[quote pid='1116356' dateline='1522368292']
jaguarmvpWhat are you arguing?  I already said Caldwell has the eye for talent and I give him credit for buidling most of the roster.  That being said, acquiring the talent is only part of building an organization. 

To me if Dave was the Top Dog before Coughlin and now Coughlin is the top dog that means Dave got demoted. 

I guess you forget under Dave and Gus it was like a college Dorm in the Jags locker room.  Ping pong, videogames, ice cream parties, you name it was going on. 

Tom came in here and instantly changed this culture. Tom came in cleaned house and put this franchise on the right track.  Dave Caldwell has not proven he can do the same.

Wrong. Marrone changed that Bobblehead Baskin Robbins crap the first week he was interim head coach, and the result on the field was immediate. December, 2016, weeks before TC was hired. You absolutely couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

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Agreed.

Thing is, he didn't even implement all the stuff he wanted to during that time, but the changes he made to the culture while he was interim coach paid immediate dividends.  The two games he was head coach at the end of 2016 were the best two game stretch in terms of quality of football(even though they lost that Colts game) this team had seen in years.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Caldwell needs to thank Jerry Jones. Drafting Elliott over Ramsey and The other injured LB in Jaylon Smith over Myles Jack. Two cornerstones that should be Cowboys.

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Caldwell needs to thank Jerry Jones. Drafting Elliott over Ramsey and The other injured LB in Jaylon Smith over Myles Jack. Two cornerstones that should be Cowboys.

Yep.

Sometimes luck helps.

It sure helped Caldwell and the Jaguars in 2016.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

I fully disagree with this.
TC barely had any time to really put his stamp on things. Marrone and the coaching staff developed the guys that Caldwell brought in from 2014-2016. Most of our key players were guys Caldwell drafted or signed prior to TC showing up.

You can hate on Caldwell if you want... but to give all blame to him and all credit to Tom is asinine.

Disagree all you want but the facts are the facts.  When Tom was brought in as Vice President of operations he said himself he has final say on the roster and the coaches. Marrone is also a decent head coach and do believe he deserves credit. 

I gave Dave Credit but being a good Scout and running a team is 2 totally different things.   Does Dave Caldwell have an eye for talent?  Yes he does. 

Has Dave proven he can build a winning organization?  He HAS NOT.   It was his decisions to strip this team in 2013 while cutting some decent players who went on to have decent careers.  12 wins in 4 years is just flat out disgraceful.  The team was a laughing stock of the league under Dave Caldwell's leadership.

You aren't stating facts, you're stating opinions. Learn the English language before you use it.

You don't think he sold the idea of stripping the team down to Khan?
They even told fans at the very go it was gonna be rough.
I'd say Caldwell's plan was executed perfectly. Tear down roster, draft his guys, sign his guys.
Just because Tom Coughlin has final say doesn't mean he has first word. You don't know whose idea it was to draft player A or pursue player B. Dave could bring it up and Tom could give the thumbs up.
Perhaps Tom Coughlin was in Dave's ear and forcing his hand on selecting a RB at 4 overall (a move many of us, even after a great rookie campaign, don't quite agree with)

Coughlin isn't some magical fixer. You are so delusional you've become a meme of yourself for us all to laugh at on the board.

Coughlin in a matter of 6 months or so did sooooo much good (except... ya know, he didn't draft Jalen, ARobinson, Lee, Bortles, Linder, Jack, Smith... didn't have anything to do with signing Malik or Gipson, and honestly, with or without Coughlin we probably still land Calais and AJ because we had the money to make those splashes because of the work Caldwell did YEARS before Coughlin was ever getting kicked to the curb by the G-Men)

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How can ANYONE blame the first season or two on Caldwell?

Even if he hired a better coach than Bradley, no coach could have won those first 2-3 seasons with the talent on the roster during that time.

ANY GM faced with such a talent depleted roster would need more than one offseason to fix it, especially considering the disaster that was the 2013 draft.

As for TC, he did three key things since serving in his current capacity:

1.  He provided credibility to the FO.  While Caldwell had done a pretty good job drafting talent, he didn't have the results to back him up.  When TC came aboard, he had the reputation that gave the franchise credibility with vets like Campbell.

2.  He placed greater emphasis on special teams.  Caldwell, by his own admission, did not emphasize this part of the game enough.  Before TC got here, Special teams was a dumpster fire for the team.  Last year, with the exception of the Rams game, special teams was a positive factor in most of our games.

3.  He was an enforcer for Marrone.  Make no mistake, Marrone had established himself as a competent head coach before he came to Jacksonville.  However, the time and losing that elapsed since he was coaching Buffalo kind of put his accomplishments in that area on the back burner.  To the extent he needed FO support in case of any locker room issues, TC having his back was huge.  If any player has any sort of beef with Marrone, he likely won't be able to play clubhouse lawyer with TC.

If I had to add a 4th thing, drafting Fournette was key too.  I don't know that Caldwell wouldn't have drafted him absent TC's influence, but I firmly believe TC influenced that first pick.

Having said that, Caldwell assembled the bulk of this roster.

What are you arguing?  I already said Caldwell has the eye for talent and I give him credit for buidling most of the roster.  That being said, acquiring the talent is only part of building an organization. 

To me if Dave was the Top Dog before Coughlin and now Coughlin is the top dog that means Dave got demoted. 

I guess you forget under Dave and Gus it was like a college Dorm in the Jags locker room.  Ping pong, videogames, ice cream parties, you name it was going on. 

Tom came in here and instantly changed this culture. Tom came in cleaned house and put this franchise on the right track.  Dave Caldwell has not proven he can do the same.

Rarely do we hear about how the GM allows the locker room to be a certain way.
That nonsense falls on rah rah Bradley... not on Caldwell.
GMs manage rosters and salaries
How the coach uses and develops and in some cases coddles those rosters is out of the GMs hands outside of firing him

And Gus eventually got his axe.

Dave Caldwell didn't create the culture... you're seriously chasing your tail

Caldwell has an eye for talent (which ultimately is what his job boils down to.. acquiring and keeping the best talent for the coach to work with)
Guys being immature, playing ping pong, and all that sillyness was a coaching issue, not a GM issue.

Which everyone will say Bradley was a bad hire and Caldwell's first draft was trash.
Outside of that Caldwell has been damn near superb in HIS job. 

Coughlin was as much an overseer of the GM job as he is the HC job.
THAT is where the culture change happened, Tom and Doug are cut from the same cloth and together THEY changed Gus' ice cream special locker room.
Outside of that, it gives a familiar name for fans to fan about and for free agents who respect the man to flock toward.

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The team is minutes from getting in the Superbowl and we have a thread like this! Welcome to the twilight zone.

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Coughlin in a matter of 6 months or so did sooooo much good (except... ya know, he didn't draft Jalen, ARobinson, Lee, Bortles, Linder, Jack, Smith... didn't have anything to do with signing Malik or Gipson, and honestly, with or without Coughlin we probably still land Calais and AJ because we had the money to make those splashes because of the work Caldwell did YEARS before Coughlin was ever getting kicked to the curb by the G-Men)

Calais Campbell offered myriad reasons why he signed with us.

In this interview, he cites both Coughlin and Caldwell as factors.

https://www.si.com/2017/03/15/calais-cam...cy-signing

Q:  What distinguished Jacksonville in your mind?


CAMPBELL: Young talent. I looked at the roster and said, Oh, wow, this is a team that could really use a guy like me; an older vet who’s been to the playoffs, been to the Super Bowl. I really liked [executive vice president] Tom Coughlin. I’ve always respected him from playing against his team over the years. I like the way he carries himself. His organization has always been top-notch and guys that play for him always say good things about him. Then you look at what they did in free agency and I think it shows they’re committed to winning. Great draft classes the last couple years, so you feel like the GM [Dave Caldwell] has the team headed in the right direction.

But Campbell has also indicated it was a business decision.

http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/...o-business

In short, Kane, you are absolutely right.

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The team is minutes from getting in the Superbowl and we have a thread like this!  Welcome to the twilight zone.

In fairness, this thread was created last August...5 months before we were minutes from getting in the Super Bowl.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Coughlin in a matter of 6 months or so did sooooo much good (except... ya know, he didn't draft Jalen, ARobinson, Lee, Bortles, Linder, Jack, Smith... didn't have anything to do with signing Malik or Gipson, and honestly, with or without Coughlin we probably still land Calais and AJ because we had the money to make those splashes because of the work Caldwell did YEARS before Coughlin was ever getting kicked to the curb by the G-Men)

Calais Campbell offered myriad reasons why he signed with us.

In this interview, he cites both Coughlin and Caldwell as factors.

https://www.si.com/2017/03/15/calais-cam...cy-signing

Q:  What distinguished Jacksonville in your mind?


CAMPBELL: Young talent. I looked at the roster and said, Oh, wow, this is a team that could really use a guy like me; an older vet who’s been to the playoffs, been to the Super Bowl. I really liked [executive vice president] Tom Coughlin. I’ve always respected him from playing against his team over the years. I like the way he carries himself. His organization has always been top-notch and guys that play for him always say good things about him. Then you look at what they did in free agency and I think it shows they’re committed to winning. Great draft classes the last couple years, so you feel like the GM [Dave Caldwell] has the team headed in the right direction.

But Campbell has also indicated it was a business decision.

http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/...o-business

In short, Kane, you are absolutely right.

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The team is minutes from getting in the Superbowl and we have a thread like this!  Welcome to the twilight zone.

In fairness, this thread was created last August...5 months before we were minutes from getting in the Super Bowl.

I did not realize the time frame of the thread, but still, we were on our way to the playoffs and I just don't understand throwing Tom and Caldwell under the bus after the turn around this team made during the season.

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Calais Campbell offered myriad reasons why he signed with us.

In this interview, he cites both Coughlin and Caldwell as factors.

https://www.si.com/2017/03/15/calais-cam...cy-signing


But Campbell has also indicated it was a business decision.

http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/...o-business

In short, Kane, you are absolutely right.

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In fairness, this thread was created last August...5 months before we were minutes from getting in the Super Bowl.

I did not realize the time frame of the thread, but still, we were on our way to the playoffs and I just don't understand throwing Tom and Caldwell under the bus after the turn around this team made during the season.

I don't get it either, to be honest.

Though I disagreed with the analysis that Caldwell was horrible before this thread was created, I could see how people could reach that conclusion.

But now that the team has won, I don't see how people could stick to that conclusion at this stage.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

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In fairness, this thread was created last August...5 months before we were minutes from getting in the Super Bowl.

I did not realize the time frame of the thread, but still, we were on our way to the playoffs and I just don't understand throwing Tom and Caldwell under the bus after the turn around this team made during the season.

I think the vast majority are quite pleased with the new hierarchy and its results. 

We just have a few folks that don't want to admit they were wrong about Caldwell and a few more that still actually believe he's not that good at his job. 

Then there's a few like me who have wasted too much time already trying to point out that Caldwell was doing quite well - and adding Coughlin just made things even better. 

The defense rests   -  for now.

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I did not realize the time frame of the thread, but still, we were on our way to the playoffs and I just don't understand throwing Tom and Caldwell under the bus after the turn around this team made during the season.

I think the vast majority are quite pleased with the new hierarchy and its results. 

We just have a few folks that don't want to admit they were wrong about Caldwell and a few more that still actually believe he's not that good at his job. 

Then there's a few like me who have wasted too much time already trying to point out that Caldwell was doing quite well - and adding Coughlin just made things even better. 

The defense rests   -  for now.

/thread

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It is time for Tom and Shad to cut the head off of the snake.The usual suspects will continue to make excuses for Caldwell, but the man is not good at his job.

In 5 years, this man has managed to field an offensive roster that can't overcome a 10 point deficit without luck.

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Was just about to bring up Caldwell, I open the site and someone has already brought him up. What are talks opinions on Dave now?

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Dave averaged 1 good draft pick per draft. 6 good picks in 6 drafts with 5 of the drafts we pick in the top 5. 2 of the good draft picks were consensus no brainers who 95% wanted in Ramsey and Jack. Telvin, Linder, ARob, Ramsey, Jack, and Yannick.

One could say Cam and this years draft picks are still up in the air. He has had some good FA pick ups but has held on to Bortles who has been average at best but has looked like a bottom 7 or 8 QB since he has been drafted. Held on to Gus a year or 2 to long. He is the guy we want at GM?

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Was just about to bring up Caldwell, I open the site and someone has already brought him up.  What are talks opinions on Dave now?

Dave averaged 1 good draft pick per draft.  6 good picks in 6 drafts with 5 of the drafts we pick in the top 5.   2 of the good draft picks were consensus no brainers who 95% wanted in Ramsey and Jack.   Telvin, Linder, ARob, Ramsey, Jack, and Yannick.  
 
 One could say Cam and this years draft picks are still up in the air.  He has had some good FA pick ups but has held on to Bortles who has been average at best but has looked like a bottom 7 or 8 QB since he has been drafted.  Held on to Gus a year or 2 to long.  He is the guy we want at GM?

It was kind of the perfect storm of missing on draft picks AND not having a good coaching staff in place to coach them. Granted Marrone is better than Gus, he still lacks the qualities of a great coach. Not to mention, word on the street is that he was the only HC candidate willing to take the job with BB5 at the helm.

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It is time for Tom and Shad to cut the head off of the snake.The usual suspects will continue to make excuses for Caldwell, but the man is not good at his job.

In 5 years, this man has managed to field an offensive roster that can't overcome a 10 point deficit without luck.

The only issue I have with Caldwell is extending Blake and that may not even be his call.

Ramsey, Jack, Yan, Cam, Linder, Telvin, Bouye, Campbell, Dareus, Gipson, Westbrook, Cole, Malik..... He also drafted ARob and Colvin. Caldwell is not the issue here and never really has been. He has brought in plenty of talent to this team but the QB is clearly holding them back.

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It is time for Tom and Shad to cut the head off of the snake.The usual suspects will continue to make excuses for Caldwell, but the man is not good at his job.

In 5 years, this man has managed to field an offensive roster that can't overcome a 10 point deficit without luck.

The only issue I have with Caldwell is extending Blake and that may not even be his call.

Ramsey, Jack, Yan, Cam, Linder, Telvin, Bouye, Campbell, Dareus, Gipson, Westbrook, Cole, Malik..... He also drafted ARob and Colvin. Caldwell is not the issue here and never really has been. He has brought in plenty of talent to this team but the QB is clearly holding them back.

You liked the idea of holding on to Gus for all those years?

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Caldwell hit on 1 out of his 6 first round picks. 1 of his 7 2nd round picks. Cam, Chark, and Bryan still a ?

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The only issue I have with Caldwell is extending Blake and that may not even be his call.

Ramsey, Jack, Yan, Cam, Linder, Telvin, Bouye, Campbell, Dareus, Gipson, Westbrook, Cole, Malik..... He also drafted ARob and Colvin. Caldwell is not the issue here and never really has been. He has brought in plenty of talent to this team but the QB is clearly holding them back.

You liked the idea of holding on to Gus for all those years?

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Caldwell hit on 1 out of his 6 first round picks.  1 of his 7 2nd round picks.  Cam, Chark, and Bryan still a ?

Caldwell implied the Gus Bus was a joint decision between he and Tony and Shad. He also reiterated Shad's intent to "see it through" with Gus. 

I really wish they'd have parted ways with him one year sooner, but it's pretty clear Caldwell didn't have autonomy in that decision.  
If this coaching staff doesn't get this fantastic defensive roster (that Dave assembled) performing up to their abilities in the next 2 or 3 weeks, then you could consider beginning a discussion on coaching staff decisions and Caldwell's involvement there. 

Every team's fan base picks apart draft picks in hindsight. Can't let yourself go too far down that rabbit hole. He's made some good ones, made some bad ones, just like most GMs. 

The rest is herp derp IMO. 

It's funny this has to be re-hashed any time the team hits a rough stretch. (happened around this time last year too) 
Some of you guys handle losses like AJ Green handles trash talk.  
Not well.

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Caldwell should be fired but we all know Shad just doesn't have the %($&@.

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Caldwell isn't the issue. Its Bortles, our injuries at O-line and our defensive scheme. Those are our issues.

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