Sorry but if the Caldwell era, which has had the most elite draft capital ever and by a huge amount the most FA $ spent in history, peaks out with one or two quick exit playoff appearances it will be a disappointment to me. Everyone in the fanbase deserves more than that with what we've been through.

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Big Ben is a top ~10 all time QB also, so I'm not sure using either team with an elite QB is fair. The Texans/Bengals/Garrard era Jags is still the right comp for what we are trying to do IMO.

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I'm also not dissing people who are/would be content with short playoff runs, that's completely understandable considering how hard the last half decade has been. It's just not how I feel personally.

I don't mean to completely derail this conversation, but....

Ben Roethlisberger, a top ten all-time QB? Don't get me wrong, he's better than a lot of them, but top-10?

In no particular order...

Montana
Kelley
Marino
Elway
Unitas
Manning
Brady
Bradshaw
Tarkenton
Young
Graham
Favre
Brees
Staubach
Aikman
Namath
Starr

So.... Which EIGHT of those guys are worse than Big Ben?

Again, sorry for the derailment, but sometimes some things need to be addressed quickly.

Roethlisberger is a good quarterback that's played mediocre playoffs football that will be remembered as great because of two titles, but clearly he's not on the actual level of all time great.

The guy lost a playoff game to Tebow.

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Sorry but if the Caldwell era, which has had the most elite draft capital ever and by a huge amount the most FA $ spent in history, peaks out with one or two quick exit playoff appearances it will be a disappointment to me. Everyone in the fanbase deserves more than that with what we've been through.

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Big Ben is a top ~10 all time QB also, so I'm not sure using either team with an elite QB is fair. The Texans/Bengals/Garrard era Jags is still the right comp for what we are trying to do IMO.

---

I'm also not dissing people who are/would be content with short playoff runs, that's completely understandable considering how hard the last half decade has been. It's just not how I feel personally.

I don't mean to completely derail this conversation, but....

Ben Roethlisberger, a top ten all-time QB? Don't get me wrong, he's better than a lot of them, but top-10?

In no particular order...

Montana
Kelley
Marino
Elway
Unitas
Manning
Brady
Bradshaw
Tarkenton
Young
Graham
Favre
Brees
Staubach
Aikman
Namath
Starr

So.... Which EIGHT of those guys are worse than Big Ben?

Again, sorry for the derailment, but sometimes some things need to be addressed quickly.

If you are basing it on Super bowl appearances/rings, Big Ben has more...

rings and appearances than Marino, Favre, Brees, and Namath.

rings but not appearances than Kelly, Tarkenton (Young not listed here because he has three rings-but one as a starter)

Of course, Super Bowls alone are not a good measure of a player.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Sorry but if the Caldwell era, which has had the most elite draft capital ever and by a huge amount the most FA $ spent in history, peaks out with one or two quick exit playoff appearances it will be a disappointment to me. Everyone in the fanbase deserves more than that with what we've been through.

---

Big Ben is a top ~10 all time QB also, so I'm not sure using either team with an elite QB is fair. The Texans/Bengals/Garrard era Jags is still the right comp for what we are trying to do IMO.

---

I'm also not dissing people who are/would be content with short playoff runs, that's completely understandable considering how hard the last half decade has been. It's just not how I feel personally.

I don't mean to completely derail this conversation, but....

Ben Roethlisberger, a top ten all-time QB? Don't get me wrong, he's better than a lot of them, but top-10?

In no particular order...

Montana
Kelley
Marino
Elway
Unitas
Manning
Brady
Bradshaw
Tarkenton
Young
Graham
Favre
Brees
Staubach
Aikman
Namath
Starr

So.... Which EIGHT of those guys are worse than Big Ben?

Again, sorry for the derailment, but sometimes some things need to be addressed quickly.

Big Ben is better than Troy Aikman was.

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I


Big Ben is better than Troy Aikman was.

Based on what?

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Sorry but if the Caldwell era, which has had the most elite draft capital ever and by a huge amount the most FA $ spent in history, peaks out with one or two quick exit playoff appearances it will be a disappointment to me. Everyone in the fanbase deserves more than that with what we've been through.

---

Big Ben is a top ~10 all time QB also, so I'm not sure using either team with an elite QB is fair. The Texans/Bengals/Garrard era Jags is still the right comp for what we are trying to do IMO.

---

I'm also not dissing people who are/would be content with short playoff runs, that's completely understandable considering how hard the last half decade has been. It's just not how I feel personally.

Define "short playoff run."

Yeah, mostly one and done. Maybe a scenario happens like where both of the Texans and Bengals played each other in the first round, so perhaps a 2nd round if we're lucky...but never where there is a real threat of a championship.

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If you are basing it on Super bowl appearances/rings, Big Ben has more...

rings and appearances than Marino, Favre, Brees, and Namath.

rings but not appearances than Kelly, Tarkenton (Young not listed here because he has three rings-but one as a starter)

Of course, Super Bowls alone are not a good measure of a player.

And on top of all of the Super Bowl stuff, he is top 10 in yards, TD, comp %, yards per attempt, passer rating. He has it all.

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If Marrone's philosophy ended at being overtly structured and disciplined that would be great. The comments about the passing attempts going down, hopefully to zero even, are scary even if said tongue in cheek.

I think we are embarking on a mission to become an MJD/Garrard or more recently Texans/Bengalsesque team where we hope to run/defend our way into enough wins to squeak into the playoffs and then get walloped by a legitimate Super Bowl contender with a franchise QB.

I don't have a problem with him wanting to put a strong emphasis on the running game, so his comment didn't bother me one bit. It was tongue in cheek, but only slightly.

If this shift to get away from throwing the ball 50 times a game reduces turnovers and improves the offense producing more wins, he can run the ball as much as he wants.

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

I don't have a problem with him wanting to put a strong emphasis on the running game, so his comment didn't bother me one bit.  It was tongue in cheek, but only slightly.  

If this shift to get away from throwing the ball 50 times a game reduces turnovers and improves the offense producing more wins, he can run the ball as much as he wants.

I do agree that it will produce more wins, but I don't think it will get us close to being legitimate super bowl contenders as I've said. I think we're going to toil in 7 to 9 win territory for a while.

But as I've also said, it's understandable if purgatory doesn't sound that bad when you're used to the hell we've been in the past half decade.

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Some of you overrated Namath by a WIDE margin. His career stats are actually really bad. 50% career completion percentage, 170 TDs to 220 ints and only 27,000 passing yards. Yea.... He shouldn't be in the HOF. I'd absolutely take Ben over him.

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I do agree that it will produce more wins, but I don't think it will get us close to being legitimate super bowl contenders as I've said. I think we're going to toil in 7 to 9 win territory for a while.

If that happens - it's likely much more to do with the quarterback than the coaching. 

I think you're jumping the shark on being overly concerned about the Marrone/Hackett offensive philosophy. 
They are definitely going to attempt to mitigate Blake's mistakes. They have to. His performance has dictated that. But that doesn't mean they can't or won't have plenty of games with 25-30 passing attempts and potentially ~ 225-250 yards passing from those attempts.

That type of passing attack still leaves room for 35 rushing attempts if they have a decent share of clock control. I think they are aiming for balance and a lighter load for Blake. I don't think they aim to neuter the offense's ability beat the better teams as you suggest. I'm reminded of a number of wins (regular and postseason) that the Seahawks doled out from 2012-2015. 
Many of those wins came with well under 300 yds passing and +170 yards rushing. I think this is more of what Marrone and Hackett are designing from a "balance" perspective for this offense. 

I'm not salivating over going .500 and missing the playoffs, and I'm sure Marrone isn't either.

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I don't have a problem with him wanting to put a strong emphasis on the running game, so his comment didn't bother me one bit.  It was tongue in cheek, but only slightly.  

If this shift to get away from throwing the ball 50 times a game reduces turnovers and improves the offense producing more wins, he can run the ball as much as he wants.

I do agree that it will produce more wins, but I don't think it will get us close to being legitimate super bowl contenders as I've said. I think we're going to toil in 7 to 9 win territory for a while.

But as I've also said, it's understandable if purgatory doesn't sound that bad when you're used to the hell we've been in the past half decade.

You can't honestly believe he's going to run the ball 90% of the time or more.  Neither he nor his OC are stuck in the leather helmet era of football.  I think that when the dust settles, we're going to see real balance offensively, which limits the potential for mistakes by Blake while still allowing the offense to stretch the field using play action.  His attempts may go down, but the production could easily go up in the passing game.  In the end, it all falls on Blake to take that next step.

---

Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

I don't mean to completely derail this conversation, but....

Ben Roethlisberger, a top ten all-time QB? Don't get me wrong, he's better than a lot of them, but top-10?

In no particular order...

Montana
Kelley
Marino
Elway
Unitas
Manning
Brady
Bradshaw
Tarkenton
Young
Graham
Favre
Brees
Staubach
Aikman
Namath
Starr

So.... Which EIGHT of those guys are worse than Big Ben?

Again, sorry for the derailment, but sometimes some things need to be addressed quickly.

Big Ben is better than Troy Aikman was.

Actually that's a real good comparison. I know they were entirely different qbs, but on the all-time rankings, I think you have both Aikman and Big Ben right around #15. It's tough to say which QB in their prime is better.

I look at Big Ben and say he's borderline elite among today's QBs. He's a guy that virtually every year will sneak into right about that #5 spot. Stacked up against Aikman though... tough one... I'm going to give the edge to Aikman.

As this relates to Bortles, I see his ceiling as being Big Ben 2.0 provided the brain fart plays go away and he keeps his arm healthy.

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'02

Define "short playoff run."

Yeah, mostly one and done. Maybe a scenario happens like where both of the Texans and Bengals played each other in the first round, so perhaps a 2nd round if we're lucky...but never where there is a real threat of a championship.

Tom Brady and the Patriots are the reason not many teams in the AFC are a threat.  But like someone posted earlier, they are an anomaly, and with Brady being 40 and on the outs, you'll see more teams being competitive in my opinion.  Teams like the Texans and Bengals stand no chance against the Pats, but they can beat a team like the Steelers, or Broncos.  Speaking of the Broncos, they did win a super bowl a couple of years ago with mainly defense and running game.  Manning was hot garbage that season, including the super bowl.

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You can't honestly believe he's going to run the ball 90% of the time or more.  Neither he nor his OC are stuck in the leather helmet era of football.  I think that when the dust settles, we're going to see real balance offensively, which limits the potential for mistakes by Blake while still allowing the offense to stretch the field using play action.  His attempts may go down, but the production could easily go up in the passing game.  In the end, it all falls on Blake to take that next step.

I guess it's easier to feel than explain and convey. I am saying I think we are on our way to being a purgatory team. Purgatory teams throw the football also. Dalton has averaged 33 attempts and I think it was 238 yards a game, clearly he throws plenty. Schaub attempted over 550 passes in his healthy and surprisingly solid purgatory years, no one would say that isn't a healthy number. Alex Smith and Bradford are similar. Teams that build the way the Jags are trying to build tend to get those types of QBs that are fine for what their team wants them to be, but never seriously threaten the real championship contenders. I believe that's the type of QB Marrone and Coughlin will want to try to execute their run/defense philosophy once the Blake ship sails. 

It's like Eric says, QBs are either the trucks or trailers of the team. I think Marrone and Couglin want Blake or whoever the next QB is to be a trailer, but the trucks win the super bowls.

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You can't honestly believe he's going to run the ball 90% of the time or more.  Neither he nor his OC are stuck in the leather helmet era of football.  I think that when the dust settles, we're going to see real balance offensively, which limits the potential for mistakes by Blake while still allowing the offense to stretch the field using play action.  His attempts may go down, but the production could easily go up in the passing game.  In the end, it all falls on Blake to take that next step.

I guess it's easier to feel than explain and convey. I am saying I think we are on our way to being a purgatory team. Purgatory teams throw the football also. Dalton has averaged 33 attempts and I think it was 238 yards a game, clearly he throws plenty. Schaub attempted over 550 passes in his healthy and surprisingly solid purgatory years, no one would say that isn't a healthy number. Alex Smith and Bradford are similar. Teams that build the way the Jags are trying to build tend to get those types of QBs that are fine for what their team wants them to be, but never seriously threaten the real championship contenders. I believe that's the type of QB Marrone and Coughlin will want to try to execute their run/defense philosophy once the Blake ship sails. 

It's like Eric says, QBs are either the trucks or trailers of the team. I think Marrone and Couglin want Blake or whoever the next QB is to be a trailer, but the trucks win the super bowls.

Are you trying to say you believe the team would turn their noses up at an elite QB because they want a ball control offense?

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I'm a die-hard fan of this team.. So I have no choice but to be all in for Marrone..

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I guess it's easier to feel than explain and convey. I am saying I think we are on our way to being a purgatory team. Purgatory teams throw the football also. Dalton has averaged 33 attempts and I think it was 238 yards a game, clearly he throws plenty. Schaub attempted over 550 passes in his healthy and surprisingly solid purgatory years, no one would say that isn't a healthy number. Alex Smith and Bradford are similar. Teams that build the way the Jags are trying to build tend to get those types of QBs that are fine for what their team wants them to be, but never seriously threaten the real championship contenders. I believe that's the type of QB Marrone and Coughlin will want to try to execute their run/defense philosophy once the Blake ship sails. 

It's like Eric says, QBs are either the trucks or trailers of the team. I think Marrone and Couglin want Blake or whoever the next QB is to be a trailer, but the trucks win the super bowls.

Are you trying to say you believe the team would turn their noses up at an elite QB because they want a ball control offense?

Clearly Marrone WANTS average. He can "feel" it.

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Best way to win a championship if you don't have a HOF QB is with an elite defense and run game

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Define "short playoff run."

Yeah, mostly one and done. Maybe a scenario happens like where both of the Texans and Bengals played each other in the first round, so perhaps a 2nd round if we're lucky...but never where there is a real threat of a championship.

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Based upon all that has been presented, I understand your point, but disagree with the presumption that ether a run heavy or a team without a great passing game is doomed to have a "short playoff run.

Recent history has shown any number of teams that have transcended the "short playoff run".

Starting in 1999, the Tacks made the Super Bowl, and they were a conservative team.
In 2000, the Ravens had Trent freaking Dilfer at QB, a run based offense, and a strong defense, and they won the Super Bowl. 2001 saw a run heavy Steelers team make the AFC title game.

2002 saw Tampa, with Brad Johnson at the helm, win the Super Bowl. The next year, Carolina with Jake Delhomme under C made the Super Bowl. In 2004, the Steelers were a run heavy team under rookie Ben Roethlisberger, as they had home field advantage in the AFC title game. 2006 saw the Bears somehow make it to the Super Bowl with Rex Grossman. Th Coughlin led Giants arguably did not have a dominant passing game when they won the Super Bowl over the less balanced Patriots in 2007 and 2011. In 2008, the Ravens-while not as bad passing as they were in 2000, reached the AFC championship, and won it all in 2012, beating the run heavy 49ers team. The Seahawks of recent vintage were not considered great passing offenses, and they went to back to back Super Bowls. Finlly, as KCirred pointed out, Denver recently won the Super Bowl without having anything close to a legit passing game.

Does having a great QB make extended playoff runs more likely than not having one? Yes, assuming most of everything else is in place. But run heavy/conservative teams have had plenty of extended playoff runs over the last 20 or so years.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

1 and done. That's short, usually a wildcard one off. That is a short playoff run. A "long" or "deep" playoff run is winning a couple games, getting to the conference title game or a super bowl appearance. I know we haven't been to the playoffs in a while, so these things can be confusing. Some of us older fans were there when we were good, So I am glad I could clear this up for you.

Let's provide some additional clarification.

1.  I am a STH since 1995, and a pro football fan since 1977.  I have games on DVD dating back to Super Bowl III.  If you endeavor to condescend, at least endeavor to have a clue about your audience.

2.  The term "short playoff run" was vague, as it could have meant within the context of one season, or over the course of several seasons.  If a team made the playoffs seven straight years but was bounced from the playoffs early each time, does that constitute a "short playoff run" or something other than a short playoff run?  If a team goes to the conference championship game or Super Bowl one year and is not heard from again in subsequent postseasons, does that constitute a short playoff run or a long playoff run?  The distinction has an impact on the analysis.

Thee have been plenty of run dominant teams that have been to the playoffs over a sustained period, who may or may not have had great QBs (See Baltimore Ravens 2001 through 2011 who made the playoffs seven out of eleven seasons, making the conference title game only twice during that span)  Meanwhile the Manning era Colts had a run over seven years between 1999-2005, making the playoffs six of them, and reaching the conference championship only once.  Did they not have sustained success?

Assume for argument's sake Marrone leads the Jaguars to the AFC championship game this year, then the team reverts to Bradley-esque performances the next four seasons.  When it came to renewing his contract, would many Jaguars fans be happy with that?  Would you be in favor of renewing his contract under those circumstances?  Why or why not?

So Jack Del-Rio?

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If Marrone's philosophy ended at being overtly structured and disciplined that would be great. The comments about the passing attempts going down, hopefully to zero even, are scary even if said tongue in cheek.

I think we are embarking on a mission to become an MJD/Garrard or more recently Texans/Bengalsesque team where we hope to run/defend our way into enough wins to squeak into the playoffs and then get walloped by a legitimate Super Bowl contender with a franchise QB.

Unless you have a franchise QB, there's no other course to take. Trying to act like we have a franchise QB, when we don't have one, trying to build the team around Blake Bortles, so far has been an abysmal failure.

I like the approach Dallas took. They built the rest of the team to the point where they could put a rookie QB in there and he would have a really easy time because he didn't have to carry the team.

Building our running game and our defense is a tremendous approach because if Blake fails this year, and we draft a new QB next year, the guy won't have to carry the team.

And besides, it sounds like you think building the defense and the running game means we can't keep trying to get a franchise QB. These are not mutually exclusive tasks.

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