Speaking of... 

“It’s a little bit tighter than outside zone. The back can take an angle and he reads the first guy,” Van Roten explained. “If they over-pursue, which Jacksonville does, there is a big, fact cutback lane.”

https://www.panthers.com/news/they-could...shred-jags

Makes you wonder if it’s been the same story in past games, just the Panthers don’t mind sharing their info since they are not playing us again....

Why old we adjust at some point? Jesus! Always seems like the Jags are always suckered by something or another.

If my extremely untrained eye can see it from my couch in California I'm sure it's no secret 

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Thread title: What has happened to our once vaunted defense?

Do you remember back in '17 we had a MLB named Paul Posluszny? A guy who was always filling the correct hole and making the tackle? Remember that guy?

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https://twitter.com/NextGenStats/status/...90720?s=19

That's an interesting view.  It appears Myles Jack was moving to cover the TE.  It also appears that Josh Allen moved toward the TE.  Ronnie Harrison and Quincy Williams both moved forward and to their right, leaving at least one of them out of position.  When Campbell and Darius both failed to make the play, it's clear sailing for McCaffrey.

It makes you wonder, what are the assignments on this play?  If everyone is playing their assignment, it's on the coaches.

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10/1/2017 we gave up 256 yards to the NY Jets so that team wasn't immune to this kind of stuff either.

There's a common denominator from then until now.  His name is _________  __________  

I don't really like to get into discussions about coordinators and coaches because they did something to be where they are, so I try to stay away from bashing them.  But a change is needed somewhere.

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Truth is ……

we never had a vaunted defense. 2017 we had a close to great defense that had gaudy stats in some games. Remember they were gashed in the run game as well. We still have a good defense that makes too many mistakes. Maybe all of this help with humility and let them work harder. I was heavy in the Poz is an issue camp and now we know they have a history of missed fits and problems that weren't on him. This defense is plenty capable. So like many things I was wrong about Poz in 2017.

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The Khan Years

Patience, Persistence, and Piss Poor General Managers.

what happened? THEY SUCK, lol.. the Panthers ran the same play over and over again and got burned by the ONE player they knew they had to stop. They suck, the D coach sucks, Ramsey SUCKS... yep, they suck...

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"If you always do what you've always done, You'll always get what you always got"

As a coach I would be outright embarrassed if the opposing team said this. That’s some Pop Warner level stuff here. How can you not adjust to the same play run over and over again?

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"Before you criticize a man, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, if he gets angry, he's a mile away and barefoot."

They ran the same play over and over lol. What's it got to take to fire these bums?

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what happened? THEY SUCK, lol.. the Panthers ran the same play over and over again and got burned by the ONE player they knew they had to stop. They suck, the D coach sucks, Ramsey SUCKS...  yep, they suck...

BOYCOOOOOOT

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Todd Wash

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Well, since Darius has said they were out-schemed against the Panthers, I would hope they have a defensive team meeting with the coaches, where the coaches explain the scheme, what the players were supposed to do, and most importantly, how the players were supposed to know what they were supposed to do.  Because if the players cannot understand the scheme, or if the scheme is too difficult, then they have to come up with a new scheme.

I know we play a "gap-control" defense, where all the players have to cover their gap, or else it's a disaster, but what I would like to know is, how easy is it for the opposing team to lure players out of their gaps?   Because Myles Jack has said that it was at least partially his fault on McCaffrey's long TD run, but from what I saw, Jack was moving to cover the TE.  Is motioning the TE and having him run behind the LOS post-snap all it takes to lure Jack out of his gap?  Was he supposed to cover the TE?  Why did he go with the TE on that play?  

I'm a little baffled by this defense that, according to the coaches, requires perfect gap control, when it appears that the Panthers so easily lured our defenders out of their gaps.

AND, if the supposedly great players on our defense cannot stay in their gaps, are there any second stringers who CAN stay in their gaps?

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Well, since Darius has said they were out-schemed against the Panthers, I would hope they have a defensive team meeting with the coaches, where the coaches explain the scheme, what the players were supposed to do, and most importantly, how the players were supposed to know what they were supposed to do.  Because if the players cannot understand the scheme, or if the scheme is too difficult, then they have to come up with a new scheme.

I know we play a "gap-control" defense, where all the players have to cover their gap, or else it's a disaster, but what I would like to know is, how easy is it for the opposing team to lure players out of their gaps?   Because Myles Jack has said that it was at least partially his fault on McCaffrey's long TD run, but from what I saw, Jack was moving to cover the TE.  Is motioning the TE and having him run behind the LOS post-snap all it takes to lure Jack out of his gap?  Was he supposed to cover the TE?  Why did he go with the TE on that play?  

I'm a little baffled by this defense that, according to the coaches, requires perfect gap control, when it appears that the Panthers so easily lured our defenders out of their gaps.

DTs and LBs are being fooled easily by misdirection and pre-snap motion and losing gap integrity. 


Wash and the players must share the blame unfortunately.  Wash is being out maneuvered at times by opposing OCs but the players are definitely caught out of position and over pursuing too often.

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Well, since Darius has said they were out-schemed against the Panthers, I would hope they have a defensive team meeting with the coaches, where the coaches explain the scheme, what the players were supposed to do, and most importantly, how the players were supposed to know what they were supposed to do.  Because if the players cannot understand the scheme, or if the scheme is too difficult, then they have to come up with a new scheme.

I know we play a "gap-control" defense, where all the players have to cover their gap, or else it's a disaster, but what I would like to know is, how easy is it for the opposing team to lure players out of their gaps?   Because Myles Jack has said that it was at least partially his fault on McCaffrey's long TD run, but from what I saw, Jack was moving to cover the TE.  Is motioning the TE and having him run behind the LOS post-snap all it takes to lure Jack out of his gap?  Was he supposed to cover the TE?  Why did he go with the TE on that play?  

I'm a little baffled by this defense that, according to the coaches, requires perfect gap control, when it appears that the Panthers so easily lured our defenders out of their gaps.

DTs and LBs are being fooled easily by misdirection and pre-snap motion and losing gap integrity. 


Wash and the players must share the blame unfortunately.  Wash is being out maneuvered at times by opposing OCs but the players are definitely caught out of position and over pursuing too often.

2 weeks in a row the first play the D has faced, the commentators have made a point of saying how they bootleg or use cutbacks to use our speed against us. 

With the Jack play, he said it was a run play and McCaffrey hole was his gap but as the TE motioned, he played the TE as well in case of a PA. Too much thinking, trying to cover everything. Just do your job and play fast.

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DTs and LBs are being fooled easily by misdirection and pre-snap motion and losing gap integrity. 


Wash and the players must share the blame unfortunately.  Wash is being out maneuvered at times by opposing OCs but the players are definitely caught out of position and over pursuing too often.

2 weeks in a row the first play the D has faced, the commentators have made a point of saying how they bootleg or use cutbacks to use our speed against us. 

With the Jack play, he said it was a run play and McCaffrey hole was his gap but as the TE motioned, he played the TE as well in case of a PA. Too much thinking, trying to cover everything. Just do your job and play fast.

Are you suggesting he should not cover the TE?  Who should cover the TE on that play?  He was the LB closest to that side of the field. 

You say, "Do your job..." but what was his job?  That's what I'd like to know.  Why did he move toward the TE?

If the Panthers knew that motioning the TE toward that side if the field would cause Jack to think he had to cover the TE, then I guess Darius was right and they pencil-whipped us.

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2 weeks in a row the first play the D has faced, the commentators have made a point of saying how they bootleg or use cutbacks to use our speed against us. 

With the Jack play, he said it was a run play and McCaffrey hole was his gap but as the TE motioned, he played the TE as well in case of a PA. Too much thinking, trying to cover everything. Just do your job and play fast.

Are you suggesting he should not cover the TE?  Who should cover the TE on that play?  He was the LB closest to that side of the field. 

You say, "Do your job..." but what was his job?  That's what I'd like to know.  Why did he move toward the TE?

If the Panthers knew that motioning the TE toward that side if the field would cause Jack to think he had to cover the TE, then I guess Darius was right and they pencil-whipped us.

The D was playing the run. Jack's meant to be hitting that enormous hole that McCaffrey run through.

It seemed once the TE motions, Jack tries to play the run and pass coverage on the TE. You cant do both. One has you running to the flat, the other is rushing the line so he ends up in nowhere land trying to do both and McCaffreys gone. If your assignment is run, you play run and if the TE goes 70 yards untouched it's on the OC. Guys just cant go freelancing.

I just think the players are overthinking stuff, trying to cover any and all possibilities. You just cant do that. Now is that because they dont trust/like the system. I have no idea.

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https://twitter.com/NextGenStats/status/...90720?s=19

That's an interesting view.  It appears Myles Jack was moving to cover the TE.  It also appears that Josh Allen moved toward the TE.  Ronnie Harrison and Quincy Williams both moved forward and to their right, leaving at least one of them out of position.  When Campbell and Darius both failed to make the play, it's clear sailing for McCaffrey.

It makes you wonder, what are the assignments on this play?  If everyone is playing their assignment, it's on the coaches.

Jack was covering the TE, Josh Allen had Contain to that side (the TE just happened to be there, his responsibility was to keep the run from getting outside), Quincy had McCaffrey .. he overpursued thinking it was outside zone (this play is middle zone, the play the Panthers said they called a record number of times bc we couldn't stop it) Quincy gets out of his gap (starting to understand his benching last sunday, he's FAST but his overzealousness as a rookie was clearly targeted and punished by the Panthers all day) and McCaffrey cuts back into that gap and runs to daylight.

The thing that's most concerning is the safeties ... it's obvious what they're doing every play; Wilson had the deep right half to prevent us being beaten over the top, and Harrison was brought down to the line of scrimmage to help with the run and cover the flat if they went pass.

Also of concern in Calais lining up inside as a 3-technique on 2nd and 10; like I love Calais, he's an absolute ANIMAL, but besides a 3rd down/obvious passing situation he's a little underweight at 290-300 to be scrapping with guards, also becaue of his height (which is a huge advantage on the edge) he's at a disadvantage leverage wise playing inside. & on a down when the run is still an option .. it can be punished. I think he's kicked inside bc Allen has been playing SO WELL that they're just trying to find a way to get him on the field.

If Jake Ryan returns I think we should run a 3-4 ... Hear me out: Calais-Dareus-Bryan as a LDE-NT-RDE; Josh Allen-Jake Ryan-Myles Jack-Ngakoue as LOLB-LILB-RILB-ROLB ... we have some wrinkles of this but it's honestly the best base set that gets our best players on the field, utilizes all of our talent in the front 7, and doesn't put any player in a spot where they're "out of position" and can be punished (with Capers in the building who's a 3-4 expert, I think some of the growing pains can be mitigated) & for Nickel we can switch to a 4-2-5 that we're running now with Jack & Quincy at LB and Ngakoue & Allen just go back to having their hand in the dirt.

Final Note: I want to see a version of Caper's "Pyscho Defense" from the Packers SB year: 1-5-5 essentially. Calais on the line, Allen-Jake Ryan-Myles Jack-Quincy-Ngakoue for the LB's that are shifting around in the "Pyscho fashion" and Ramsey-Bouye-Hayden-Wilson-Harrison as the DB's ... I think it would be incredibly effective with the athleticism & speed we have on this defense.

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Championship Formula:

1) Draft Trevor Lawrence!
2) Play good physical Defense! 
3) Keep 91% of the roster healthy!
4) ???
5) Blank #2
6) CHAMPIONSHIP!!!

2 weeks in a row the first play the D has faced, the commentators have made a point of saying how they bootleg or use cutbacks to use our speed against us. 

With the Jack play, he said it was a run play and McCaffrey hole was his gap but as the TE motioned, he played the TE as well in case of a PA. Too much thinking, trying to cover everything. Just do your job and play fast.

Are you suggesting he should not cover the TE?  Who should cover the TE on that play?  He was the LB closest to that side of the field. 

You say, "Do your job..." but what was his job?  That's what I'd like to know.  Why did he move toward the TE?

If the Panthers knew that motioning the TE toward that side if the field would cause Jack to think he had to cover the TE, then I guess Darius was right and they pencil-whipped us.

That was 56's gap. 56 overpursued into the safeties gap and got sealed off by the guard.
Myles is covering for 56 and I appreciate his leadership on that. Myles shouldve better recognized the run and come off the TE, but thats a tough ask.

It looks like a cover 3.

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That's an interesting view.  It appears Myles Jack was moving to cover the TE.  It also appears that Josh Allen moved toward the TE.  Ronnie Harrison and Quincy Williams both moved forward and to their right, leaving at least one of them out of position.  When Campbell and Darius both failed to make the play, it's clear sailing for McCaffrey.

It makes you wonder, what are the assignments on this play?  If everyone is playing their assignment, it's on the coaches.

Jack was covering the TE, Josh Allen had Contain to that side (the TE just happened to be there, his responsibility was to keep the run from getting outside), Quincy had McCaffrey .. he overpursued thinking it was outside zone (this play is middle zone, the play the Panthers said they called a record number of times bc we couldn't stop it) Quincy gets out of his gap (starting to understand his benching last sunday, he's FAST but his overzealousness as a rookie was clearly targeted and punished by the Panthers all day) and McCaffrey cuts back into that gap and runs to daylight.

The thing that's most concerning is the safeties ... it's obvious what they're doing every play; Wilson had the deep right half to prevent us being beaten over the top, and Harrison was brought down to the line of scrimmage to help with the run and cover the flat if they went pass.

Also of concern in Calais lining up inside as a 3-technique on 2nd and 10; like I love Calais, he's an absolute ANIMAL, but besides a 3rd down/obvious passing situation he's a little underweight at 290-300 to be scrapping with guards, also becaue of his height (which is a huge advantage on the edge) he's at a disadvantage leverage wise playing inside. & on a down when the run is still an option .. it can be punished. I think he's kicked inside bc Allen has been playing SO WELL that they're just trying to find a way to get him on the field.

If Jake Ryan returns I think we should run a 3-4 ... Hear me out: Calais-Dareus-Bryan as a LDE-NT-RDE; Josh Allen-Jake Ryan-Myles Jack-Ngakoue as LOLB-LILB-RILB-ROLB ... we have some wrinkles of this but it's honestly the best base set that gets our best players on the field, utilizes all of our talent in the front 7, and doesn't put any player in a spot where they're "out of position" and can be punished (with Capers in the building who's a 3-4 expert, I think some of the growing pains can be mitigated) & for Nickel we can switch to a 4-2-5 that we're running now with Jack & Quincy at LB and Ngakoue & Allen just go back to having their hand in the dirt.

Final Note: I want to see a version of Caper's "Pyscho Defense" from the Packers SB year: 1-5-5 essentially. Calais on the line, Allen-Jake Ryan-Myles Jack-Quincy-Ngakoue for the LB's that are shifting around in the "Pyscho fashion" and Ramsey-Bouye-Hayden-Wilson-Harrison as the DB's ... I think it would be incredibly effective with the athleticism & speed we have on this defense.

Spot on with the play analysis
Would definitely like to see more formation diversity, but that cant happen until the safeties and linebackers are on the same page

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We had a few of very sensitive FSU quitters on defense.  Good for a few years but can't handle long term discipline.

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That's an interesting view.  It appears Myles Jack was moving to cover the TE.  It also appears that Josh Allen moved toward the TE.  Ronnie Harrison and Quincy Williams both moved forward and to their right, leaving at least one of them out of position.  When Campbell and Darius both failed to make the play, it's clear sailing for McCaffrey.

It makes you wonder, what are the assignments on this play?  If everyone is playing their assignment, it's on the coaches.

Jack was covering the TE, Josh Allen had Contain to that side (the TE just happened to be there, his responsibility was to keep the run from getting outside), Quincy had McCaffrey .. he overpursued thinking it was outside zone (this play is middle zone, the play the Panthers said they called a record number of times bc we couldn't stop it) Quincy gets out of his gap (starting to understand his benching last sunday, he's FAST but his overzealousness as a rookie was clearly targeted and punished by the Panthers all day) and McCaffrey cuts back into that gap and runs to daylight.

The thing that's most concerning is the safeties ... it's obvious what they're doing every play; Wilson had the deep right half to prevent us being beaten over the top, and Harrison was brought down to the line of scrimmage to help with the run and cover the flat if they went pass.

Also of concern in Calais lining up inside as a 3-technique on 2nd and 10; like I love Calais, he's an absolute ANIMAL, but besides a 3rd down/obvious passing situation he's a little underweight at 290-300 to be scrapping with guards, also becaue of his height (which is a huge advantage on the edge) he's at a disadvantage leverage wise playing inside. & on a down when the run is still an option .. it can be punished. I think he's kicked inside bc Allen has been playing SO WELL that they're just trying to find a way to get him on the field.

Good.  Thanks.  That makes sense.

If all that is true, should we start Najee Goode instead of Quincy Williams?

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Good.  Thanks.  That makes sense.

If all that is true, should we start Najee Goode instead of Quincy Williams?

We watched Telvin Smith make the same mistakes early on. Its growing pains of the NFL. All the aggression needs to be focused in.
Just got to make sure he learns from it

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