Ouch. Based on the camp reports, I'm getting the impression that the signings of Hayden and Moncrief were mistakes that wasted a lot of cap space. That was the consensus of the board at the time, which makes me wonder how Caldwell failed to see what most people here thought was obvious.

I'm ok with some short-term insurance policy type of signings, and absolutely ok if a rookie or second year guy has the talent to make those insurance policies expendable.

Exactly...
Had Moncrief not been signed and Lee (or Westbrook for that matter) was dinged again, and Chark didn't shine... We'd be cursing them for not addressing WR better.


Although hindsight is a wonderful thing...

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I'm ok with some short-term insurance policy type of signings, and absolutely ok if a rookie or second year guy has the talent to make those insurance policies expendable.

Exactly...
Had Moncrief not been signed and Lee (or Westbrook for that matter) was dinged again, and Chark didn't shine... We'd be cursing them for not addressing WR better.


Although hindsight is a wonderful thing...

It wasn't hindsight. A large portion of the board didn't like the Hayden and Moncrief signings at the time they were announced.

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"Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?"

Hayden reportedly played well in the team scrimmage last Friday and his contract has an out clause after two years. That's not "wasting cap space." 
Moncrief is on a one year deal and was lighting up camp until he got hurt. Again, not "wasting space." 
Both of their contracts are actually very intentionally designed to allow for more cap space when it's time to re-sign our young talent.

The problem is that those two salaries mean we may have to start dismantling the defense immediately after the season.  That's $20 mil that could have rolled over to next season.  Instead, we will have to cut at least $20 mil in salary before the start of the next league year.  Do you want to have to cut Dareus and/or Jackson and Church, maybe even Gipson or Campbell to get under the cap because we signed Moncrief and Hayden?  I don't.

I expect some creative restructuring to keep things mostly in tact, but some big pieces will be sacrificed in large part thanks to those 2 signings.  Our home-grown talent will start to need new contracts too.  Can we in good conscience keep Yannick on his 3rd round rookie deal if he's even better this year than last?

Coughlin definitely went all in for the Super Bowl this year.  Hopefully it pays off.  
I think I'm going to just quit thinking about it and enjoy the season now that it's almost here.  I'm sure I'll bithc about it after a few beers though.M

My math and your math are apparently different. I don’t see the urgency you see, and I see plenty of fat to trim in 2019/2020.

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It's a shame Ramsey has no ball skills.

Okay!  Okay!  Okay!  I was wrong to question why he did not have many interceptions.  Darn happy to be so wrong too.

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Original Season Ticket Holder - Retired  1995 - 2020


At some point you just have to let go of what you thought should happen and live in what is happening.
 

I'm ok with some short-term insurance policy type of signings, and absolutely ok if a rookie or second year guy has the talent to make those insurance policies expendable.

I agree, but the premium on the insurance is very high.

We needed to replace Colvin, but there were other good nickel CBs available for less than half of what Hayden got. Even before the Chark pick, we had three starting WRs in Lee, Cole, and Westbrook. Mickens looked OK as a backup too, and the Jags have been very good at finding good undrafted WRs.

The problem is not our cap room in 2018. I just wonder if, instead of those two, the roughly $20M in cap space could have been rolled over to next year when there will be lots of contracts up for renewal. Does the NFL still allow cap rollover, and if so would the Jags be eligible after having spent below the cap for so many years? If no to either question, then those two signings were not out of line.

What other nickel backs were out there for half the price? I recall looking at the list of those available, and it was a very short list. 

As for their combined cap hit, and just to be more accurate, it's more like roughly $17 mil.

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'02

I agree, but the premium on the insurance is very high.

We needed to replace Colvin, but there were other good nickel CBs available for less than half of what Hayden got. Even before the Chark pick, we had three starting WRs in Lee, Cole, and Westbrook. Mickens looked OK as a backup too, and the Jags have been very good at finding good undrafted WRs.

The problem is not our cap room in 2018. I just wonder if, instead of those two, the roughly $20M in cap space could have been rolled over to next year when there will be lots of contracts up for renewal. Does the NFL still allow cap rollover, and if so would the Jags be eligible after having spent below the cap for so many years? If no to either question, then those two signings were not out of line.

What other nickel backs were out there for half the price? I recall looking at the list of those available, and it was a very short list. 

As for their combined cap hit, and just to be more accurate, it's more like roughly $17 mil.

1. I remember there were a few, I think I put Tramon Williams and Terrance Mitchell in that category, and Patrick Robinson signed a 4-year contract for $20M, with $9M guaranteed (Hayden had $9.45M guaranteed). Admittedly PR wasn't half the cost, but he was cheaper.

2. Made me look! The 2018 cap may have been $17M (I think it was actually smaller), but the total guarantee was $19M (hence my roughly $20M), which is what was lost to the 2019 cap by signing the two. In truth I just remembered each as being around $10M, so I used the term "roughly" rather than look it up.

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"Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?"

I agree, but the premium on the insurance is very high.

We needed to replace Colvin, but there were other good nickel CBs available for less than half of what Hayden got. Even before the Chark pick, we had three starting WRs in Lee, Cole, and Westbrook. Mickens looked OK as a backup too, and the Jags have been very good at finding good undrafted WRs.

The problem is not our cap room in 2018. I just wonder if, instead of those two, the roughly $20M in cap space could have been rolled over to next year when there will be lots of contracts up for renewal. Does the NFL still allow cap rollover, and if so would the Jags be eligible after having spent below the cap for so many years? If no to either question, then those two signings were not out of line.

What other nickel backs were out there for half the price? I recall looking at the list of those available, and it was a very short list. 

As for their combined cap hit, and just to be more accurate, it's more like roughly $17 mil.

The important note here is that both players can be gone in 2020 (when the rubber really hits the road cap wise) and the jags will only be on the hook for 1.6 mil of Hayden’s contract.

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I agree, but the premium on the insurance is very high.

We needed to replace Colvin, but there were other good nickel CBs available for less than half of what Hayden got. Even before the Chark pick, we had three starting WRs in Lee, Cole, and Westbrook. Mickens looked OK as a backup too, and the Jags have been very good at finding good undrafted WRs.

The problem is not our cap room in 2018. I just wonder if, instead of those two, the roughly $20M in cap space could have been rolled over to next year when there will be lots of contracts up for renewal. Does the NFL still allow cap rollover, and if so would the Jags be eligible after having spent below the cap for so many years? If no to either question, then those two signings were not out of line.

What other nickel backs were out there for half the price? I recall looking at the list of those available, and it was a very short list. 

As for their combined cap hit, and just to be more accurate, it's more like roughly $17 mil.

Very good Robey-Coleman, and formerly very good Tyrann Matthieu (unlike the thus far very very bad Hayden) signed for significantly less than Hayden as well. There were like 5 or 6 superior slot corners that signed for less money.

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What other nickel backs were out there for half the price? I recall looking at the list of those available, and it was a very short list. 

As for their combined cap hit, and just to be more accurate, it's more like roughly $17 mil.

Very good Robey-Coleman, and formerly very good Tyrann Matthieu (unlike the thus far very very bad Hayden) signed for significantly less than Hayden as well. There were like 5 or 6 superior slot corners that signed for less money.

Get out of here with that 5 to 8 crap... 3 absolute tops, and that includes Mattheiu who is a FS.

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'02

Very good Robey-Coleman, and formerly very good Tyrann Matthieu (unlike the thus far very very bad Hayden) signed for significantly less than Hayden as well. There were like 5 or 6 superior slot corners that signed for less money.

Get out of here with that 5 to 8 crap... 3 absolute tops, and that includes Mattheiu who is a FS.

I mean, considering that Hayden has been graded among the very worst corners in the league every year...I could have just said every slot corner that was signed was better and it probably wouldn't be wrong. Sorry but I can't play revisionist history just because my fan biases want it to be different. He's been really bad his whole career, we signed him to a lot more money than many players who are better, and one good report from a team scrimmage of all things isn't changing like 4 years of history for me. Maybe, hopefully, it changes with maturity/health/elite surrounding cast...but it's going to take a good amount of regular season action to consider changing that opinion.

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It's a shame Ramsey has no ball skills.

Okay!  Okay!  Okay!  I was wrong to question why he did not have many interceptions.  Darn happy to be so wrong too.

Since you are so happily eating crow, you may want to revisit your Blair Brown prediction as well...

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"Before you criticize a man, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, if he gets angry, he's a mile away and barefoot."

Very good Robey-Coleman, and formerly very good Tyrann Matthieu (unlike the thus far very very bad Hayden) signed for significantly less than Hayden as well. There were like 5 or 6 superior slot corners that signed for less money.

Upper, as a potentially knowledgeable fan of the game, don't you think it is rather inane, or perhaps terribly indulgent to question the acquisition of a player before seeing him perform a single snap with your team?  What's good for the goose may not be good for the gander. Don't you feel the current Jags brass deserve benefits of doubt considering their rapt ascension? 

Anyway, I generally like your takes, even with their cynicism. Sometimes however, let's try to enforce patience and wait for things to play out. Or, we can carry on unintelligibly...

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Success is a journey, not a destination.  Go all out Mighty Jaguars.

Is Moncrief seriously hurt again?? Jeez

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Very good Robey-Coleman, and formerly very good Tyrann Matthieu (unlike the thus far very very bad Hayden) signed for significantly less than Hayden as well. There were like 5 or 6 superior slot corners that signed for less money.

Upper, as a potentially knowledgeable fan of the game, don't you think it is rather inane, or perhaps terribly indulgent to question the acquisition of a player before seeing him perform a single snap with your team?  What's good for the goose may not be good for the gander. Don't you feel the current Jags brass deserve benefits of doubt considering their rapt ascension? 

Anyway, I generally like your takes, even with their cynicism. Sometimes however, let's try to enforce patience and wait for things to play out. Or, we can carry on unintelligibly...

Of course I am going to be patient with it, there is no other option. As I even said at the end it will take many regular season performances to change my opinion. That's the patient option. The impatient people are the ones scrapping 4 years of bad performances and changing their minds over a team scrimmage, or worse simply because it fits their biases.

And yes I do hope the front office knows something we don't. Otherwise all we have to go on is what has happened leading up to this point, which is fairly straightforwardly bad player got more money than plenty of good players.

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Is Moncrief seriously hurt again?? Jeez

I'm not worried. The other receivers have been looking very good in camp. In fact, they've largely outperformed Moncrief, so far. We're much deeper at the position than I ever anticipated. Moncrief has battled injuries and inconsistency his entire pro career, which is why I found it odd that he got so much money. It's a 1 year deal though, so no big deal. If he stays healthy during the season, great. If he continues battling injuries though, we've got a solid group pf receivers.

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I agree, but the premium on the insurance is very high.

We needed to replace Colvin, but there were other good nickel CBs available for less than half of what Hayden got. Even before the Chark pick, we had three starting WRs in Lee, Cole, and Westbrook. Mickens looked OK as a backup too, and the Jags have been very good at finding good undrafted WRs.

The problem is not our cap room in 2018. I just wonder if, instead of those two, the roughly $20M in cap space could have been rolled over to next year when there will be lots of contracts up for renewal. Does the NFL still allow cap rollover, and if so would the Jags be eligible after having spent below the cap for so many years? If no to either question, then those two signings were not out of line.

What other nickel backs were out there for half the price? I recall looking at the list of those available, and it was a very short list. 

As for their combined cap hit, and just to be more accurate, it's more like roughly $17 mil.

I was personally fine with what we had on the roster.  Do Moncrief and Hayden improve the roster?  Probably a little, but it's not likely that they make it significantly better.  I hope they do though. 
Meh, Coughlin is adept at pushing money out into the future, which is what we're going to have to do a lot more of now.  At least it's a lot harder to find "cap hell" these days than it was in his first time around here.

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Exactly...
Had Moncrief not been signed and Lee (or Westbrook for that matter) was dinged again, and Chark didn't shine... We'd be cursing them for not addressing WR better.


Although hindsight is a wonderful thing...

It wasn't hindsight. A large portion of the board didn't like the Hayden and Moncrief signings at the time they were announced.

LOL the majority of the board consists of a few dozen fans out of tens of thousands... 
The hindsight is talking about how the draft played out after signing guys, or now knowing a rookie like Chark is really coming on strong.... so in hindsight, maybe we didn't need Moncrief AND Lee... but had those moves NOT been made a majority of this board would be mad about relying on rookies and UDFA WRs.

Also... Hayden isn't looking like a wasted pick at all, and people fretting over the cap situation based on mediocre 1-2 year deals is laughable.

But... carry on. (You should travel over to the PANIC thread)

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There's a reason the Honey Badger was signed so very very late in FA.
Armchair GMs are crazy.

Maybe Hayden was bad because.... well the Lions were bad?
Maybe they had him outside and he didn't play as well there? (Remember when Colvin got time outside and wasn't great--good luck with that tinhorns)

Considering what I've witnessed from this front office over the years... I'ma trust that they knew what they were doing. With the signings and the contracts.
That doesn't mean these guys (DC and TC) can do no wrong.
And it doesn't mean it won't eventually be like "Meh, probably could have passed on this guy"

But had they NOT signed Moncrief or a NB and we had a couple injuries to WR or DB people would be crying.
Or had some young guys not shows promise in camp (remember, they haven't played real games yet)

But... I suppose when your team isn't trash some people have to find something to worry and complain about
even if it is misguided

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What other nickel backs were out there for half the price? I recall looking at the list of those available, and it was a very short list. 

As for their combined cap hit, and just to be more accurate, it's more like roughly $17 mil.

I was personally fine with what we had on the roster.  Do Moncrief and Hayden improve the roster?  Probably a little, but it's not likely that they make it significantly better.  I hope they do though. 
Meh, Coughlin is adept at pushing money out into the future, which is what we're going to have to do a lot more of now.  At least it's a lot harder to find "cap hell" these days than it was in his first time around here.

Just remember... Coughlin ain't really doing the contracts.
Caldwell and Idzik handle those duties, iirc

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https://twitter.com/phillip_heilman/stat...91168?s=19

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Get out of here with that 5 to 8 crap... 3 absolute tops, and that includes Mattheiu who is a FS.

I mean, considering that Hayden has been graded among the very worst corners in the league every year...I could have just said every slot corner that was signed was better and it probably wouldn't be wrong. Sorry but I can't play revisionist history just because my fan biases want it to be different. He's been really bad his whole career, we signed him to a lot more money than many players who are better, and one good report from a team scrimmage of all things isn't changing like 4 years of history for me. Maybe, hopefully, it changes with maturity/health/elite surrounding cast...but it's going to take a good amount of regular season action to consider changing that opinion.

Please Source "Hayden is consistently graded as one of the worst corners in the league" umm last i checked he didnt allow a TD last year as Detroit's #2 CB. He played well last night save for one poor tackling attempt on Tedd Ginn Jr. He blitzed effectively from the slot. had good coverage on the night and showed the skills needed to play the nickel. I think people over glorify Colvin a bit. He was good but IRDT he was head and shoulders above Hayden etc.

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Championship Formula:

1) Draft Trevor Lawrence!
2) Play good physical Defense! 
3) Keep 91% of the roster healthy!
4) ???
5) Blank #2
6) CHAMPIONSHIP!!!