I think Marty's question comes from a place of trying to make or enforce a law against corruption.  If the candidate claims not to know who their rich supporters are, any law against corruption becomes very difficult, if not impossible to enforce. I'm just coming from the perspective of, sure, let's punish the ones who don't even try to hide it, or who accept money from foreigners or from criminals, but also let's not pretend we are ever going to find a politician who is not corrupt or a law that perfectly prevents corruption.  Monasticism would be the closest thing but it has obvious downsides.

You really think there are no politicians who have principles that they adhere to?  And that every single politician out there will go against their principles because they have financial supporters who ask them to?   I think there are a lot of those, but I don't think it's every single one.  You seem to think every single politician, without exception, is dishonest.

He thinks correctly for once.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

I think Marty's question comes from a place of trying to make or enforce a law against corruption.  If the candidate claims not to know who their rich supporters are, any law against corruption becomes very difficult, if not impossible to enforce. I'm just coming from the perspective of, sure, let's punish the ones who don't even try to hide it, or who accept money from foreigners or from criminals, but also let's not pretend we are ever going to find a politician who is not corrupt or a law that perfectly prevents corruption.  Monasticism would be the closest thing but it has obvious downsides.

You really think there are no politicians who have principles that they adhere to?  And that every single politician out there will go against their principles because they have financial supporters who ask them to?   I think there are a lot of those, but I don't think it's every single one.  You seem to think every single politician, without exception, is dishonest.

I'd say it depends on their reason for going into politics. If it's because they're idealists and truly think they can change things for the better, they're less likely to be tainted by corruption. At least initially and until they come to understand how Washington works. If their goal is to gain power and influence then they'll do whatever they have to in order to get it.

Did you ever watch the Netflix series House of Cards? I remember reading or watching an interview Kevin Spacey did around the time of the first season. His character was a majority whip in the Senate and Spacey spent time with various politicians at the Capitol building to get a feel for how it all actually works. He was asked if it was as treacherous as it is portrayed in the show and he said absolutely it was. He was shocked by it all. 

I believe even the most idealistic folks go in thinking they can change things for the better but realize at some point they have to choose between sticking with their principles and bowing out, or blur the lines which means accepting money from folks and/or making deals that are contrary to their principles in order to possibly get what they want. In fact, most high dollar donors have expectations of the guy or girl they're backing and that influence is very real. 

I'd say the longer they stay in the more corrupt they become because that kind of power and influence is like a drug and the career politicians are all addicts.

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And yet many here, despite giving proof that she was being bribed to get out of the race, will call Kari Lake a self-interested, opportunist.

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And yet many here, despite giving proof that she was being bribed to get out of the race, will call Kari Lake a self-interested, opportunist.

Why take small potatoes when the whole pot roast is just ahead?

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

And yet many here, despite giving proof that she was being bribed to get out of the race, will call Kari Lake a self-interested, opportunist.

Money motivation is not the only possible corrupt motivation.

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Sure, if you count undermining the elites as corruption.

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Sure, if you count undermining the entire election process that is the foundation of our entire system of government the elites as corruption.

And I do! Why don't you?

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Because I'm not a simpleton.

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Because I'm not a simpleton.

Yeah, only a simpleton would value elections.  A richly complex and layered man such as yourself would say, "meh, I wasn't voting anyways."

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Because I'm not a simpleton.

Yeah, only a simpleton would value elections.  A richly complex and layered man such as yourself would say, "meh, I wasn't voting since the vote counters cheat my vote doesnt matter anyways."

Ftfy.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Because I'm not a simpleton.

Yeah, only a simpleton would value elections.  A richly complex and layered man such as yourself would say, "meh, I wasn't voting anyways."

Look, dude. Here is what you and the other moderates who can't tolerate discomfort fail to seem to understand.

It takes the collective voice of the people to put pressure on the elites. They need to fear us. Not necessarily in a violent way, but at the very least in our ability to take away their power. This can't happen because too many of you keep taking it up the [BLEEP], because that's just how it is. Our last election was a complete [BLEEP] show. You allowed mail-in voting. They changed years of voting procedure overnight, without proper democratic measures because of Covid. You allowed people to harvest ballots. You allowed big money interference. You allowed the narrative to be crafted around the election instantly and you went with it unquestioningly. You allowed polling places to throw out observers, and you allowed weeks of delayed vote counting until, miraculously, every swing state had just enough votes for Biden to win. You tolerated half-[BLEEP] investigations and didn't even think twice about how quickly the entire media complex just drove right past these issues. 

You cannot trust the powers that be. You just can't. You can't have a transparent and accountable system without scrutiny. You can't have scrutiny without responsible media that works FOR the people. If you believe that's what we have currently, you're a fool. Our media is corrupt to the core. They do what they do for money. The people with money control what is said and not said, not to the tiniest minutia, obviously, but generally, by putting pressure on networks via control of advertising revenue. 

And here's the deal, I have said this since the day of the election: Our job was not to overthrow Biden and put Trump back in the White House because of these shenanigans. Our job was to clamor for a more transparent system, demand a thorough investigation, demand our journalists seek out answers, demand accountability for elected officials and bureaucrats that take it upon themselves change the laws unilaterally, and demand big money gets out of politics. 

Our collective voice matters. It doesn't matter if Trump was cheated or not. Our electoral system is clearly mistrusted by both the right AND the left. It's mistrusted because powerful people are breaking it. They are breaking it for their own greed and self-interest, and you keep running around talking about stupid [BLEEP] like your vote matters. Money matters. You're delusional, complacent, and the reason our system is failing. You're uneducated and lazy, but you're comfortable.

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Yeah, only a simpleton would value elections.  A richly complex and layered man such as yourself would say, "meh, I wasn't voting anyways."

Look, dude. Here is what you and the other moderates who can't tolerate discomfort fail to seem to understand.

It takes the collective voice of the people to put pressure on the elites. They need to fear us. Not necessarily in a violent way, but at the very least in our ability to take away their power. This can't happen because too many of you keep taking it up the [BLEEP], because that's just how it is. Our last election was a complete [BLEEP] show. You allowed mail-in voting. They changed years of voting procedure overnight, without proper democratic measures because of Covid. You allowed people to harvest ballots. You allowed big money interference. You allowed the narrative to be crafted around the election instantly and you went with it unquestioningly. You allowed polling places to throw out observers, and you allowed weeks of delayed vote counting until, miraculously, every swing state had just enough votes for Biden to win. You tolerated half-[BLEEP] investigations and didn't even think twice about how quickly the entire media complex just drove right past these issues. 

You cannot trust the powers that be. You just can't. You can't have a transparent and accountable system without scrutiny. You can't have scrutiny without responsible media that works FOR the people. If you believe that's what we have currently, you're a fool. Our media is corrupt to the core. They do what they do for money. The people with money control what is said and not said, not to the tiniest minutia, obviously, but generally, by putting pressure on networks via control of advertising revenue. 

And here's the deal, I have said this since the day of the election: Our job was not to overthrow Biden and put Trump back in the White House because of these shenanigans. Our job was to clamor for a more transparent system, demand a thorough investigation, demand our journalists seek out answers, demand accountability for elected officials and bureaucrats that take it upon themselves change the laws unilaterally, and demand big money gets out of politics. 

Our collective voice matters. It doesn't matter if Trump was cheated or not. Our electoral system is clearly mistrusted by both the right AND the left. It's mistrusted because powerful people are breaking it. They are breaking it for their own greed and self-interest, and you keep running around talking about stupid [BLEEP] like your vote matters. Money matters. You're delusional, complacent, and the reason our system is failing. You're uneducated and lazy, but you're comfortable.

The 2020 election was investigated more than any other election in history.  It was even investigated by people who claimed, prior to their investigation, that there was cheating and they would expose it (see Cyber Ninjas, Arizona).   They failed to find the cheating they claimed they would find.  

I think the reason you think there wasn't a thorough investigation is because the investigators didn't come to the conclusion you wanted, or failed to turn up the evidence you thought they should turn up.

And as for me "taking it up the [BLEEP]," I don't think I am.  So you think somehow the system is [BLEEP] you over?  Why?  What is going on in your life that makes you think the system is putting it up your [BLEEP]?  I'm asking because I am curious as to why a seemingly intelligent person would believe what you believe, about the system conspiring against you.

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No. It wasn't. It was widely reported much more than it was widely investigated.

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Look, dude. Here is what you and the other moderates who can't tolerate discomfort fail to seem to understand.

It takes the collective voice of the people to put pressure on the elites. They need to fear us. Not necessarily in a violent way, but at the very least in our ability to take away their power. This can't happen because too many of you keep taking it up the [BLEEP], because that's just how it is. Our last election was a complete [BLEEP] show. You allowed mail-in voting. They changed years of voting procedure overnight, without proper democratic measures because of Covid. You allowed people to harvest ballots. You allowed big money interference. You allowed the narrative to be crafted around the election instantly and you went with it unquestioningly. You allowed polling places to throw out observers, and you allowed weeks of delayed vote counting until, miraculously, every swing state had just enough votes for Biden to win. You tolerated half-[BLEEP] investigations and didn't even think twice about how quickly the entire media complex just drove right past these issues. 

You cannot trust the powers that be. You just can't. You can't have a transparent and accountable system without scrutiny. You can't have scrutiny without responsible media that works FOR the people. If you believe that's what we have currently, you're a fool. Our media is corrupt to the core. They do what they do for money. The people with money control what is said and not said, not to the tiniest minutia, obviously, but generally, by putting pressure on networks via control of advertising revenue. 

And here's the deal, I have said this since the day of the election: Our job was not to overthrow Biden and put Trump back in the White House because of these shenanigans. Our job was to clamor for a more transparent system, demand a thorough investigation, demand our journalists seek out answers, demand accountability for elected officials and bureaucrats that take it upon themselves change the laws unilaterally, and demand big money gets out of politics. 

Our collective voice matters. It doesn't matter if Trump was cheated or not. Our electoral system is clearly mistrusted by both the right AND the left. It's mistrusted because powerful people are breaking it. They are breaking it for their own greed and self-interest, and you keep running around talking about stupid [BLEEP] like your vote matters. Money matters. You're delusional, complacent, and the reason our system is failing. You're uneducated and lazy, but you're comfortable.

The 2020 election was investigated more than any other election in history.  It was even investigated by people who claimed, prior to their investigation, that there was cheating and they would expose it (see Cyber Ninjas, Arizona).   They failed to find the cheating they claimed they would find.  

I think the reason you think there wasn't a thorough investigation is because the investigators didn't come to the conclusion you wanted, or failed to turn up the evidence you thought they should turn up.

And as for me "taking it up the [BLEEP]," I don't think I am.  So you think somehow the system is [BLEEP] you over?  Why?  What is going on in your life that makes you think the system is putting it up your [BLEEP]?  I'm asking because I am curious as to why a seemingly intelligent person would believe what you believe, about the system conspiring against you.

And I don't think you're wrong about the Cyber Ninjas problem, either. That's a perfectly valid confounder to this problem.

---

Look, dude. Here is what you and the other moderates who can't tolerate discomfort fail to seem to understand.

It takes the collective voice of the people to put pressure on the elites. They need to fear us. Not necessarily in a violent way, but at the very least in our ability to take away their power. This can't happen because too many of you keep taking it up the [BLEEP], because that's just how it is. Our last election was a complete [BLEEP] show. You allowed mail-in voting. They changed years of voting procedure overnight, without proper democratic measures because of Covid. You allowed people to harvest ballots. You allowed big money interference. You allowed the narrative to be crafted around the election instantly and you went with it unquestioningly. You allowed polling places to throw out observers, and you allowed weeks of delayed vote counting until, miraculously, every swing state had just enough votes for Biden to win. You tolerated half-[BLEEP] investigations and didn't even think twice about how quickly the entire media complex just drove right past these issues. 

You cannot trust the powers that be. You just can't. You can't have a transparent and accountable system without scrutiny. You can't have scrutiny without responsible media that works FOR the people. If you believe that's what we have currently, you're a fool. Our media is corrupt to the core. They do what they do for money. The people with money control what is said and not said, not to the tiniest minutia, obviously, but generally, by putting pressure on networks via control of advertising revenue. 

And here's the deal, I have said this since the day of the election: Our job was not to overthrow Biden and put Trump back in the White House because of these shenanigans. Our job was to clamor for a more transparent system, demand a thorough investigation, demand our journalists seek out answers, demand accountability for elected officials and bureaucrats that take it upon themselves change the laws unilaterally, and demand big money gets out of politics. 

Our collective voice matters. It doesn't matter if Trump was cheated or not. Our electoral system is clearly mistrusted by both the right AND the left. It's mistrusted because powerful people are breaking it. They are breaking it for their own greed and self-interest, and you keep running around talking about stupid [BLEEP] like your vote matters. Money matters. You're delusional, complacent, and the reason our system is failing. You're uneducated and lazy, but you're comfortable.

The 2020 election was investigated more than any other election in history.  It was even investigated by people who claimed, prior to their investigation, that there was cheating and they would expose it (see Cyber Ninjas, Arizona).   They failed to find the cheating they claimed they would find.  

I think the reason you think there wasn't a thorough investigation is because the investigators didn't come to the conclusion you wanted, or failed to turn up the evidence you thought they should turn up.

And as for me "taking it up the [BLEEP]," I don't think I am.  So you think somehow the system is [BLEEP] you over?  Why?  What is going on in your life that makes you think the system is putting it up your [BLEEP]?  I'm asking because I am curious as to why a seemingly intelligent person would believe what you believe, about the system conspiring against you.

I'll address this later.

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No. It wasn't. It was widely reported much more than it was widely investigated.

It was actually investigated more than any election in the past ... just not by anyone in government. There are details on every state, county, etc that shows cheating. Very detailed info on voter rolls with every fake person, address, duplicates, etc documented. No one in the government or court system will look at it though.

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Fair point. I am addressing Marty's perception that it was "widely" investigated.

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The 2020 election was investigated more than any other election in history.  It was even investigated by people who claimed, prior to their investigation, that there was cheating and they would expose it (see Cyber Ninjas, Arizona).   They failed to find the cheating they claimed they would find.  

I think the reason you think there wasn't a thorough investigation is because the investigators didn't come to the conclusion you wanted, or failed to turn up the evidence you thought they should turn up.

And as for me "taking it up the [BLEEP]," I don't think I am.  So you think somehow the system is [BLEEP] you over?  Why?  What is going on in your life that makes you think the system is putting it up your [BLEEP]?  I'm asking because I am curious as to why a seemingly intelligent person would believe what you believe, about the system conspiring against you.

I'll address this later.

Ok, let's define system. System is the set of laws, customs, and regulations that we follow that organize our society. It's just a tool we use to govern our behaviors. Sometimes the system is inherently corrupt. However, the founding fathers set up a pretty decent system that can work so long as the people stay vigilant and educated. Modern Americans are neither, which is allowing our system to become corrupted. A few people with real power and money are taking advantage of and even encouraging our moral degeneration and self-indulgence, which will result in the loss of our liberty, independence, and equality under the law. Our "system" is not screwing us. Powerful people are screwing us, because we have forsaken our duties in favor of comfort, allowing our system to become corrupted. You act like every American needs to be living in absolute destitution before we can start pointing out where we are going wrong. That's not how this is supposed to work.

"We the people" have grown comfortable and lazy, so much so that we don't really care so long as our lives don't drastically change. That's you. That's Mikey. I'm even culpable to a lesser degree. I'm at least aware of what's going on. I just don't accept it. We need people like you and Mikey (and NYC to a different degree) to stop buying everything that's put in front of you and question the powers that be. Why are they the powers that be? Do they represent our interests? What are the alternatives? Why aren't there alternatives. Why are you getting lied to all the time. Why can't you do anything about it. Why am I conditioned to dismiss educated individuals as conspiracy theorists when they present good information? Why can't we solve simple problems?

You consume to much of what people tell you to think and not enough of what's actually going on.

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Dude my entire raison de parler here is to introduce alternatives into the system that aren't loyal to our obviously corrupt and inept parties and media platforms.

The only way you will ever get that is ranked choice.
The only way any one of these people will behave better is if there is someone else in the marketplace behaving worse, and the one behaving worse gets punished for it while the one behaving slightly better (more honest, more pragmatic) gets rewarded.

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Yeah, I almost made mention of that. I don't think you're wrong about that (in that it needs to changed... ranked choice isn't it, imo), but you're still not seeing the big picture.

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