Gimme a trade down where we can select a couple players like Ahmad Gardner and Chris Olave over any of the "top" players outside of Thibaodeaux. I just don't see much difference between the top 2-3 guys in this draft (excluding Thibodeaux) and the next 10 players.

What do you have against Stingley?

Durability?

I like Stingley, I just don't see him as elite or even the best CB in this draft. Injuries are a major issue with him. I hate drafting players coming off season ending injuries. If I'm spending a high draft pick on a guy, I need to believe they will be on the field for my team when they are needed. With that said, I just don't see a difference in coverage ability between Stingley and Ahmad Gardner. I'm even very high on Gardner's teammate Coby Bryant, as a possible round 2 selection. When I factor in the injury to Stingley and the equal coverage ability between him and Gardner, I can't justify picking Singley in the top 5. It just doesn't seem like a value and it's just too much of a risk with the injury, especially a foot injury which could effect his speed. There's just too many question marks with Stingley and we cannot miss on another first round pick. I've always advocated for taking "safe" players in rounds 1 and 2 over boom or bust guys. As I said last offseason, I wanted Lawrence over Wilson, because he was the safer choice. I didn't think we'd have a shot at Lawrence, but when we finally did, I was all in. I feel the same way when comparing Stingley and Gardner. IMO, Gardner is the safer selection. At worst, I believe he will be a good NFL cover corner. Maybe not great, but better than anything else we've had since Ramsey as long as he stays healthy. Best case scenario, he is a Ramsey clone, minus the attitude. With Stingley, the best case scenario is the same, but the worst case scenario is that he misses a lot of games due to injury and loses some of the speed he has due to the foot issue. I'm just trying to be practical in my thinking.

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If the Jaguars agree with your assessment, this will make next year's 1st round pick a very difficult choice. As I see it, the current team's greatest needs are:

1. Pass rusher- Chaisson is looking more and more like a bust. Improving the pass rush also greatly helps our secondary. 

2. #1 wide receiver- Even if Chark returns, he has not proven to be a true number 1. Lawrence needs a reliable deep threat to maximize his talent.

3. Offensive line- Taylor has regressed to the point of being a major liability every week. Robinson has played well, but is that just because it's a contract year? Norwell and Cann may both be gone
                         in 2022 due to poor performance (Cann) and free agency (Norwell).

4. Cornerback- This depends on whether Tyson Campbell shows miraculous improvement between now and the end of the season. Since he is a rookie, there is hope BUT he needs to come a 
                      LONG LONG way to earn a starting spot opposite Griffin.


Two of your three elite players (Davis, Hamilton) do not play positions of major need for the Jaguars. Hamilton and Brown have helped improve the run defense significantly and must be considered important parts of the team's future. Jenkins has not been great, but he and Cisco would not be liability at safety. 

Do you agree with this assessment and if the Jaguars have Davis and Hamilton rated slightly higher than Aiden Hutchinson and Evan Neal, who do they select with their pick if Thibodeaux is not on the board?

I do agree, but I would put CB above O-Line as far as team needs. I may even put ILB above O-Line, because even with Norwell and Cann gone, I like Bartch. That leaves one OG position to fill. I'm even toying with the idea of franchising Cam Robinson one more year, because he hasn't been terrible and we just have too many other needs to deal with and this is definitely not a draft class that you want to be looking for a franchise LT. Ideally, we would go after Armstead or Reiff as a replacement in free agency, but I'm not gonna try and fool myself. No good free agent is gonna want to come here with the joke of a coaching staff and front office we have. It's just not gonna happen. I'm hoping we can re-sign Shatley as a backup Center and we still have Linder under contract for one more year. Little has to contribute in 2022. Whether it be LT while possibly moving Cam to RT or vice versa, because Taylor has to go. He's a huge liability. Maybe we could draft a C/OG somewhere in the middle rounds to fill one of the OG spots and then move the rookie to starting Center in 2023. I really like Nick Ford of Utah for this role. I know this is far from ideal, but we have so many major needs on this team, it feels like we are in way worse shape than we were at the end of the 2020 season. 

Ideally, we trade down if we can't get Thibodeaux, but if we can't, I'm still taking the BAP regardless of need and hoping for the best. Right now, the #2 player on my board is Kyle Hamilton. I know he's not a CB, but he is a player in the secondary and should at least help in coverage.

Overall, we're pretty much in agreement. A trade back to a team desperate for a quarterback is definitely in play. It is crazy how teams repeatedly overvalue quarterbacks in the draft and I expect that to be the case again in 2022. Despite the fact that none of the prospects appear to be on the level of Lawrence, Wilson, Jones or Fields, teams like Detroit, Washington and Atlanta will reach for this position. Matt Corral, Malik Willis and Kenny Pickett will be quarterbacks that these desperate teams would be willing to trade up for. Detroit should be picking first and will foolishly pass on someone like Thibodeaux to take their favorite quarterback. That still leaves two other quarterbacks that teams like Washington, Atlanta or even Pittsburgh would be willing to trade up for. If Thibodeaux falls into their laps at pick 2 or 3, they run to the podium and forget a trade. If not, trading with the Redskins would still enable the Jaguars to get a top 10 pick in 2022 plus an additional 2nd rounder (top 10) and another high pick in 2023 (I'd even take a 2nd rounder if they refuse to part with their 1st rounder). The Jaguars could then take their highest rated player in round 1 (ideally a pass rusher like Hutchinson or Karlaftis) and get two very good players in round 2. 

We do disagree about the Jaguars selecting Hamilton if a trade doesn't materialize. As great as he is likely to be, I expect the Jags to start 2022 with Jenkins and Cisco. Jenkins has been o.k. and has a huge contract and Cisco should develop into a very good player once he gets on the field. The importance of adding a very good pass rusher next season cannot be overestimated so I'd prefer they take someone like Hutchinson. This also will immediately make things easier for whoever their 2nd cornerback is (draft choice, free agent or an improved Campbell).

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I do agree, but I would put CB above O-Line as far as team needs. I may even put ILB above O-Line, because even with Norwell and Cann gone, I like Bartch. That leaves one OG position to fill. I'm even toying with the idea of franchising Cam Robinson one more year, because he hasn't been terrible and we just have too many other needs to deal with and this is definitely not a draft class that you want to be looking for a franchise LT. Ideally, we would go after Armstead or Reiff as a replacement in free agency, but I'm not gonna try and fool myself. No good free agent is gonna want to come here with the joke of a coaching staff and front office we have. It's just not gonna happen. I'm hoping we can re-sign Shatley as a backup Center and we still have Linder under contract for one more year. Little has to contribute in 2022. Whether it be LT while possibly moving Cam to RT or vice versa, because Taylor has to go. He's a huge liability. Maybe we could draft a C/OG somewhere in the middle rounds to fill one of the OG spots and then move the rookie to starting Center in 2023. I really like Nick Ford of Utah for this role. I know this is far from ideal, but we have so many major needs on this team, it feels like we are in way worse shape than we were at the end of the 2020 season. 

Ideally, we trade down if we can't get Thibodeaux, but if we can't, I'm still taking the BAP regardless of need and hoping for the best. Right now, the #2 player on my board is Kyle Hamilton. I know he's not a CB, but he is a player in the secondary and should at least help in coverage.

Overall, we're pretty much in agreement. A trade back to a team desperate for a quarterback is definitely in play. It is crazy how teams repeatedly overvalue quarterbacks in the draft and I expect that to be the case again in 2022. Despite the fact that none of the prospects appear to be on the level of Lawrence, Wilson, Jones or Fields, teams like Detroit, Washington and Atlanta will reach for this position. Matt Corral, Malik Willis and Kenny Pickett will be quarterbacks that these desperate teams would be willing to trade up for. Detroit should be picking first and will foolishly pass on someone like Thibodeaux to take their favorite quarterback. That still leaves two other quarterbacks that teams like Washington, Atlanta or even Pittsburgh would be willing to trade up for. If Thibodeaux falls into their laps at pick 2 or 3, they run to the podium and forget a trade. If not, trading with the Redskins would still enable the Jaguars to get a top 10 pick in 2022 plus an additional 2nd rounder (top 10) and another high pick in 2023 (I'd even take a 2nd rounder if they refuse to part with their 1st rounder). The Jaguars could then take their highest rated player in round 1 (ideally a pass rusher like Hutchinson or Karlaftis) and get two very good players in round 2. 

We do disagree about the Jaguars selecting Hamilton if a trade doesn't materialize. As great as he is likely to be, I expect the Jags to start 2022 with Jenkins and Cisco. Jenkins has been o.k. and has a huge contract and Cisco should develop into a very good player once he gets on the field. The importance of adding a very good pass rusher next season cannot be overestimated so I'd prefer they take someone like Hutchinson. This also will immediately make things easier for whoever their 2nd cornerback is (draft choice, free agent or an improved Campbell).

I don't think they will. Detroit is in desperate need of a pass rush and they could get a QB of equal value like Carson Strong or Sam Howell, possibly in round 2. Thibodeaux is an elite player and is light years ahead of any player in this draft. Even Detroit should be able to see that. 

I just don't see Hutchinson as an elite player.

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Overall, we're pretty much in agreement. A trade back to a team desperate for a quarterback is definitely in play. It is crazy how teams repeatedly overvalue quarterbacks in the draft and I expect that to be the case again in 2022. Despite the fact that none of the prospects appear to be on the level of Lawrence, Wilson, Jones or Fields, teams like Detroit, Washington and Atlanta will reach for this position. Matt Corral, Malik Willis and Kenny Pickett will be quarterbacks that these desperate teams would be willing to trade up for. Detroit should be picking first and will foolishly pass on someone like Thibodeaux to take their favorite quarterback. That still leaves two other quarterbacks that teams like Washington, Atlanta or even Pittsburgh would be willing to trade up for. If Thibodeaux falls into their laps at pick 2 or 3, they run to the podium and forget a trade. If not, trading with the Redskins would still enable the Jaguars to get a top 10 pick in 2022 plus an additional 2nd rounder (top 10) and another high pick in 2023 (I'd even take a 2nd rounder if they refuse to part with their 1st rounder). The Jaguars could then take their highest rated player in round 1 (ideally a pass rusher like Hutchinson or Karlaftis) and get two very good players in round 2. 

We do disagree about the Jaguars selecting Hamilton if a trade doesn't materialize. As great as he is likely to be, I expect the Jags to start 2022 with Jenkins and Cisco. Jenkins has been o.k. and has a huge contract and Cisco should develop into a very good player once he gets on the field. The importance of adding a very good pass rusher next season cannot be overestimated so I'd prefer they take someone like Hutchinson. This also will immediately make things easier for whoever their 2nd cornerback is (draft choice, free agent or an improved Campbell).

I don't think they will. Detroit is in desperate need of a pass rush and they could get a QB of equal value like Carson Strong or Sam Howell, possibly in round 2. Thibodeaux is an elite player and is light years ahead of any player in this draft. Even Detroit should be able to see that. 

I just don't see Hutchinson as an elite player.

Hutchinson may never be elite but I bet he plays a long time in the NFL. Kinda like Justin Smith for the Bengals/49ers or Kerrigan.

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I don't think they will. Detroit is in desperate need of a pass rush and they could get a QB of equal value like Carson Strong or Sam Howell, possibly in round 2. Thibodeaux is an elite player and is light years ahead of any player in this draft. Even Detroit should be able to see that. 

I just don't see Hutchinson as an elite player.

Hutchinson may never be elite but I bet he plays a long time in the NFL. Kinda like Justin Smith for the Bengals/49ers or Kerrigan.

Justin Smith was a beast.

I'd be glad to have a guy like him on the d line.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Hutchinson may never be elite but I bet he plays a long time in the NFL. Kinda like Justin Smith for the Bengals/49ers or Kerrigan.

Smith was more of an early big end or a 3-4 DE. I think Kerrigan is a decent comp. Height/weight wise he is basically a Jared Allen clone, which would obviously be even better.

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Hutchinson may never be elite but I bet he plays a long time in the NFL. Kinda like Justin Smith for the Bengals/49ers or Kerrigan.

Smith was more of an early big end or a 3-4 DE. I think Kerrigan is a decent comp. Height/weight wise he is basically a Jared Allen clone, which would obviously be even better.

Lol, reminds me of Chris Long or maybe even Aaron Kampman

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Smith was more of an early big end or a 3-4 DE. I think Kerrigan is a decent comp. Height/weight wise he is basically a Jared Allen clone, which would obviously be even better.

Lol, reminds me of Chris Long or maybe even Aaron Kampman

This is a perfect comparison for Hutchinson, imo.

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Lol, reminds me of Chris Long or maybe even Aaron Kampman

This is a perfect comparison for Hutchinson, imo.

Kampman had 37 sacks between 2006-08- his prime years. I'd take that in a heartbeat from Hutchinson.

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This is a perfect comparison for Hutchinson, imo.

Kampman had 37 sacks between 2006-08- his prime years. I'd take that in a heartbeat from Hutchinson.

He was a budding star prior to ACL tear iirc

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Lol, reminds me of Chris Long or maybe even Aaron Kampman

This is a perfect comparison for Hutchinson, imo.

Lol, I was just naming the white DE's like they did. But it is a close comparison

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I've seen Neal almost every week this season, since Alabama is always on TV and they are fun to watch. Neal is highly overrated. He lunges and grabs and when he lunges, he tends to get off balance. That kind of technique just isn't gonna cut it in the NFL. He's just the best in a very, very bad OT class.

I will take your word that Neal does all of that stuff, I have been able to watch less college football than ever this year unfortunately...especially with my scouting hat on.

That said, what you describe is basically exactly what Wirfs was like, and why I was lower than him throughout the year than others (fortunately that changed after the combine and I was sky high on him). Usually when you see someone lunge and overstep it is because they are trying to overcome athletic insufficiencies, just look at Cam Robinson for example #1. However, we have seen Neal show absurd explosion with those box jumps and while long speed isn't as important for lineman he has clocked over 18 MPH a lot of times with the chips which is crazy for a guy his size obviously. We'll see with the all important SS and 3 cones, but it seems to me like he is the freak athlete that can have his technique cleaned up and become a plug and play pro bowler right away.

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This is a perfect comparison for Hutchinson, imo.

Kampman had 37 sacks between 2006-08- his prime years. I'd take that in a heartbeat from Hutchinson.

Hutchinson is a good player, it's just that like Kampman, I don't think he's elite. Would you take Hutchinson because he fills a need, believing he may be another Aaron Kampman or would you take Kyle Hamilton who plays at a position where we don't have a great need, believing he could be another Troy Polamalu? Personally, I'm taking the BAP and that would be Hamilton. I'll take the better player over the need position.

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I've seen Neal almost every week this season, since Alabama is always on TV and they are fun to watch. Neal is highly overrated. He lunges and grabs and when he lunges, he tends to get off balance. That kind of technique just isn't gonna cut it in the NFL. He's just the best in a very, very bad OT class.

I will take your word that Neal does all of that stuff, I have been able to watch less college football than ever this year unfortunately...especially with my scouting hat on.

That said, what you describe is basically exactly what Wirfs was like, and why I was lower than him throughout the year than others (fortunately that changed after the combine and I was sky high on him). Usually when you see someone lunge and overstep it is because they are trying to overcome athletic insufficiencies, just look at Cam Robinson for example #1. However, we have seen Neal show absurd explosion with those box jumps and while long speed isn't as important for lineman he has clocked over 18 MPH a lot of times with the chips which is crazy for a guy his size obviously. We'll see with the all important SS and 3 cones, but it seems to me like he is the freak athlete that can have his technique cleaned up and become a plug and play pro bowler right away.

Exactly. Cam has never overcome his insufficiencies. If I'm taking a player in the top 5, I want a finished product. I'm certainly not gonna expect George Warhop to coach him up. That would never happen.

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Exactly. Cam has never overcome his insufficiencies. If I'm taking a player in the top 5, I want a finished product. I'm certainly not gonna expect George Warhop to coach him up. That would never happen.

You wouldn't have taken Wirfs top 5?

Cam hasn't overcome them because he is a lead footed bad athlete. Wirfs did easily because he is a giant that glides on air. Neal has shown some of the latter with his top shelf box jumps and sprint speeds. If he checks the SS and 3 cone boxes I see no reason to suspect he won't be a Wirfsesque dude who overcomes his technical issues easily and becomes a monster.

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Exactly. Cam has never overcome his insufficiencies. If I'm taking a player in the top 5, I want a finished product. I'm certainly not gonna expect George Warhop to coach him up. That would never happen.

You wouldn't have taken Wirfs top 5?

Cam hasn't overcome them because he is a lead footed bad athlete. Wirfs did easily because he is a giant that glides on air. Neal has shown some of the latter with his top shelf box jumps and sprint speeds. If he checks the SS and 3 cone boxes I see no reason to suspect he won't be a Wirfsesque dude who overcomes his technical issues easily and becomes a monster.

I was a HUGE proponent of drafting Wirfs, but I didn't see any major deficiencies in him. I thought he was a pretty finished product coming out of college and he was without question, the BAP when we picked at #9 that year. Unfortunately, we had a GM that tanked that first round. 

Do you honestly believe Warhop could develop him? I don't believe Warhop has developed an OT in his entire career.

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Wirfs had a huge overset problem. That allowed him to get beat on inside counters and put him off balance for bull rushes fairly often. He wasn't a finished product. And his issue was fixed instantly.

Like I said I haven't watched Neal more than just casually watching a bunch of Alabama games, but I didn't notice him being a big problem. I would guess he has the same kind of minor technical issues but nothing critical. If he proves to be the athlete that it appears he is then I think he will require merely a tweak or two and not "development". But I'll dig in deeper later and follow up, maybe he is that raw.

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You wouldn't have taken Wirfs top 5?

Cam hasn't overcome them because he is a lead footed bad athlete. Wirfs did easily because he is a giant that glides on air. Neal has shown some of the latter with his top shelf box jumps and sprint speeds. If he checks the SS and 3 cone boxes I see no reason to suspect he won't be a Wirfsesque dude who overcomes his technical issues easily and becomes a monster.

I was a HUGE proponent of drafting Wirfs, but I didn't see any major deficiencies in him. I thought he was a pretty finished product coming out of college and he was without question, the BAP when we picked at #9 that year. Unfortunately, we had a GM that tanked that first round. 

Do you honestly believe Warhop could develop him? I don't believe Warhop has developed an OT in his entire career.

Finished product?  I wanted Wirfs as well, as did alot on this board but one thing you never want to draft is a guy who you feel like is a finish product

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Wirfs had a huge overset problem. That allowed him to get beat on inside counters and put him off balance for bull rushes fairly often. He wasn't a finished product. And his issue was fixed instantly.

Like I said I haven't watched Neal more than just casually watching a bunch of Alabama games, but I didn't notice him being a big problem. I would guess he has the same kind of minor technical issues but nothing critical. If he proves to be the athlete that it appears he is then I think he will require merely a tweak or two and not "development". But I'll dig in deeper later and follow up, maybe he is that raw.

Wirfs was an All-American his final season at Iowa and only allowed 2 QB hits and 3 hurries that year and he had the best pressure rate percentage in the entire draft class. It couldn't have been too much of a problem.

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I was a HUGE proponent of drafting Wirfs, but I didn't see any major deficiencies in him. I thought he was a pretty finished product coming out of college and he was without question, the BAP when we picked at #9 that year. Unfortunately, we had a GM that tanked that first round. 

Do you honestly believe Warhop could develop him? I don't believe Warhop has developed an OT in his entire career.

Finished product?  I wanted Wirfs as well, as did alot on this board but one thing you never want to draft is a guy who you feel like is a finish product

I disagree. If you see an elite prospect in college and he shows everything you want to see in a prospect with no clear flaws, he is a finished product. Why wouldn't you want that? I certainly don't want an O-Lineman with noticeable flaws that need to be coached away, because our O-Line coach is the worst in the NFL. He's never developed an O-Lineman as far as I could tell.

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Kampman had 37 sacks between 2006-08- his prime years. I'd take that in a heartbeat from Hutchinson.

Hutchinson is a good player, it's just that like Kampman, I don't think he's elite. Would you take Hutchinson because he fills a need, believing he may be another Aaron Kampman or would you take Kyle Hamilton who plays at a position where we don't have a great need, believing he could be another Troy Polamalu? Personally, I'm taking the BAP and that would be Hamilton. I'll take the better player over the need position.

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I will take your word that Neal does all of that stuff, I have been able to watch less college football than ever this year unfortunately...especially with my scouting hat on.

That said, what you describe is basically exactly what Wirfs was like, and why I was lower than him throughout the year than others (fortunately that changed after the combine and I was sky high on him). Usually when you see someone lunge and overstep it is because they are trying to overcome athletic insufficiencies, just look at Cam Robinson for example #1. However, we have seen Neal show absurd explosion with those box jumps and while long speed isn't as important for lineman he has clocked over 18 MPH a lot of times with the chips which is crazy for a guy his size obviously. We'll see with the all important SS and 3 cones, but it seems to me like he is the freak athlete that can have his technique cleaned up and become a plug and play pro bowler right away.

Exactly. Cam has never overcome his insufficiencies. If I'm taking a player in the top 5, I want a finished product. I'm certainly not gonna expect George Warhop to coach him up. That would never happen.

So Trevor was a finished prospect? Not based on his first couple of NFL games. LOL Just yanking your chain a little. But I get your point.  While every draft pick truly is a risk, some are lees so than others, like Trevor. Wirfs would have been a good pick at our place in the draft that year. Certainly better than what Cam has proven to be and wayyy better than Taylor, but both of them were second rounders. This reiterates the need for hitting on the big uglies and not missing on them. Are all the great/ really good OTs first rounders? No but with our track record, even first round picking is often suspect.  Oh and I absolutely agree that Warhop isn't a great O-line coach. Prolly not even a good one. Average at a dubious best. This then is my mantra the rest of the season, O-line is our biggest need next year ( and a new oline coach too). After that is WR#1. Then defense at every level, especially ILB

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Hutchinson is a good player, it's just that like Kampman, I don't think he's elite. Would you take Hutchinson because he fills a need, believing he may be another Aaron Kampman or would you take Kyle Hamilton who plays at a position where we don't have a great need, believing he could be another Troy Polamalu? Personally, I'm taking the BAP and that would be Hamilton. I'll take the better player over the need position.

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Exactly. Cam has never overcome his insufficiencies. If I'm taking a player in the top 5, I want a finished product. I'm certainly not gonna expect George Warhop to coach him up. That would never happen.

So Trevor was a finished prospect? Not based on his first couple of NFL games. LOL Just yanking your chain a little. But I get your point.  While every draft pick truly is a risk, some are lees so than others, like Trevor. Wirfs would have been a good pick at our place in the draft that year. Certainly better than what Cam has proven to be and wayyy better than Taylor, but both of them were second rounders. This reiterates the need for hitting on the big uglies and not missing on them. Are all the great/ really good OTs first rounders? No but with our track record, even first round picking is often suspect.  Oh and I absolutely agree that Warhop isn't a great O-line coach. Prolly not even a good one. Average at a dubious best. This then is my mantra the rest of the season, O-line is our biggest need next year ( and a new oline coach too). After that is WR#1. Then defense at every level, especially ILB

Unless Meyer goes (which I highly doubt,) I don't see Warhop going anywhere. In fact, I don't see much change coming to the O-Line either. I believe Cam will either sign a new deal with us or be franchised again with Little and Taylor fighting it out for the other starting OT spot. Bartch should fill one of the starting OG spots, Linder should play out the final year of his deal and that would leave only one starting OG position to fill in the draft. It isn't what I want, it's just what I think is coming.

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