I mean, considering that Hayden has been graded among the very worst corners in the league every year...I could have just said every slot corner that was signed was better and it probably wouldn't be wrong. Sorry but I can't play revisionist history just because my fan biases want it to be different. He's been really bad his whole career, we signed him to a lot more money than many players who are better, and one good report from a team scrimmage of all things isn't changing like 4 years of history for me. Maybe, hopefully, it changes with maturity/health/elite surrounding cast...but it's going to take a good amount of regular season action to consider changing that opinion.

Please Source "Hayden is consistently graded as one of the worst corners in the league" umm last i checked he didnt allow a TD last year as Detroit's #2 CB. He played well last night save for one poor tackling attempt on Tedd Ginn Jr. He blitzed effectively from the slot. had good coverage on the night and showed the skills needed to play the nickel. I think people over glorify Colvin a bit. He was good but IRDT he was head and shoulders above Hayden etc.

I already have on more than one occasion.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DYQEu_UX4AAYKZp.jpg:medium

NFL1000 graded top 101 CBs in 2015, Hayden wasn't on it. In 2014 he was 69th, 2016 he was 91st, and last year he was up to a whopping 68th.

That's two teams of people who grade every individual player in the league and both of them have Hayden as very poor every year. That's not to mention the dozen or more expert opinion tweets that questioned us when they saw that we signed Hayden, and the flat out laughed when they saw for how much.

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Please Source "Hayden is consistently graded as one of the worst corners in the league" umm last i checked he didnt allow a TD last year as Detroit's #2 CB. He played well last night save for one poor tackling attempt on Tedd Ginn Jr. He blitzed effectively from the slot. had good coverage on the night and showed the skills needed to play the nickel. I think people over glorify Colvin a bit. He was good but IRDT he was head and shoulders above Hayden etc.

I already have on more than one occasion.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DYQEu_UX4AAYKZp.jpg:medium

NFL1000 graded top 101 CBs in 2015, Hayden wasn't on it. In 2014 he was 69th, 2016 he was 91st, and last year he was up to a whopping 68th.

That's two teams of people who grade every individual player in the league and both of them have Hayden as very poor every year. That's not to mention the dozen or more expert opinion tweets that questioned us when they saw that we signed Hayden, and the flat out laughed when they saw for how much.

So, by your numbers he is no worse than the third best CB on any team in the league. Which is exactly what we are asking him to be. What is the issue?

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Signature goes here.

So, by your numbers he is no worse than the third best CB on any team in the league. Which is exactly what we are asking him to be. What is the issue?

Because we paid him as a top ~20 corner and passed on a lot of slot corners who graded much higher and also cost much less.

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Fowler taken off PUP list and back to practice with the team.

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Please Source "Hayden is consistently graded as one of the worst corners in the league" umm last i checked he didnt allow a TD last year as Detroit's #2 CB. He played well last night save for one poor tackling attempt on Tedd Ginn Jr. He blitzed effectively from the slot. had good coverage on the night and showed the skills needed to play the nickel. I think people over glorify Colvin a bit. He was good but IRDT he was head and shoulders above Hayden etc.

I already have on more than one occasion.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DYQEu_UX4AAYKZp.jpg:medium

NFL1000 graded top 101 CBs in 2015, Hayden wasn't on it. In 2014 he was 69th, 2016 he was 91st, and last year he was up to a whopping 68th.

That's two teams of people who grade every individual player in the league and both of them have Hayden as very poor every year. That's not to mention the dozen or more expert opinion tweets that questioned us when they saw that we signed Hayden, and the flat out laughed when they saw for how much.

I’ll just leave this here....

 In 2017, Hayden allowed a career-best 0 TDs and 76.7 passer rating when targeted on 488 snaps, per Pro Football Focus. Hayden allowed 29 receptions on 50 targets (58.0% catch rate) for only 315 yards with 6 pass deflections and 2 fumble recoveries (1 returned for TD).


——————————————————————-

In comparison, Aaron Colvin allowed 45 receptions on 62 targets (72.6% catch rate) for 317 yards on 700 snaps, also not allowing a TD in 2017. Colvin’s passer rating against when targeted was 83.9 and he finished the regular season with 1 pass deflection and no interceptions.

https://www.lockedonjaguars.com/jaguars/...e-jaguars/

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"Before you criticize a man, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, if he gets angry, he's a mile away and barefoot."

I already have on more than one occasion.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DYQEu_UX4AAYKZp.jpg:medium

NFL1000 graded top 101 CBs in 2015, Hayden wasn't on it. In 2014 he was 69th, 2016 he was 91st, and last year he was up to a whopping 68th.

That's two teams of people who grade every individual player in the league and both of them have Hayden as very poor every year. That's not to mention the dozen or more expert opinion tweets that questioned us when they saw that we signed Hayden, and the flat out laughed when they saw for how much.

I’ll just leave this here....

 In 2017, Hayden allowed a career-best 0 TDs and 76.7 passer rating when targeted on 488 snaps, per Pro Football Focus. Hayden allowed 29 receptions on 50 targets (58.0% catch rate) for only 315 yards with 6 pass deflections and 2 fumble recoveries (1 returned for TD).


——————————————————————-

In comparison, Aaron Colvin allowed 45 receptions on 62 targets (72.6% catch rate) for 317 yards on 700 snaps, also not allowing a TD in 2017. Colvin’s passer rating against when targeted was 83.9 and he finished the regular season with 1 pass deflection and no interceptions.

https://www.lockedonjaguars.com/jaguars/...e-jaguars/

If your point is that Colvin has been overrated as a nickel CB, then I agree. But using just 2017 stats doesn't tell the entire story. Hayden was garbage until last season, Colvin wasn't.

In any case, your stats have nothing to do with the main claim that Hayden was well overpaid, and thus a waste of cap space (loss of rollover for the future if nothing else). As Upper has pointed out, there were several higher rated nickel CBs who were available for less. Even if the Jags saw something in Hayden's play that could be corrected to make him well worth the contract (which I hope is true) they should have waited and signed him for less. They paid way over market value for someone with his career history. Now that the Jags are no longer bottom dwellers, and with no state income tax, there's no reason the Jags still need to overpay for mid-range free agents.

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"Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?"

Please Source "Hayden is consistently graded as one of the worst corners in the league" umm last i checked he didnt allow a TD last year as Detroit's #2 CB. He played well last night save for one poor tackling attempt on Tedd Ginn Jr. He blitzed effectively from the slot. had good coverage on the night and showed the skills needed to play the nickel. I think people over glorify Colvin a bit. He was good but IRDT he was head and shoulders above Hayden etc.

I already have on more than one occasion.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DYQEu_UX4AAYKZp.jpg:medium

NFL1000 graded top 101 CBs in 2015, Hayden wasn't on it. In 2014 he was 69th, 2016 he was 91st, and last year he was up to a whopping 68th.

That's two teams of people who grade every individual player in the league and both of them have Hayden as very poor every year. That's not to mention the dozen or more expert opinion tweets that questioned us when they saw that we signed Hayden, and the flat out laughed when they saw for how much.

LMAO, so with 32 teams, each team having 2 starting CB's for a total of 64 CB's. Hayden was brought in to be our "nickel" aka the third CB. so you're mad that he's "a whopping 68th" soooo he's the 4th best 3rd CB or "nickel" in the league according to that... and you're UPSET?!?!? Get over yourself. "expert tweets" just watch him play last year, didn't allow a TD, shadowed #2 WR's just about every week and played pretty well. You're grasping at straws here, and being 68th best CB in NFL is pretty good for a nickel considering that every #1 & #2 CB are also included on this list.

You're biased for no reason; all of your sources on why he's "bad" are from "expert tweets" ... Have you even seen him play?? What receiver did him dirty last year as he was up in Detroit that causes you to have this level of animosity? Do you also think the Jags will finish 4th in the division because Collin Cowherd "an expert" tweeted it?? I laughed harder at reading your post than you laughed seeing we signed Hayden. LOLLLLLLLLLLLL.

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Championship Formula:

1) Draft Trevor Lawrence!
2) Play good physical Defense! 
3) Keep 91% of the roster healthy!
4) ???
5) Blank #2
6) CHAMPIONSHIP!!!

Colvin was always trailing the WR but he tackled well, so he didn't give up 1st downs. It would have been stupid to pay him a lot of money.

Sent from my SM-T820 using Tapatalk

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I’ll just leave this here....



https://www.lockedonjaguars.com/jaguars/...e-jaguars/

If your point is that Colvin has been overrated as a nickel CB, then I agree. But using just 2017 stats doesn't tell the entire story. Hayden was garbage until last season, Colvin wasn't.

In any case, your stats have nothing to do with the main claim that Hayden was well overpaid, and thus a waste of cap space (loss of rollover for the future if nothing else). As Upper has pointed out, there were several higher rated nickel CBs who were available for less. Even if the Jags saw something in Hayden's play that could be corrected to make him well worth the contract (which I hope is true) they should have waited and signed him for less. They paid way over market value for someone with his career history. Now that the Jags are no longer bottom dwellers, and with no state income tax, there's no reason the Jags still need to overpay for mid-range free agents.

Colvin was and still is overrated, especially on this board. He was a good tackler but that’s about it.

Sure Hayden is “overpaid” but so is every free agent acquisition. We have no idea what teams were pursuing him or what he was being offered. We also have no idea if we offered those other free agents you brought up and we were shunned. We had one good year. It’ll take more than one winning season to change the perception of “those lowly Jaguars” regardless of what a handful of outlets say.

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"Before you criticize a man, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, if he gets angry, he's a mile away and barefoot."

I already have on more than one occasion.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DYQEu_UX4AAYKZp.jpg:medium

NFL1000 graded top 101 CBs in 2015, Hayden wasn't on it. In 2014 he was 69th, 2016 he was 91st, and last year he was up to a whopping 68th.

That's two teams of people who grade every individual player in the league and both of them have Hayden as very poor every year. That's not to mention the dozen or more expert opinion tweets that questioned us when they saw that we signed Hayden, and the flat out laughed when they saw for how much.

LMAO, so with 32 teams, each team having 2 starting CB's for a total of 64 CB's. Hayden was brought in to be our "nickel" aka the third CB. so you're mad that he's "a whopping 68th" soooo he's the 4th best 3rd CB or "nickel" in the league according to that... and you're UPSET?!?!? Get over yourself. "expert tweets" just watch him play last year, didn't allow a TD, shadowed #2 WR's just about every week and played pretty well. You're grasping at straws here, and being 68th best CB in NFL is pretty good for a nickel considering that every #1 & #2 CB are also included on this list.

You're biased for no reason; all of your sources on why he's "bad" are from "expert tweets" ... Have you even seen him play?? What receiver did him dirty last year as he was up in Detroit that causes you to have this level of animosity? Do you also think the Jags will finish 4th in the division because Collin Cowherd "an expert" tweeted it?? I laughed harder at reading your post than you laughed seeing we signed Hayden. LOLLLLLLLLLLLL.

Yeah man, me and my calm showing of multi year, multi sourced evidence is definitely the biased one...not your scare quotes and all caps screed.

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https://twitter.com/PFF_Jaguars/status/1...65024?s=19


I thought he looked pretty good too.

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I already have on more than one occasion.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DYQEu_UX4AAYKZp.jpg:medium

NFL1000 graded top 101 CBs in 2015, Hayden wasn't on it. In 2014 he was 69th, 2016 he was 91st, and last year he was up to a whopping 68th.

That's two teams of people who grade every individual player in the league and both of them have Hayden as very poor every year. That's not to mention the dozen or more expert opinion tweets that questioned us when they saw that we signed Hayden, and the flat out laughed when they saw for how much.

LMAO, so with 32 teams, each team having 2 starting CB's for a total of 64 CB's. Hayden was brought in to be our "nickel" aka the third CB. so you're mad that he's "a whopping 68th" soooo he's the 4th best 3rd CB or "nickel" in the league according to that... and you're UPSET?!?!? Get over yourself. "expert tweets" just watch him play last year, didn't allow a TD, shadowed #2 WR's just about every week and played pretty well. You're grasping at straws here, and being 68th best CB in NFL is pretty good for a nickel considering that every #1 & #2 CB are also included on this list.

That's a fallacious argument. First off, there are a lot of bad starting CBs in the NFL. I would want a CB we signed and expect to play roughly 60% of the time to be better than a lot of #2 CBs. So no, being 68th is not "pretty good" for a nickel. Or are you claiming that being only slightly worse than the two clots starters and the two tacks starters and the two tinhorn starters (just to use our division) is still "pretty good."

And since the argument was as much about the cap cost as the player, I'd add that probably more than half the starting CBs in the league make less than what we gave Hayden.

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"Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?"

LMAO, so with 32 teams, each team having 2 starting CB's for a total of 64 CB's. Hayden was brought in to be our "nickel" aka the third CB. so you're mad that he's "a whopping 68th" soooo he's the 4th best 3rd CB or "nickel" in the league according to that... and you're UPSET?!?!? Get over yourself. "expert tweets" just watch him play last year, didn't allow a TD, shadowed #2 WR's just about every week and played pretty well. You're grasping at straws here, and being 68th best CB in NFL is pretty good for a nickel considering that every #1 & #2 CB are also included on this list.

That's a fallacious argument. First off, there are a lot of bad starting CBs in the NFL. I would want a CB we signed and expect to play roughly 60% of the time to be better than a lot of #2 CBs. So no, being 68th is not "pretty good" for a nickel. Or are you claiming that being only slightly worse than the two clots starters and the two tacks starters and the two tinhorn starters (just to use our division) is still "pretty good."

And since the argument was as much about the cap cost as the player, I'd add that probably more than half the starting CBs in the league make less than what we gave Hayden.

Let’s not speculate. Take a look at the numbers.

Cap hit:

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/cap...ornerback/

Total cash:

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/cash/cornerback/

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"Before you criticize a man, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, if he gets angry, he's a mile away and barefoot."

Yeah, whining about a free agent being overpaid is definitely just pissing in the wind.
Nonetheless, Hayden and the nickel spot is a legit concern right now.
I’m not tripping though. There’s a decent chance he settles into the role yet, and Patmon playing well is gravy.

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So, by your numbers he is no worse than the third best CB on any team in the league. Which is exactly what we are asking him to be. What is the issue?

Because we paid him as a top ~20 corner and passed on a lot of slot corners who graded much higher and also cost much less.

Be sure to check out those links that knarnn posted. They show Hayden as right about #40 with his cap hit and right about #30 in cash earnings.

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'02

That's a fallacious argument. First off, there are a lot of bad starting CBs in the NFL. I would want a CB we signed and expect to play roughly 60% of the time to be better than a lot of #2 CBs. So no, being 68th is not "pretty good" for a nickel. Or are you claiming that being only slightly worse than the two clots starters and the two tacks starters and the two tinhorn starters (just to use our division) is still "pretty good."

And since the argument was as much about the cap cost as the player, I'd add that probably more than half the starting CBs in the league make less than what we gave Hayden.

Let’s not speculate. Take a look at the numbers.

Cap hit:

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/cap...ornerback/

Total cash:

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/cash/cornerback/

Thanks for the links. I didn't know that there was a web page where salaries were broken down in such detail for a given position.

According to those numbers he makes more than about half the 64 top paid CBs, and a few of those above him may not be starters. It seems my guess was pretty good.

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Because we paid him as a top ~20 corner and passed on a lot of slot corners who graded much higher and also cost much less.

Be sure to check out those links that knarnn posted. They show Hayden as right about #40 with his cap hit and right about #30 in cash earnings.

So if you believe the analysis that Hayden was the 68th best CB then Upper's point stands.

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"Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?"

I already have on more than one occasion.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DYQEu_UX4AAYKZp.jpg:medium

NFL1000 graded top 101 CBs in 2015, Hayden wasn't on it. In 2014 he was 69th, 2016 he was 91st, and last year he was up to a whopping 68th.

That's two teams of people who grade every individual player in the league and both of them have Hayden as very poor every year. That's not to mention the dozen or more expert opinion tweets that questioned us when they saw that we signed Hayden, and the flat out laughed when they saw for how much.

So, by your numbers he is no worse than the third best CB on any team in the league. Which is exactly what we are asking him to be. What is the issue?

32 teams in the league, * 2 = 64 which means he is a top 4 nickel in the NFL. 

When your argument backfires lol

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LMAO, so with 32 teams, each team having 2 starting CB's for a total of 64 CB's. Hayden was brought in to be our "nickel" aka the third CB. so you're mad that he's "a whopping 68th" soooo he's the 4th best 3rd CB or "nickel" in the league according to that... and you're UPSET?!?!? Get over yourself. "expert tweets" just watch him play last year, didn't allow a TD, shadowed #2 WR's just about every week and played pretty well. You're grasping at straws here, and being 68th best CB in NFL is pretty good for a nickel considering that every #1 & #2 CB are also included on this list.

That's a fallacious argument. First off, there are a lot of bad starting CBs in the NFL. I would want a CB we signed and expect to play roughly 60% of the time to be better than a lot of #2 CBs. So no, being 68th is not "pretty good" for a nickel. Or are you claiming that being only slightly worse than the two clots starters and the two tacks starters and the two tinhorn starters (just to use our division) is still "pretty good."

And since the argument was as much about the cap cost as the player, I'd add that probably more than half the starting CBs in the league make less than what we gave Hayden.

Umm, his argument was not fallacious, it was based on math. Your counter argument was fallacious because it assumes every starting CB is in the top 64 (including colts). If all CB talent was spread equally among the NFL, Hayden would be the 4th best Nickel corner (according to YOUR argument that you meant to be a bad thing). Since it isn't spread equally, its even better, that means our nickel corner is better than many teams #2 CB. 

You just keep digging your hole deeper and deeper. Just admit when you are wrong.

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https://twitter.com/mike_e_kaye/status/1...33056?s=21

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https://twitter.com/jpshadrick/status/10...12288?s=21

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