My only issue with this is we have sucked for years, even if we are not in a win now mode our front office had pretty much always made terrible decisions. Would you rather have year like 2017 when almost go to the Super bowl and then a couple years down or just consistently be 5-11, 6-10?  I think our fans and ownership need a change in mentality.

Also outside of the Patriots, what team do you feel has a formula that we should follow. I feel like alot of teams are up and down. The Ravens take risk and look where they are now. They blew a lot of money with Flacco after they won a super bowl a very strong defense, similar to our 2017 team, they had a few down years and are back because they took a risk on Lamar Jackson, when we wasted our pick on a experimental DT Taven Bryan, similar to how we wasted a pick on Alualu in the first round some years back.

I think being in a win now allows the team to pick players the will immediately help the team rather than experimental picks hoping they pan out. It also gives the fanbase hope. We like to go into seasons thinking we have a chance to win the super bowl. That is goal for every franchise.

I ask you ..did you enjoy our 2017 season better than any other season we had in the last 10 years? I def did and if we can have more of those, I think it will get us away from moving to London.

No, I hated every moment of it, as I'm sure many other jags fans also did. Winning sucks.

Of course everyone enjoys winning seasons more than losing seasons. The question is; which approach to team building gives this team the chance to consistently have winning seasons over the next 10 years?

You also assume that 2017's success was due to the team adopting a win-now approach, when in reality it was a culmination of years of team building which was always designed to eventually be reinforced by high-priced free agency. Undoubtedly Coughlin's arrival and win-lunch mindset lit a bit of a fire under this franchise, so in a way it did work.

Drafting Fournette at 4, over Mahomes and Watson, is a prime example of the win-now mindset. And in 2017, it kind of seemed like it might have been the best decision because we had immediate success. How does that decision look now? That is exactly the kind of decision I want this team to avoid this off-season.

I'm not even trying to be funny, just saying that I would take a "win now" season where we make big moves and signing to make it very deep in the playoffs and be down for 2 years to let some of the contracts die out over our of "smart" free agent signing and draft picks and consistently pick in the top 10 of the draft every year.

Not picking Mahomes and Watson in that draft did seem ok because of what it got us that year. 4nette helped us more than anyone thought he would. Bortles was decent the year before that, at one point we all thought we had our franchise qb but he regressed so we missed out on those 2 but we had the chance to make up by taking a risk on Lamar Jackson because there was some doubt with Bortles during the 2017 season, even though he stepped up big in the playoffs. 

If we would have took Lamar Jackson instead of Taven Bryan, all would be forgiven because there is no question of the difference in impact between Lamar and Taven. There could be a debate between the impact that 4nette gave us compared to what Watson and Mahomes were doing for our 2017 season. Even though it may look crazy now with how they are playing but 4nette is still giving us production.

I say that to say, its not the "win now" mindset, it is the front office making terrible decisions that has put this team in the position we are in now.

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We've had so many "Win Now" seasons in which we finished in the bottom 10 that I don't even pay attention to any off-season communication.

Pretty much how I felt seeing that video when it was posted ........haven't bothered watching and hearing
a bunch of "Baloney".
How we draft, FA signing and how the FO goes about their business will tell the tale.

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Because Jaguars is our mantra 

"Win now" means you pass on someone like Tua in favor of a Derrick Brown or Isaiah Simmons. Sorta like how we passed on Mahomes to draft Fournette. It's a bad strategy for long-term success. If you take care of the future the present takes care of itself. The converse does not always apply.

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2017 was great. What killed team support was how far we swung the other way with mostly the same players. How do you go from hero to zero in one year flat? It’s confusing and frustrating - like we’ve always been. Here we thought we had finally turned the corner, but it was into a blind alley. A little less success the following year would have been acceptable. Instead, we absolutely cratered.

But it was the front office. Did we not have enough money to resign, Poz, Mercedes Lewis and ARob? I believe that was the reason why the turn was so drastic, we lost of offensive and defensive leaders, which kind of allowed chaos. But was is the fact that we could not afford them or was it our Front office thinking they could do without those players. Really pay attention to that? I think we really overlook that. Smith cried when Poz retired and you could tell how players looked up to Mercerdez and how vocal he was. 

Also just point out to me who we couldn't keep based on salary from the 2017 team?

You're right. No arguments from me. Letting Poz go was the single biggest mistake. He kept the D running as a solid unit. He even stated that he wanted to play for just one more year, which I'm sure we could have gotten at discount, and yet they still let him go.

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But it was the front office. Did we not have enough money to resign, Poz, Mercedes Lewis and ARob? I believe that was the reason why the turn was so drastic, we lost of offensive and defensive leaders, which kind of allowed chaos. But was is the fact that we could not afford them or was it our Front office thinking they could do without those players. Really pay attention to that? I think we really overlook that. Smith cried when Poz retired and you could tell how players looked up to Mercerdez and how vocal he was. 

Also just point out to me who we couldn't keep based on salary from the 2017 team?

You're right. No arguments from me. Letting Poz go was the single biggest mistake. He kept the D running as a solid unit. He even stated that he wanted to play for just one more year, which I'm sure we could have gotten at discount, and yet they still let him go.

While I was fully on board with tagging A-Rob, he and his agent ended negotiations with the Jags prior to the season when he was injured, and Robinson later stated he decided he preferred to play somewhere with better staff stability. 
Poz RETIRED. That wasn't about money. 

Marcedes wasn't doing much good here IMO, but his experience/leadership may have had some value. 
I don't see the loss of any of those guys as especially impactful except for Poz's impact vs the run game and there was nothing to be done about him opting to retire when he felt himself losing a step.  And everyone here seemed to agree he was no longer a three down linebacker at the time.

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You're right. No arguments from me. Letting Poz go was the single biggest mistake. He kept the D running as a solid unit. He even stated that he wanted to play for just one more year, which I'm sure we could have gotten at discount, and yet they still let him go.

While I was fully on board with tagging A-Rob, he and his agent ended negotiations with the Jags prior to the season when he was injured, and Robinson later stated he decided he preferred to play somewhere with better staff stability. 
Poz RETIRED. That wasn't about money. 

Marcedes wasn't doing much good here IMO, but his experience/leadership may have had some value. 
I don't see the loss of any of those guys as especially impactful except for Poz's impact vs the run game and there was nothing to be done about him opting to retire when he felt himself losing a step.  And everyone here seemed to agree he was no longer a three down linebacker at the time.

I guess we all have to get our facts right, because look at the bolded above, he wanted to play one more year, some time it is not about the production on the field. I'm talking about the leadership aspect. Poz was getting less reps, that is cool but to have him as the locker room guy and pretty much as a coach on the field for leadership, work ethic and how to be professional which could have probably kept things from getting how they were. Last 2 year we were very undisciplined 

Same thing with Mercedes it was the leadership aspect of it. The players have people to model after, did you not watch the pride and dedication that Lewis had on his interviews, being one of the only Jaguars to be there from when were in the playoffs in 2008 to going on a drought to finally being good again. All that stuff is needed for young players.

Again, I think we all need to come to an agreement because with ARob in another thread and the older articles I have read, it said Robinson wanted be here but when couldn't come to an agreement he they figure he would try somewhere else. If he wanted to leave cool but I dont understand why he want to being the number 1 WR on a team that just almost made it to the Super Bowl

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While I was fully on board with tagging A-Rob, he and his agent ended negotiations with the Jags prior to the season when he was injured, and Robinson later stated he decided he preferred to play somewhere with better staff stability. 
Poz RETIRED. That wasn't about money. 

Marcedes wasn't doing much good here IMO, but his experience/leadership may have had some value. 
I don't see the loss of any of those guys as especially impactful except for Poz's impact vs the run game and there was nothing to be done about him opting to retire when he felt himself losing a step.  And everyone here seemed to agree he was no longer a three down linebacker at the time.

I guess we all have to get our facts right, because look at the bolded above, he wanted to play one more year, some time it is not about the production on the field. I'm talking about the leadership aspect. Poz was getting less reps, that is cool but to have him as the locker room guy and pretty much as a coach on the field for leadership, work ethic and how to be professional which could have probably kept things from getting how they were. Last 2 year we were very undisciplined 

Same thing with Mercedes it was the leadership aspect of it. The players have people to model after, did you not watch the pride and dedication that Lewis had on his interviews, being one of the only Jaguars to be there from when were in the playoffs in 2008 to going on a drought to finally being good again. All that stuff is needed for young players.

Again, I think we all need to come to an agreement because with ARob in another thread and the older articles I have read, it said Robinson wanted be here but when couldn't come to an agreement he they figure he would try somewhere else. If he wanted to leave cool but I dont understand why he want to being the number 1 WR on a team that just almost made it to the Super Bowl

A-Rob flatly stated that he decided a change was needed after playing for three different OC's in Jax. 
I've quoted the article here a half dozen times now and that's what I'm going with.  Others believe he was low-balled by our F.O. based on comments he made in another article.
I still would have tagged him if I were Dave Caldwell regardless of which take is more accurate.

I absolutely agree the horrible lack of discipline (positionally and otherwise) was a major factor in the losses in 2018 and 2019 and don't disagree that those vets could have influenced the youngers players around them to some degree. 

But I do believe a a lot of that needs to fall on the coaching staff and I hold them at fault for not instilling more discipline in their players. 

I have never seen anything about Poz wanting to keep on playing, but it wouldn't shock me if it were true. 
Can neither confirm nor deny that one.

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I guess we all have to get our facts right, because look at the bolded above, he wanted to play one more year, some time it is not about the production on the field. I'm talking about the leadership aspect. Poz was getting less reps, that is cool but to have him as the locker room guy and pretty much as a coach on the field for leadership, work ethic and how to be professional which could have probably kept things from getting how they were. Last 2 year we were very undisciplined 

Same thing with Mercedes it was the leadership aspect of it. The players have people to model after, did you not watch the pride and dedication that Lewis had on his interviews, being one of the only Jaguars to be there from when were in the playoffs in 2008 to going on a drought to finally being good again. All that stuff is needed for young players.

I don't think these intangibles can be over-emphasized, especially with on roster of younger players.  Championship caliber teams are professional, disciplined and conduct themselves accordingly, both on and off the field.  The stupid personal foul penalties, Jalen's mouth, the arrests in London...……...these are all the product of an immature group without leadership.

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When you get into the endzone, act like you've been there before.

I guess we all have to get our facts right, because look at the bolded above, he wanted to play one more year, some time it is not about the production on the field. I'm talking about the leadership aspect. Poz was getting less reps, that is cool but to have him as the locker room guy and pretty much as a coach on the field for leadership, work ethic and how to be professional which could have probably kept things from getting how they were. Last 2 year we were very undisciplined 

Same thing with Mercedes it was the leadership aspect of it. The players have people to model after, did you not watch the pride and dedication that Lewis had on his interviews, being one of the only Jaguars to be there from when were in the playoffs in 2008 to going on a drought to finally being good again. All that stuff is needed for young players.

Again, I think we all need to come to an agreement because with ARob in another thread and the older articles I have read, it said Robinson wanted be here but when couldn't come to an agreement he they figure he would try somewhere else. If he wanted to leave cool but I dont understand why he want to being the number 1 WR on a team that just almost made it to the Super Bowl

A-Rob flatly stated that he decided a change was needed after playing for three different OC's in Jax. 
I've quoted the article here a half dozen times now and that's what I'm going with.  Others believe he was low-balled by our F.O. based on comments he made in another article.
I still would have tagged him if I were Dave Caldwell regardless of which take is more accurate.

I absolutely agree the horrible lack of discipline (positionally and otherwise) was a major factor in the losses in 2018 and 2019 and don't disagree that those vets could have influenced the youngers players around them to some degree. 

But I do believe a a lot of that needs to fall on the coaching staff and I hold them at fault for not instilling more discipline in their players. 

I have never seen anything about Poz wanting to keep on playing, but it wouldn't shock me if it were true. 
Can neither confirm nor deny that one.

My typically foggy memory definitely remembers reading that Poz had told a teammate that he was planning on returning after the 2017 season. He felt there was unfinished business after the AFCS game. I swear. I SWEAR.

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I know I'm gonna get so much crap for this... But I approve of the Bouye trade. By the time this team is ready to compete for a Superbowl again, chances are good that that 4th rounder will be a much more valuable player than Bouye would be at that time.

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I know I'm gonna get so much crap for this... But I approve of the Bouye trade. By the time this team is ready to compete for a Superbowl again, chances are good that that 4th rounder will be a much more valuable player than Bouye would be at that time.

Realistically, if the Jaguars ever do become a Super Bowl Contender, the 4th rounder would have played out his rookie contract and signed with a different team.

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I know I'm gonna get so much crap for this... But I approve of the Bouye trade. By the time this team is ready to compete for a Superbowl again, chances are good that that 4th rounder will be a much more valuable player than Bouye would be at that time.

Realistically, if the Jaguars ever do become a Super Bowl Contender, the 4th rounder would have played out his rookie contract and signed with a different team.

Very likely. I'm definitely not trying to suggest this organization is anywhere close to actually being successful.

My point is, in 3, 4 years down the line there's a semi-decent chance that a 4th round pick from this draft will be a contributing player. The odds on Bouye continuing to be effective are rapidly dropping with each passing year.

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Realistically, if the Jaguars ever do become a Super Bowl Contender, the 4th rounder would have played out his rookie contract and signed with a different team.

Very likely. I'm definitely not trying to suggest this organization is anywhere close to actually being successful.

My point is, in 3, 4 years down the line there's a semi-decent chance that a 4th round pick from this draft will be a contributing player. The odds on Bouye continuing to be effective are rapidly dropping with each passing year.

I don't understand the logic, because if you look at our past drafts, are there any of our 4th rounds picks there are contributing in a positive way? I'm not sure when it switched but it seems like people value draft picks more than good players.

The thing people are not taking into to account is that draft picks majority of the time don't pan out. Forget about our 4th round picks, where are all our past 1 thru 3rd round picks from over the years?

I understand if you are trying think positive but outside of that, what we have done and what we are doing is not good, its hard to the same front office, that have been able to blame, players, coughlin, offensive coordinator, d coordinators, are still making the decisions of how many seasons of losing

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Very likely. I'm definitely not trying to suggest this organization is anywhere close to actually being successful.

My point is, in 3, 4 years down the line there's a semi-decent chance that a 4th round pick from this draft will be a contributing player. The odds on Bouye continuing to be effective are rapidly dropping with each passing year.

I don't understand the logic, because if you look at our past drafts, are there any of our 4th rounds picks there are contributing in a positive way? I'm not sure when it switched but it seems like people value draft picks more than good players.

The thing people are not taking into to account is that draft picks majority of the time don't pan out. Forget about our 4th round picks, where are all our past 1 thru 3rd round picks from over the years?

I understand if you are trying think positive but outside of that, what we have done and what we are doing is not good, its hard to the same front office, that have been able to blame, players, coughlin, offensive coordinator, d coordinators, are still making the decisions of how many seasons of losing

I'm definitely not "thinking positive", I've been saying all off-season that I see very very little chance of us having success next year. That's why I think we need to be taking a longer term approach and building for 2 or 3 years down the line.

Look, I agree with you on the broad point that this organization was too quick to dismantle the 2017 defense, either by choice or mishandling. But it's too late to try to cling onto that fleeting glory now... It's long gone.

And while I understand that draft picks are far from a sure thing, you can say the same for any form of player acquisition. The truth is we are at a moment in time with some young good players, including a QB, and the team should be being built for the future around them. The Bouye trade fits into that mould.

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