There is a tooooon of confirmation bias in this thread.  "I like TC more than Dave, so obviously TC has more influence on these good drafts."  Can we talk about how Fournette certainly seems more of TC's style than Dave's?  Are we going to ignore Ramsey/Jack/Ngakoue before TC arrived?  Taven (who's now beginning to look better) was definitely a Dave pick because we didn't like it?

Come on, guys. Dave is a quality GM.

Ramsey, Jack, and Ngakoue were good picks although Ramsey and Jack where no-brainers frankly. I'm glad Jack fell to us thanks to the rumors about his knee. It doesn't mean that Caldwell has done a great job overall. Look prior to the 2016 draft. Need I really invoke the name of Luke Joeckel?

I would say he did "ok" with Linder (not a great center but certainly serviceable), Marquis Lee (pretty good receiver but suffers from white rhino syndrome) and Telvin Smith (although Smith might be retired now). Beyond that, the pickings are pretty slim.

Since TC came on board DC has turned it around. Fournette, Richardson, Taylor are the kind of lunch pail kind of players TC was always fond of. The three drafts since he's been here has great picks at higher positions and great value at lower positions. Minshew no matter how you look at it was the kind of value pick that DC never came close too by himself.

Fournette is as hot and cold as players can get.  Still needs to prove a LOT to be remotely worthy of a #4 pick. 
 Taylor was just as much a "no brainer" as the others you don't want to credit Caldwell for since he fell so far.  Richardson is a work in progress. 

I find it very odd that so many folks feel so convicted in their assumptions and speculations about what exactly Caldwell and/or Coughlin are responsible for.  You guys are just guessing. You have absolutely no idea which picks (if any) Coughlin altered from Dave's big board. 

Let's not forget that they are BOTH responsible for the Bortles extension as well. 

I can appreciate a hypothesis that TC has positively influenced a few good personnel moves since he arrived, but there's no way to know what he's actually done in that regard. The official story is that there's always a consensus. We're not privy to the process beyond that.

---

There is a tooooon of confirmation bias in this thread.  "I like TC more than Dave, so obviously TC has more influence on these good drafts."  Can we talk about how Fournette certainly seems more of TC's style than Dave's?  Are we going to ignore Ramsey/Jack/Ngakoue before TC arrived?  Taven (who's now beginning to look better) was definitely a Dave pick because we didn't like it?

Come on, guys. Dave is a quality GM.

Ramsey, Jack, and Ngakoue were good picks although Ramsey and Jack where no-brainers frankly. I'm glad Jack fell to us thanks to the rumors about his knee. It doesn't mean that Caldwell has done a great job overall. Look prior to the 2016 draft. Need I really invoke the name of Luke Joeckel?

I would say he did "ok" with Linder (not a great center but certainly serviceable), Marquis Lee (pretty good receiver but suffers from white rhino syndrome) and Telvin Smith (although Smith might be retired now). Beyond that, the pickings are pretty slim.

Since TC came on board DC has turned it around. Fournette, Richardson, Taylor are the kind of lunch pail kind of players TC was always fond of. The three drafts since he's been here has great picks at higher positions and great value at lower positions. Minshew no matter how you look at it was the kind of value pick that DC never came close too by himself.

You're putting Leonard Fournette, Will Richardson, Jawaan Taylor, and Minshew in the Coughlin column

Vs
Ramsey, Jack, Ngakoue, Linder, Lee, Joeckel, and Telvin Smith in the Caldwell column and declaring decisive victory for Coughlin? 

Anyway, I'm with NYC. Impossible to know what lies where between the two and frankly I see very little difference in the overall quality of the drafts. The biggest sin in my eyes was trying to salvage Bortles by masking him with Fournette and there's no way any of us can know how that decision was ultimately made.

---

Fournette is as hot and cold as players can get.  Still needs to prove a LOT to be remotely worthy of a #4 pick. 
 Taylor was just as much a "no brainer" as the others you don't want to credit Caldwell for since he fell so far.  Richardson is a work in progress. 

I find it very odd that so many folks feel so convicted in their assumptions and speculations about what exactly Caldwell and/or Coughlin are responsible for.  You guys are just guessing. You have absolutely no idea which picks (if any) Coughlin altered from Dave's big board. 

Let's not forget that they are BOTH responsible for the Bortles extension as well. 

I can appreciate a hypothesis that TC has positively influenced a few good personnel moves since he arrived, but there's no way to know what he's actually done in that regard. The official story is that there's always a consensus. We're not privy to the process beyond that.

You're putting Leonard Fournette, Will Richardson, Jawaan Taylor, and Minshew in the Coughlin column

Vs
Ramsey, Jack, Ngakoue, Linder, Lee, Joeckel, and Telvin Smith in the Caldwell column and declaring decisive victory for Coughlin? 

Anyway, I'm with NYC. Impossible to know what lies where between the two and frankly I see very little difference in the overall quality of the drafts. The biggest sin in my eyes was trying to salvage Bortles by masking him with Fournette and there's no way any of us can know how that decision was ultimately made.

Of course we don't know beyond a shadow of a doubt how the interplay between Caldwell and Coughlin works but do you really think Coughlin just sits in his office and eats sandwich's all day? A guy with his personality? That puts Coughlin in the role of a figure head which is absurd. What proof is there that TC would have agreed to that?  

"Is that going to be the focus? What else is there? What the hell would we be doing this for if not to win? We’re trying to win today. Who's going to get the better lunch? Let’s not have any misunderstanding about why we're here." - Tom Coughlin

I don't think Caldwell is completely out of the picture. I'd bet he still does a majority of the player evaluations and probably presents his case to Coughlin who has his own ideas and then they come to an agreement. If they can't come to an agreement TC most likely has the final say. The differences in the higher picks that where made before and after TC came on board are subtle to be sure. Coughlin's fingerprints become more evident in rounds 3 and below.

I think comparisons of Ramsey, Jack, Ngakoue, Lee, Joeckel and Smith to Fournette, Richardson, Taylor, and Minshew and don't forget Leon Jacobs and Ronnie Harrison are debatable. There's reasons to think the latter group is better top to bottom and there are better value picks there. Joeckel was a bust. Lee is reasonably talented but can't stay on the field. Ramsey is great but may not be here much longer. Ngakoue is a pretty good pass rusher and is a pretty good value for where we was picked but is not great against the run and Jack's a pretty good linebacker and I give props to Caldwell for making that pick when there were concerns about his knee.

---

I'm condescending. That means I talk down to you.

There is no indication he's taking any differing degree of "control." 
Dave does what he always did. TC signs off.  I'm sure Dave has presented player decisions that were altered, but there is no way of  knowing how many, or how a consensus was decided.

I think the indication of him taking more control is evident in the quality of the picks. You just have to look over the past 3 years and compare them with the previous years. There's no question he's having an influence on the selections being made.

Which guys do you identify as Coughlin piccks?

To me, only two guys have struck me as Coughlin picks-Fournette and Smoot.  I suspect Taven Bryan would be another possible TC pick, but again I'm not sure.

I believe TC has had a major influence on free agency signings, however.  Calais Campbell specifically cited TC as a big reason he signed here.  Relying on free agent signings has been part of TCs MO since he was first here.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Fournette is as hot and cold as players can get.  Still needs to prove a LOT to be remotely worthy of a #4 pick. 
 Taylor was just as much a "no brainer" as the others you don't want to credit Caldwell for since he fell so far.  Richardson is a work in progress. 

I find it very odd that so many folks feel so convicted in their assumptions and speculations about what exactly Caldwell and/or Coughlin are responsible for.  You guys are just guessing. You have absolutely no idea which picks (if any) Coughlin altered from Dave's big board. 

Let's not forget that they are BOTH responsible for the Bortles extension as well. 

I can appreciate a hypothesis that TC has positively influenced a few good personnel moves since he arrived, but there's no way to know what he's actually done in that regard. The official story is that there's always a consensus. We're not privy to the process beyond that.

You're putting Leonard Fournette, Will Richardson, Jawaan Taylor, and Minshew in the Coughlin column

Vs
Ramsey, Jack, Ngakoue, Linder, Lee, Joeckel, and Telvin Smith in the Caldwell column and declaring decisive victory for Coughlin? 

Anyway, I'm with NYC. Impossible to know what lies where between the two and frankly I see very little difference in the overall quality of the drafts. The biggest sin in my eyes was trying to salvage Bortles by masking him with Fournette and there's no way any of us can know how that decision was ultimately made.

Of course we don't know beyond a shadow of a doubt how the interplay between Caldwell and Coughlin works but do you really think Coughlin just sits in his office and eats sandwich's all day? A guy with his personality? That puts Coughlin in the role of a figure head which is absurd. What proof is there that TC would have agreed to that?  

"Is that going to be the focus? What else is there? What the hell would we be doing this for if not to win? We’re trying to win today. Who's going to get the better lunch? Let’s not have any misunderstanding about why we're here." - Tom Coughlin

I don't think Caldwell is completely out of the picture. I'd bet he still does a majority of the player evaluations and probably presents his case to Coughlin who has his own ideas and then they come to an agreement. If they can't come to an agreement TC most likely has the final say. The differences in the higher picks that where made before and after TC came on board are subtle to be sure. Coughlin's fingerprints become more evident in rounds 3 and below.
...

In the pressers around the first draft after Coughlin's arrival Caldwell was asked what his process was with Coughlin on board. 
He said he does exactly what he did prior to TC's arrival. He also said all final decisions were a consensus between himself, TC, sometimes ownership, and they often seek Marrone's opinion as well.

Regardless, I'm sure we can all agree that it's good to see productivity from these rookies right now however they were agreed upon. We'll need them to step up if we're to compete minus a few anticipated starters.

---

There is a tooooon of confirmation bias in this thread.  "I like TC more than Dave, so obviously TC has more influence on these good drafts."  Can we talk about how Fournette certainly seems more of TC's style than Dave's?  Are we going to ignore Ramsey/Jack/Ngakoue before TC arrived?  Taven (who's now beginning to look better) was definitely a Dave pick because we didn't like it?

Come on, guys. Dave is a quality GM.

Agreed generally and especially with the part in bold.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

So, pure speculation.

Maybe a little bit of speculation, but mostly extrapolation and some hard metrics based on where players were drafted and were they are now. Unless you subscribe to the thought that Caldwell suddenly got smart when TC came along. Possible I guess but that would be speculation.

Interesting.

Caldwell drafted Allen Robinson at the bottom of the 2nd round (61st overall) and he became a productive WR.

Somebody drafted D.J. Chark at the bottom of the 2nd round (61st overall) and is on his way to being a productive WR.

Caldwell drafted Yannick Ngakoue in the 3rd round (69th overall) and has been a productive DE.

Somebody drafted Dawuane Smoot in the 3rd round (68th overall) and has not been a productive DE (though has played better this year).

Now perhaps some of this is a function of the strengths of the teams at the time they were drafted, the comparative draft positions, and the relevant draft classes but I look at Caldwell's mid round picks, but I see guys like Linder, Telvin Smith and Ngakoue.  I look at TC's picks in the 3rd round and below over the years and I don't see the same degree of success.

1995

Round: 3
Pick in the round:  7
Overall pick:  71

Chris Hudson
DB
Colorado
 
Round:  4
Pick in the round: 1
Overall pick:  99
Rob Johnson
QB
USC
 
Round:  4
Pick in round:  25
Overall pick:  123
Mike Thompson
DT
Wisconsin
 
5
35
169
Ryan Christopherson
RB
Wyoming
 

6
1
172
Marcus Price
T
Louisiana State

6
37
208
Fred McCrary
RB
Mississippi State

7
11
219
Curtis Marsh

1996
3

2
63
Aaron Beasley
DB
West Virginia
 

4
15
110
Reggie Barlow
WR
Alabama State
 

5
14
146
Jimmy Herndon
G
Houston
 

6
3
170
John Fisher
DB
Missouri Western
 
7
6
18
185
Chris Doering
WR
Florida
 

7
18
227
Clarence Jones
WR
Tennessee State
 

7
19
228
Gregory Spann
WR
Jackson State


1997

3
19
79
James Hamilton
LB
North Carolina
 

4
18
114
Seth Payne
DT
Cornell
 

5
17
147
Damon Jones
TE
Southern Illinois
 

6
21
184
Daimon Shelton
RB
Sacramento State
 

7
20
221
Jon Hesse
LB
Nebraska


1998

3
25
86
Jonathan Quinn
QB
Middle Tennessee State
 

4
9
101
Tavian Banks
RB
Iowa
 

4
26
118
Harry Deligianis
DE
Youngstown State
 

5
25
148
John Wade
C
Marshall
 

6
26
179
Lamanzer Williams
DE
Minnesota
 

6
29
182
Kevin McLeod
RB
Auburn
 

7
3
192
Alvis Whitted
WR
North Carolina State
 

7
25
214
Brandon Tolbert
LB
Georgia


1999

3
27
88
Anthony Cesario
G
Colorado State
 

4
26
121
Kevin Landolt
DE
West Virginia
 

5
27
160
Jason Craft
DB
Colorado State
 

6
13
182
Emarlos Leroy
DT
Georgia
 

7
36
242
Dee Moronkola
DB
Washington State
 

7
40
246
Chris White
DT
Southern


2000

3

30
92
T.J. Slaughter
LB
Southern Mississippi
 

4
29
123
Joey Chustz
T
Louisiana Tech
 

5
30
159
Kiwaukee Thomas
DB
Georgia Southern
 

6
30
196
Emanuel Smith
WR
Arkansas
 
7
30
236
Erik Olson
DB
Colorado State
 

7
35
241
Rob Meier
DT
Washington State
 

7
37
243
Shyrone Stith
RB
Virginia Tech
 

7
39
245
Danny Clark
LB
Illinois
 

7
41
247
Mark Baniewicz
T
Syracuse


2001

3
11
73
Eric Westmoreland
LB
Tennessee
 
3
32
94
James Boyd
DB
Penn State
 

5
11
142
David Leaverton
P
Tennessee
 

6
7
170
Chad Ward
G
Washington
 

7
13
213
Anthony Denman
LB
Notre Dame
 

7
33
233
Marlon McCree
DB
Kentucky
 

7
35
235
Richmond Flowers
WR
Chattanooga
 

7
41
241
Randy Chevier
DT
McGill

2002

3

24
89
Akin Ayodele
LB
Purdue
 

4
10
108
David Garrard
QB
East Carolina
 

4
20
118
Chris Luzar
TE
Virginia
 

6
8
180
Clenton Ballard
DT
Southwest Texas State
 

7
11
222
Kendall Newson
WR
Middle Tennessee State
 

7
36
247
Steve Smith
DB
Oregon
 

7
37
248
Hayden Epstein
K
Michigan

drafthistory.com

I placed emphasis on the best players in those particular draft classes.

While most of those guys were decent to good role players, none of those guys were as good as the three I have identified from Caldwell's draft classes.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

I'm not even willing to put Fournette as a "Coughlin pick". I think Caldwell was more than happy to take a guy they hoped could shoulder the load on offense and allow them to hide and hopefully salvage Bortles.

---

I'm not even willing to put Fournette as a "Coughlin pick". I think Caldwell was more than happy to take a guy they hoped could shoulder the load on offense and allow them to hide and hopefully salvage Fournette.

The reason I would list him as a Coughlin pick is because:

1.  Fournette fits the historical paradigm of a TC running back.  He's always favored the bigger RB, whether James Stewart, Natrone Means, Curtis Enis (Yes...in 1998, he wasnted to trade up for Curtis Enis, but wasn't able to pull off the trade, so he stayed at 9 and took FT instead), FT, Stacey Mack, and Brandon Jacobs.

2.  It was his first year there and he likely wanted to put his stamp on the team.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

I think the indication of him taking more control is evident in the quality of the picks. You just have to look over the past 3 years and compare them with the previous years. There's no question he's having an influence on the selections being made.

Which guys do you identify as Coughlin piccks?

To me, only two guys have struck me as Coughlin picks-Fournette and Smoot.  I suspect Taven Bryan would be another possible TC pick, but again I'm not sure.

I believe TC has had a major influence on free agency signings, however.  Calais Campbell specifically cited TC as a big reason he signed here.  Relying on free agent signings has been part of TCs MO since he was first here.

If I had to guess I'd suspect DJ Chark might be a Coughlin influenced pick although Caldwell has picked taller more physical receivers too so it's a tough call.  Will Richardson and Leon Jacobs definitely. Jacobs is the big physical player whereas DC has seemed to prefer speedy more finesse style linebackers (Smith and Jack). I'd ordinarily identify Jawaan Taylor as a Coughlin style OL pick but anyone would have made that pick given where they picked him.

---

I'm condescending. That means I talk down to you.

I'm not even willing to put Fournette as a "Coughlin pick". I think Caldwell was more than happy to take a guy they hoped could shoulder the load on offense and allow them to hide and hopefully salvage Fournette.

The reason I would list him as a Coughlin pick is because:

1.  Fournette fits the historical paradigm of a TC running back.  He's always favored the bigger RB, whether James Stewart, Natrone Means, Curtis Enis (Yes...in 1998, he wasnted to trade up for Curtis Enis, but wasn't able to pull off the trade, so he stayed at 9 and took FT instead), FT, Stacey Mack, and Brandon Jacobs.

2.  It was his first year there and he likely wanted to put his stamp on the team.

What exactly do you mean by "Coughlin pick?"  Do you think these guys say, "I'm taking this one, I'll give you the next one?"  

I am pretty sure what happens is, they have long meetings about the direction of the team and how to fill spots with free agents and draft picks.  They decide on an overall strategy for team building.  They look at available free agents and draft picks.  And they fit their free agents and draft picks into this overall strategy.  They discuss the possible draft picks endlessly and they probably almost always come to an agreement about what course to take.  

There's no way for us to tell whose choice was whose.  Because it doesn't work like that. 

There's a lot of undeserved negativity floating around on this message board, with people trying to make a case that this guy or that guy should be fired.  So they try to figure out a way to blame the "bad picks" on one guy or the other.  

It's a universal characteristic that people, especially people posting on football message boards, are guilty of simplistic thinking.  They're always  trying to boil everything down to some sort of "solution."  It's not that simple.  And in this case, it's not so simple that you can say one guy was a "Coughlin pick" and another guy was a "Caldwell pick."  It just doesn't work that way.

---

I'm not even willing to put Fournette as a "Coughlin pick". I think Caldwell was more than happy to take a guy they hoped could shoulder the load on offense and allow them to hide and hopefully salvage Fournette.

The reason I would list him as a Coughlin pick is because:

1.  Fournette fits the historical paradigm of a TC running back.  He's always favored the bigger RB, whether James Stewart, Natrone Means, Curtis Enis (Yes...in 1998, he wasnted to trade up for Curtis Enis, but wasn't able to pull off the trade, so he stayed at 9 and took FT instead), FT, Stacey Mack, and Brandon Jacobs.

2.  It was his first year there and he likely wanted to put his stamp on the team.

I think he was probably tops on the board for both of them. I have a hard time believing that, especially with the higher picks, there has been a time where either one had significantly differing opinions on who we took.

---

Maybe a little bit of speculation, but mostly extrapolation and some hard metrics based on where players were drafted and were they are now. Unless you subscribe to the thought that Caldwell suddenly got smart when TC came along. Possible I guess but that would be speculation.

Interesting.

Caldwell drafted Allen Robinson at the bottom of the 2nd round (61st overall) and he became a productive WR.

Somebody drafted D.J. Chark at the bottom of the 2nd round (61st overall) and is on his way to being a productive WR.

Caldwell drafted Yannick Ngakoue in the 3rd round (69th overall) and has been a productive DE.

Somebody drafted Dawuane Smoot in the 3rd round (68th overall) and has not been a productive DE (though has played better this year).

Now perhaps some of this is a function of the strengths of the teams at the time they were drafted, the comparative draft positions, and the relevant draft classes but I look at Caldwell's mid round picks, but I see guys like Linder, Telvin Smith and Ngakoue.  I look at TC's picks in the 3rd round and below over the years and I don't see the same degree of success.

[snip]

drafthistory.com

I placed emphasis on the best players in those particular draft classes.

While most of those guys were decent to good role players, none of those guys were as good as the three I have identified from Caldwell's draft classes.

Linder, Smith (although he's evidently retired now) and Ngakoue are Caldwell's highlights. No GM is going to hit every time or miss every time.

Of the players you identified as the best, I'd say these guys were all great value picks:

Aaron Beasley
Seth Payne
Tavian Banks
John Wade
T.J. Slaughter
Rob Meier
David Garrard

All were multi-year starters, some for multiple teams with the exception of Banks who's career was cut short but certainly could have been an earlier version of Corey Grant.

---

I'm condescending. That means I talk down to you.

The reason I would list him as a Coughlin pick is because:

1.  Fournette fits the historical paradigm of a TC running back.  He's always favored the bigger RB, whether James Stewart, Natrone Means, Curtis Enis (Yes...in 1998, he wasnted to trade up for Curtis Enis, but wasn't able to pull off the trade, so he stayed at 9 and took FT instead), FT, Stacey Mack, and Brandon Jacobs.

2.  It was his first year there and he likely wanted to put his stamp on the team.

What exactly do you mean by "Coughlin pick?"  Do you think these guys say, "I'm taking this one, I'll give you the next one?"  

I am pretty sure what happens is, they have long meetings about the direction of the team and how to fill spots with free agents and draft picks.  They decide on an overall strategy for team building.  They look at available free agents and draft picks.  And they fit their free agents and draft picks into this overall strategy.  They discuss the possible draft picks endlessly and they probably almost always come to an agreement about what course to take.  

There's no way for us to tell whose choice was whose.  Because it doesn't work like that. 

There's a lot of undeserved negativity floating around on this message board, with people trying to make a case that this guy or that guy should be fired.  So they try to figure out a way to blame the "bad picks" on one guy or the other.  

It's a universal characteristic that people, especially people posting on football message boards, are guilty of simplistic thinking.  They're always  trying to boil everything down to some sort of "solution."  It's not that simple.  And in this case, it's not so simple that you can say one guy was a "Coughlin pick" and another guy was a "Caldwell pick."  It just doesn't work that way.

A fair point.

I believe a "Coughlin pick" is one that is Coughlin influenced, or a player that TC favors over DC's recommendation.  While I don't pretend to know exactly what TC is thinking on a given pick, nor do I have any first hand knowledge of the inner workings of the FO, I think I have a decent (not absolute...not perfect) feel for how he thinks on some personnel matters for a mere message board poster.  I identified his preference for larger backs soon after he was hired and months before the draft.   They drafted Fournette.  https://www.duvalpride.com/showthread.ph...#pid940894  I pointed out TC generally does not draft TE in the first round.  Even though TE was a popular choice among Jaguars fans in first round of the past two drafts, I maintained based on TCs history, he would not take a TE in the first round.  The team was in position to take a TE in the first round the last two years and didn't do it.  I don't believe I have really advocated either TC or DC be fired unless some very narrow conditions are met, and that point was limited to one thread.  Usually, when people are clamoring for a particular individual to be fired, I am among those urging restraint.


I believe they aim for a consensus at a given pick.  If they disagree on a pick, I think it defaults to TC.  Both have had good and bad picks.  Both have strengths and weaknesses.

It is my belief that DC is a better drafterm especially in the mid to late rounds.  I think TC is better at identifying free agents.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

You guys are wasting a lot of energy on something that doesn’t matter.
Just win baby.

---

You guys are wasting a lot of energy on something that doesn’t matter.
Just win baby.

What?!??!?

You say that as if we have no pull whatsoever with the FO in personnel issues.

We all know they read this board for difficult decisions!  

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Fournette is as hot and cold as players can get.  Still needs to prove a LOT to be remotely worthy of a #4 pick. 
 Taylor was just as much a "no brainer" as the others you don't want to credit Caldwell for since he fell so far.  Richardson is a work in progress. 

I find it very odd that so many folks feel so convicted in their assumptions and speculations about what exactly Caldwell and/or Coughlin are responsible for.  You guys are just guessing. You have absolutely no idea which picks (if any) Coughlin altered from Dave's big board. 

Let's not forget that they are BOTH responsible for the Bortles extension as well. 

I can appreciate a hypothesis that TC has positively influenced a few good personnel moves since he arrived, but there's no way to know what he's actually done in that regard. The official story is that there's always a consensus. We're not privy to the process beyond that.

You're putting Leonard Fournette, Will Richardson, Jawaan Taylor, and Minshew in the Coughlin column

Vs
Ramsey, Jack, Ngakoue, Linder, Lee, Joeckel, and Telvin Smith in the Caldwell column and declaring decisive victory for Coughlin? 

Anyway, I'm with NYC. Impossible to know what lies where between the two and frankly I see very little difference in the overall quality of the drafts. The biggest sin in my eyes was trying to salvage Bortles by masking him with Fournette and there's no way any of us can know how that decision was ultimately made.

Of course we don't know beyond a shadow of a doubt how the interplay between Caldwell and Coughlin works but do you really think Coughlin just sits in his office and eats sandwich's all day? A guy with his personality? That puts Coughlin in the role of a figure head which is absurd. What proof is there that TC would have agreed to that?  

"Is that going to be the focus? What else is there? What the hell would we be doing this for if not to win? We’re trying to win today. Who's going to get the better lunch? Let’s not have any misunderstanding about why we're here." - Tom Coughlin

I don't think Caldwell is completely out of the picture. I'd bet he still does a majority of the player evaluations and probably presents his case to Coughlin who has his own ideas and then they come to an agreement. If they can't come to an agreement TC most likely has the final say. The differences in the higher picks that where made before and after TC came on board are subtle to be sure. Coughlin's fingerprints become more evident in rounds 3 and below.

I think comparisons of Ramsey, Jack, Ngakoue, Lee, Joeckel and Smith to Fournette, Richardson, Taylor, and Minshew and don't forget Leon Jacobs and Ronnie Harrison are debatable. There's reasons to think the latter group is better top to bottom and there are better value picks there. Joeckel was a bust. Lee is reasonably talented but can't stay on the field. Ramsey is great but may not be here much longer. Ngakoue is a pretty good pass rusher and is a pretty good value for where we was picked but is not great against the run and Jack's a pretty good linebacker and I give props to Caldwell for making that pick when there were concerns about his knee.

Well yeah, this is the point. There is no proof or formal outline that we have any access too. That's why all this Coughlin pick vs Caldwell pick is nonsense. 

But even if you did separate Pre-Coughlin vs Post-Coughlin I find it extremely hard to say the drafts were markedly improved whatsoever. In fact, if I were to list them I'd go best to worst with:

2016
2019
2014
2018
2017
2015
2013 

Hardly any compelling pattern there.

---

You guys are wasting a lot of energy on something that doesn’t matter.
Just win baby.

What?!??!?

You say that as if we have no pull whatsoever with the FO in personnel issues.

We all know they read this board for difficult decisions!  

I mean, how is Khan going to know who to fire if we don't work it all out for him in this derailed thread? 

We're doing important work here. 

---

What?!??!?

You say that as if we have no pull whatsoever with the FO in personnel issues.

We all know they read this board for difficult decisions!  

I mean, how is Khan going to know who to fire if we don't work it all out for him in this derailed thread? 

We're doing important work here. 

Pay attention, boys and girls.

This is what's known as proper perspective!

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

I mean, how is Khan going to know who to fire if we don't work it all out for him in this derailed thread? 

We're doing important work here. 

Pay attention, boys and girls.

This is what's known as proper perspective!

Fans talk about the team and franchise. That's what they do.

---

I'm condescending. That means I talk down to you.