think is wrong. If your employee put his hands on a member of your leadership, in public no less, and you did nothing then you should be fired.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

I don't know if I would call it "chaotic," but the problem I have with the current structure is that it is hard to assign responsibility for anything.  Who's in charge of drafting?  Who's in charge of player discipline?  Why is the front office confronting a player about his behavior?  

I know we're not necessarily supposed to know all this stuff, but look at how we argue all the time among ourselves about who made what draft pick, who decided to hire a particular free agent, etc.  Does the EVP just hang around and override the GM or the coach whenever he feels like it?  That's not a good structure.  If you have a GM who needs that kind of supervision, then you need a new GM.  Same deal with the coach.  

We've seen this kind of dysfunction all over the league, when someone above the GM (usually an owner) insists on a draft pick.  It's a bad structure.  We seem to have created a position which we call Executive Vice President of Football Operations, but can better be described as "Designated Meddler."

I know Ramsey was wrong, and he probably had to be dealt, but any decent supervisor knows that you do not confront an employee when they are in a very emotional state.   It was a very bad decision to drag Ramsey into a room right after a loss, right after he and the head coach had a pretty major confrontation, and have any kind of conversation with him about it.  This is management 101.  That was nothing but a front office temper tantrum.  Very bad management.

Everything you said is speculation formed on your bias against what you think is wrong. If your employee put his hands on a member of your leadership, in public no less, and you did nothing then you should be fired.

When did I say I would do nothing?  

Is what happened after the post-game conversation what you wanted to happen?  I'm saying there was a much better way to handle it, that might or might not have produced a better outcome, and that what happened is an example of a dysfunctional organizational structure.  

Do not confront anyone when they are in an emotional state.  That's just a basic rule of life.  Avoid escalating the situation.  But someone (cough cough) in the front office decided to stand up for the coach (which undermines the coach) and everything went off the rails.

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Everything you said is speculation formed on your bias against what you think is wrong. If your employee put his hands on a member of your leadership, in public no less, and you did nothing then you should be fired.

When did I say I would do nothing?  

Is what happened after the post-game conversation what you wanted to happen?  I'm saying there was a much better way to handle it, that might or might not have produced a better outcome, and that what happened is an example of a dysfunctional organizational structure.  

Do not confront anyone when they are in an emotional state.  That's just a basic rule of life.  Avoid escalating the situation.  But someone (cough cough) in the front office decided to stand up for the coach (which undermines the coach) and everything went off the rails.

Lol, Coughlin, if we continue to accept the quitter's vague explanation, didn't run down on the field and pull him off by his ear. He met with him at some time (when is still uncertain) to tell him to knock it off. You are making excuses for the player's childish behavior. Based on what we saw on the sideline the player should've been suspended, but the FO went easy on him, a mistake that only emboldened the diva behavior.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Lol, Coughlin, if we continue to accept the quitter's vague explanation, didn't run down on the field and pull him off by his ear. He met with him at some time (when is still uncertain) to tell him to knock it off. You are making excuses for the player's childish behavior. Based on what we saw on the sideline the player should've been suspended, but the FO went easy on him, a mistake that only emboldened the diva behavior.

Why is it so hard for people to just say Ramsey have Coughlin have both been out of line during their tenures here? Other than nostalgia I see no reason to defend Coughlin either. Both of them need/needed to go.

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Lol, Coughlin, if we continue to accept the quitter's vague explanation, didn't run down on the field and pull him off by his ear. He met with him at some time (when is still uncertain) to tell him to knock it off. You are making excuses for the player's childish behavior. Based on what we saw on the sideline the player should've been suspended, but the FO went easy on him, a mistake that only emboldened the diva behavior.

Why is it so hard for people to just say Ramsey have Coughlin have both been out of line during their tenures here? Other than nostalgia I see no reason to defend Coughlin either. Both of them need/needed to go.

Because there's no credible evidence that Coughlin did anything out of line, meanwhile, the quitter gave us more than enough documented proof of his misdeeds.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Why is it so hard for people to just say Ramsey have Coughlin have both been out of line during their tenures here? Other than nostalgia I see no reason to defend Coughlin either. Both of them need/needed to go.

Because there's no credible evidence that Coughlin did anything out of line, meanwhile, the quitter gave us more than enough documented proof of his misdeeds.

He got reprimanded by the league office for publicly calling out players not attending voluntary workouts. And we know enough of the story to say that him chewing out Ramsey in the locker room was beyond the scope of his duties as well. The locker room is Marrone's and Coughlin stepped over the line.

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Because there's no credible evidence that Coughlin did anything out of line, meanwhile, the quitter gave us more than enough documented proof of his misdeeds.

He got reprimanded by the league office for publicly calling out players not attending voluntary workouts. And we know enough of the story to say that him chewing out Ramsey in the locker room was beyond the scope of his duties as well. The locker room is Marrone's and Coughlin stepped over the line.

The two things you're calling out TC about are both rather mundane and were incredibly commonplace just a few years ago in this league. 

I agree that TC should have channeled his displeasure through Marrone after the sideline incident rather than take matters into his own hands, but I also believe Ramsey's behavior warranted more than just a talking-to. 

I'd have suspended him for a game and/or fined him for conduct detrimental AFTER meeting with Marrone and getting everyone on the same page.

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Not sure why some here is so quick to proclaim he knows nothing about football.

Likely because they know little to nothing themselves.
Especially about how much a man knows that they don't know personally or see how involved he is behind the scenes.

I wonder how much Stephen Jones knew before Jerry brought him along in the office.
Or Johnathan Kraft...

or... well, you get the point.

Fans gonna fan.

EVP likely doesn't have much hands on decisions with the actual football part of the team, rather resides over making sure the front office has the right guys.
With his analytics background, I don't know why he couldn't look around the league and find the right guy to replace Caldwell so that the EVP doesn't have to play babysitter to football decisions.

Like Coughlin was brought in to make sure Caldwell was doing his job right, or whatever (or perhaps, still isn't... top 5 RB that has an old school style, although playing much better for sure, extending Blake, handling of Yan and Ramsey situations, etc.)

I don't hate the idea.
Don't really care who the EVP is really. Want a competent GM and HC and a good roster... I don't think Tony Khan being EVP will hinder that (and to those that say he doesn't know anything about football, I'm sure he knows 100 times as much as us message board folks)

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I like Coughlin and I do think Ramsey was responsible for most of the drama. This isn't against TC but I remember watching an Americas Game with the SB Giants and Strahan talks about how much he hated Camp Coughlin, he fines you for being on time and Strahan said hed only play 1 year under him.

Now Coughlin as a HC built teams. That Giants team wasnt full of superstars but he tried to build a team that played for each other, he built men. Look at the years they win the SB. Playoff routes @ Tampa, @ Dallas, @ Green Bay. Thats as brutal a playoff run you can have but he built a team that could go to those places and win.

Sadly i dont find many of those 'old school' characteristics in many modern athletes and that's across sports. The attitude does seem to be 'I can get paid elsewhere'. If its not perfect I'll go elsewhere.

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Why is it so hard for people to just say Ramsey have Coughlin have both been out of line during their tenures here? Other than nostalgia I see no reason to defend Coughlin either. Both of them need/needed to go.

Because there's no credible evidence that Coughlin did anything out of line, meanwhile, the quitter gave us more than enough documented proof of his misdeeds.

I will say this (based on the interview he recently gave).
He was called into a meeting with 4 guys... presumably two Khans, Caldwell, and Coughlin.

2 guys (who he said he had mad respect for) assuming the Khans were sitting and the other two stood (over) him guessing Caldwell and Coughlin. I doubt they actually stood over him but certainly can see angry Tom standing at the end of the table arms crossed the whole time or wagging his finger.
He probably talked down to him and called him a child, baby, or something of the like. Regardless of his behavior on the sideline (which we see blow ups from super stars from time to time a lot) there is a certain way to address a man and a certain way not to.
I will never agree with how Ramsey went about quitting on this team but I could totally see if the meeting played out anything like it did in his interview that I would want out too.

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Not sure why some here is so quick to proclaim he knows nothing about football.

Likely because they know little to nothing themselves.
Especially about how much a man knows that they don't know personally or see how involved he is behind the scenes.
...

...

I don't hate the idea.
Don't really care who the EVP is really. Want a competent GM and HC and a good roster... I don't think Tony Khan being EVP will hinder that (and to those that say he doesn't know anything about football, I'm sure he knows 100 times as much as us message board folks)

There may not even be an EVP if they move on from TC. 
They may place (or retain) a GM they trust without the bridge position between ownership and GM. 

Regarding this and the various "fire this guy or that guy" threads:
I don't think any of those debates carry much weight until the Jags hit 9 losses for the 2019 season. I think that's what it will take for Khan to make major changes.

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Because there's no credible evidence that Coughlin did anything out of line, meanwhile, the quitter gave us more than enough documented proof of his misdeeds.

He got reprimanded by the league office for publicly calling out players not attending voluntary workouts. And we know enough of the story to say that him chewing out Ramsey in the locker room was beyond the scope of his duties as well. The locker room is Marrone's and Coughlin stepped over the line.

You and some others keep saying that reprimanding a player is beyond the scope of his duties. You’re asserting facts that are not in evidence. He is the football czar. Other than the owner, he is at the top of the chain of command. He is within his authority to do what he did. You may not like that fact or you may think that it was counterproductive. But he was not wrong. So would you need to understand that occasionally in life it’s not both people were wrong it’s one person was wrong. And Ramsey was that person.



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Fix the O-Line!

Likely because they know little to nothing themselves.
Especially about how much a man knows that they don't know personally or see how involved he is behind the scenes.
...

...

I don't hate the idea.
Don't really care who the EVP is really. Want a competent GM and HC and a good roster... I don't think Tony Khan being EVP will hinder that (and to those that say he doesn't know anything about football, I'm sure he knows 100 times as much as us message board folks)

There may not even be an EVP if they move on from TC. 
They may place (or retain) a GM they trust without the bridge position between ownership and GM. 

Regarding this and the various "fire this guy or that guy" threads:
I don't think any of those debates carry much weight until the Jags hit 9 losses for the 2019 season. I think that's what it will take for Khan to make major changes.

For sure... wasn't the EVP role basically created for Tom as 'overseer' because Shad basically admitted he needed more football knowledge making big decisions.

You get a John Dorsey type GM in here... probably don't need a babysitter (which is what I've called Toms role all along)

I really like the idea of bringing in Louis Riddick if they make a change in the front office. And you're right, I think if we finish with 9 wins, Shad will be hard pressed to blow it all up.

I really think TC is rubbing players the wrong way though and should retire or... "retire"

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He got reprimanded by the league office for publicly calling out players not attending voluntary workouts. And we know enough of the story to say that him chewing out Ramsey in the locker room was beyond the scope of his duties as well. The locker room is Marrone's and Coughlin stepped over the line.

You and some others keep saying that reprimanding a player is beyond the scope of his duties. You’re asserting facts that are not in evidence.  He is the football czar. Other than the owner, he is at the top of the chain of command. He is within his authority to do what he did. You may not like that fact or you may think that it was counterproductive. But he was not wrong. So would you need to understand that occasionally in life it’s not both people were wrong it’s one person was wrong. And Ramsey was that person.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't care how high up in the organization you are, reprimanding a player is for the head coach to do. For someone above the HC to do the reprimanding makes the HC look weak.  Reprimanding him immediately after a loss in which he had an emotional meltdown is pure malpractice.  This is people management 101.   

This is why I am saying we don't need this kind of EVP.  If you like TC, make him the HC or make him the GM.  Setting up a 3rd position above those 2 is a mistake.

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