(emphasis added)

No, that's not what I am saying.

Let me summarize...

1.  If you have a star player on your roster, do what you can to keep him.  If he becomes unhappy, do what you can to smooth things over.
2.  If the differences between him and the team become completely untenable, get as many picks as you can for him.
3.  Make sure you turn the picks you get in exchange for him into the best players.

I have mixed feelings about #1.  I think the team was slow to give him a new deal when other players drafted immediately above him in the same draft class got new deals.  Ramsey did not.  Then there was the whole thing with Coughlin.  Those things pissed Ramsey off and were completely avoidable.  However, the team DID try to smooth things over with him (at least everyone but TC did).  Marrone said he wanted to keep him.  Caldwell said he wanted to keep him.  Khan said he wanted to keep him and met with him to try to achieve that result.

Point 2, I absolutely believe the team achieved this result.  No problem with this part.

Point 3 is where I have the issue at this point.  Might my perspective change?  Sure.  If Chaisson becomes a Pro Bowl caliber player for us, my opinion will change.  Or if he doesn't, if the picks we get in 2021 turn into Pro Bowl caliber players, then my opinion changes.

If it's about point 3 then that would apply to any draft pick, not just one we got in a trade, so I don't know why you brought up the Ramsey trade.

Is there a point 4 that screwing up a pick you get in a trade is worse than screwing up a different pick? If that's your reason for adding in the Ramsey trade then I counter that picking Fournette instead of Mahomes is far worse than completely blowing all three of the Ramsey picks.

You don't like the Chaisson pick, I get it. Just say that. We won't know for a couple of years whether or not the Chaisson pick was the best player. Even if not the best player he could have been the best option if the better player is (say) a WR and we end up with and equally good WR later in the draft.

Because draft picks don't exist in a vacuum.  When you trade away a top player, what you get in exchange for him is paramount.  Overall context is important.  When you trash the Fournette pick, it's not just looking at him as a player, but in comparison to what was available, as you point out here.  To say that the context of the Ramsey trade is irrelevant doesn't reflect the broader context.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Daryl Smith, he had a few good seasons for the Ravens

Fair point...but it's not like the purging of talent ala Ramsey/T.Smith/Ngakoue/Campbell/Bouye.

Just to be clear, I am ok with what the team has done with those players:

Ramsey - Diva and a cancer and we got good compensation
Telvin - Not sure but if he doesn't wanna be here who cares? he wasn't even good his last season
Ngakoue - Highly overrated, only know hows to pass rush and not even great at that, now he is acting like an idiot so...
Campbell - Loved the guy but he is getting old and we are not gonna be even close to making the playoffs so I am ok with trading him for something
Bouye - Same as Campbell except Campbell was still playing at a high level, Bouye was average the laast 2 seasons

---

(emphasis added)

No, that's not what I am saying.

Let me summarize...

1.  If you have a star player on your roster, do what you can to keep him.  If he becomes unhappy, do what you can to smooth things over.
2.  If the differences between him and the team become completely untenable, get as many picks as you can for him.
3.  Make sure you turn the picks you get in exchange for him into the best players.

I have mixed feelings about #1.  I think the team was slow to give him a new deal when other players drafted immediately above him in the same draft class got new deals.  Ramsey did not.  Then there was the whole thing with Coughlin.  Those things pissed Ramsey off and were completely avoidable.  However, the team DID try to smooth things over with him (at least everyone but TC did).  Marrone said he wanted to keep him.  Caldwell said he wanted to keep him.  Khan said he wanted to keep him and met with him to try to achieve that result.

Point 2, I absolutely believe the team achieved this result.  No problem with this part.

Point 3 is where I have the issue at this point.  Might my perspective change?  Sure.  If Chaisson becomes a Pro Bowl caliber player for us, my opinion will change.  Or if he doesn't, if the picks we get in 2021 turn into Pro Bowl caliber players, then my opinion changes.

So, correct me if I'm wrong here, but, to sum up the last 5 pages, what you seem to be trying to say is, at this point you're not sure if Chaisson was the best pick at #20.

Sorry, Bullseye, I love ya man, but I couldn't resist.

 

Hey...I am a fan who fans.  I get carried away on occasion!

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Fair point...but it's not like the purging of talent ala Ramsey/T.Smith/Ngakoue/Campbell/Bouye.

Just to be clear, I am ok with what the team has done with those players:

Ramsey - Diva and a cancer and we got good compensation
Telvin - Not sure but if he doesn't wanna be here who cares? he wasn't even good his last season
Ngakoue - Highly overrated, only know hows to pass rush and not even great at that, now he is acting like an idiot so...
Campbell - Loved the guy but he is getting old and we are not gonna be even close to making the playoffs so I am ok with trading him for something
Bouye - Same as Campbell except Campbell was still playing at a high level, Bouye was average the laast 2 seasons

I am as well...just a response to the person that said this his Caldwell M.O. of purging talent.

I don't think there was a whole lot worth saving when he was hired and agree pretty much with the current moves as they had to be done for varying legit reasons...its not like we pulled a Hopkins trade.

---

Honestly I like your statement Bullseye of "We are drafting on a treadmill."  That is my issue.  We are creating the scenario that justifies the need drafting that puts us in the situation to keep doing the same behavior again and again.  Honestly the draft is crystal ball stuff so my unhappy feelings with one pick or the other will end up being fan overreaction.  I will have stupid posts that point out that I'm fanning hard on fandom emotion at various parts of this whole thing.

but...

This organization under DC's hand has proven to build nothing.  In re-watching the 2017 run (thanks free gamerewind), it was a fluke season with a very poor offense because the QB was inconsistent and was absolutely untrusted to do much until they had no other option.  The plan was to jump start with defense to allow us to have the time needed to develop the offensive side of the ball.

Well...

I'm still waiting for the offense to be addressed.  We have some occasional blips of good choices but they haven't gone all in on solving anything.  We lucked in to a smart and exciting guy who has potential but will we do the Jaguar thing and surround him with failure?

I really hope we see signs of an anything but a flat line when it comes to development.  Not only that, with the COVID crude this year, what is that going to do to teams that need to develop rookies or second year players?  Minshew is already on his second OC and now he can't work with them.

---

Birth of the Franchise - November 30, 1993
Death of the Franchise - November 29, 2011

Fans deserve better. Thanks for all the good times too many are in the past.

By the fans perspective, getting rid of a player you deem to be a malcontent has value.

But I submit a talented but unhappy player is less of a headache than having a team of less talented players.

Ramsey's contract is about to be a massive headache for the Rams, assuming they want to re-sign him after this season.  With Ramsey, I see 3 things at play:

A player becoming larger than the team with his constant "look at me" distractions.
A player with a looming franchise-busting contract demand.
A player who crossed a line that you just can't come back from (faking injury)

Sure, he's very, very good at his job, but then, so is Antonio Brown.  The trade was an absolute windfall for the Jags.  To your other point, we'll know in 2 years if we completely blew the number 20 pick.  While I know you're disappointed, lets see how the rest of the draft plays out.  They haven't picked anyone I had targeted yet either, but the run on cornerbacks sure put the #9 pick in perspective.  If we think Henderson's a cut above the guys that followed him, then he's worth #9.

---

If this was a brand new regime, maybe we would be looking at it a little different but these are the same people who have botched numerous 1st rounders.

---

By the fans perspective, getting rid of a player you deem to be a malcontent has value.

But I submit a talented but unhappy player is less of a headache than having a team of less talented players.

Ramsey's contract is about to be a massive headache for the Rams, assuming they want to re-sign him after this season.  With Ramsey, I see 3 things at play:

A player becoming larger than the team with his constant "look at me" distractions.
A player with a looming franchise-busting contract demand.
A player who crossed a line that you just can't come back from (faking injury)

Sure, he's very, very good at his job, but then, so is Antonio Brown.  The trade was an absolute windfall for the Jags.  To your other point, we'll know in 2 years if we completely blew the number 20 pick.  While I know you're disappointed, lets see how the rest of the draft plays out.  They haven't picked anyone I had targeted yet either, but the run on cornerbacks sure put the #9 pick in perspective.  If we think Henderson's a cut above the guys that followed him, then he's worth #9.

Oh, I'm not giving up on the rest of this draft.  Still lots of talent available that can help this team.

But despite our windfall of picks, we won't likely be able to adequately fill every hole we have.

regardig Ramsey's contract demands, are teams better off never drafting Hall of Fame caliber players?

Not saying Ramsey is necessarily a Hall of Famer, but we can agree he was an All Pro and pro bowl caliber player at this early stage of his career.

But assume for argument's sake we had an immediate impact, hall of fame player on his rookie deal.

Re-signing him will invariably cost a ton.

Do we always avoid re-signing guys like that because they want to get paid according to their skills?!?

Should the Jaguars only draft good at best players to avoid the big contract?

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Ramsey's contract is about to be a massive headache for the Rams, assuming they want to re-sign him after this season.  With Ramsey, I see 3 things at play:

A player becoming larger than the team with his constant "look at me" distractions.
A player with a looming franchise-busting contract demand.
A player who crossed a line that you just can't come back from (faking injury)

Sure, he's very, very good at his job, but then, so is Antonio Brown.  The trade was an absolute windfall for the Jags.  To your other point, we'll know in 2 years if we completely blew the number 20 pick.  While I know you're disappointed, lets see how the rest of the draft plays out.  They haven't picked anyone I had targeted yet either, but the run on cornerbacks sure put the #9 pick in perspective.  If we think Henderson's a cut above the guys that followed him, then he's worth #9.

Oh, I'm not giving up on the rest of this draft.  Still lots of talent available that can help this team.

But despite our windfall of picks, we won't likely be able to adequately fill every hole we have.

regardig Ramsey's contract demands, are teams better off never drafting Hall of Fame caliber players?

Not saying Ramsey is necessarily a Hall of Famer, but we can agree he was an All Pro and pro bowl caliber player at this early stage of his career.

But assume for argument's sake we had an immediate impact, hall of fame player on his rookie deal.

Re-signing him will invariably cost a ton.

Do we always avoid re-signing guys like that because they want to get paid according to their skills?!?

Should the Jaguars only draft good at best players to avoid the big contract?

Answering your three questions, let's use Boselli as an example:

1. It's always awesome to draft Hall-of-Fame caliber players, even if they wind up on someone else's team when they're done.  Ideally, you'd like for them to be completely spent by the time they're on another team.
2. Re-signing them to even record amounts of money is not just good business, but expected.  But you are not just paid for your skill set.  Character, work ethic, and durability factor in, too.  A guy like Boselli had it all until that one injury.  Ramsey seems to have a serious character flaw.  Too bad, would have loved for him to be the highest paid Jag, but he can't be.
3. No, draft great players.  If they hit all their marks, give them big contracts. 

If you draft 10 great guys and can't give them all contracts, then you have to make some serious business decisions about who to keep, who to trade, and who to let walk in free agency.  In other threads, you and other posters posited that the Jags are "purging the roster".  I contend that what Caldwell is doing is not only natural on a bad team, but on a good team as well.  Ketchman isn't right about everything, but one statement still resonates with me.

It's a game of replacement.

You're obviously not content with the replacement, and I think that's fine.  Ramsey, however, had to be replaced.  I'm not sure we did it this year, but we have an extra #1 next year.

---

Oh, I'm not giving up on the rest of this draft.  Still lots of talent available that can help this team.

But despite our windfall of picks, we won't likely be able to adequately fill every hole we have.

regardig Ramsey's contract demands, are teams better off never drafting Hall of Fame caliber players?

Not saying Ramsey is necessarily a Hall of Famer, but we can agree he was an All Pro and pro bowl caliber player at this early stage of his career.

But assume for argument's sake we had an immediate impact, hall of fame player on his rookie deal.

Re-signing him will invariably cost a ton.

Do we always avoid re-signing guys like that because they want to get paid according to their skills?!?

Should the Jaguars only draft good at best players to avoid the big contract?

Answering your three questions, let's use Boselli as an example:

1. It's always awesome to draft Hall-of-Fame caliber players, even if they wind up on someone else's team when they're done.  Ideally, you'd like for them to be completely spent by the time they're on another team.
2. Re-signing them to even record amounts of money is not just good business, but expected.  But you are not just paid for your skill set.  Character, work ethic, and durability factor in, too.  A guy like Boselli had it all until that one injury.  Ramsey seems to have a serious character flaw.  Too bad, would have loved for him to be the highest paid Jag, but he can't be.
3. No, draft great players.  If they hit all their marks, give them big contracts. 

If you draft 10 great guys and can't give them all contracts, then you have to make some serious business decisions about who to keep, who to trade, and who to let walk in free agency.  In other threads, you and other posters posited that the Jags are "purging the roster".  I contend that what Caldwell is doing is not only natural on a bad team, but on a good team as well.  Ketchman isn't right about everything, but one statement still resonates with me.

It's a game of replacement.

You're obviously not content with the replacement, and I think that's fine.  Ramsey, however, had to be replaced.  I'm not sure we did it this year, but we have an extra #1 next year.

Understood that not every great player can be re-signed.

But some CAN be.  There is no way Reed, Polamalu and Watt could have had the long careers with their teams were that not true.

With the Jaguars, the few Pro Bowl caliber players we DO draft end up leaving, while we don't hesitate to re-sign middle tier players.

That KILLS our continuity, identity and morale.  It's a recipie for failure.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Understood that not every great player can be re-signed.

But some CAN be.  There is no way Reed, Polamalu and Watt could have had the long careers with their teams were that not true.

With the Jaguars, the few Pro Bowl caliber players we DO draft end up leaving, while we don't hesitate to re-sign middle tier players.

That KILLS our continuity, identity and morale.  It's a recipie for failure.

I agree with all you said, and it may be a result of not having enough good players.  It's a "bad team" problem - no one wants to stick around.  I think what you said about middle tier players is true, but that's really because, hey, those ARE our best players.

We have attempted to keep what we thought were good players, and then, suddenly, they weren't that good (thinking Bortles, Garrard).  Didn't Poz retire as a Jag?  He was probably better than middle tier.  Calais was age related, Ramsey was a punk, and we ARE actively trying to pay Ngakoue.  Allen Robinson was a good player that left not because of compensation or lack of respect, he just wanted a shot on what he felt was a better team.  And then there's the short, crazy Jaguar career of Nick Foles.

In the past 10 years, which Jag that walked in free agency or got cut would you have re-signed?  MJD? Mathis? Campbell? I'm all about keeping a solid core of high character people, but it's hard under the best of circumstances.

---

Understood that not every great player can be re-signed.

But some CAN be.  There is no way Reed, Polamalu and Watt could have had the long careers with their teams were that not true.

With the Jaguars, the few Pro Bowl caliber players we DO draft end up leaving, while we don't hesitate to re-sign middle tier players.

That KILLS our continuity, identity and morale.  It's a recipie for failure.

I agree with all you said, and it may be a result of not having enough good players.  It's a "bad team" problem - no one wants to stick around.  I think what you said about middle tier players is true, but that's really because, hey, those ARE our best players.

We have attempted to keep what we thought were good players, and then, suddenly, they weren't that good (thinking Bortles, Garrard).  Didn't Poz retire as a Jag?  He was probably better than middle tier.  Calais was age related, Ramsey was a punk, and we ARE actively trying to pay Ngakoue.  Allen Robinson was a good player that left not because of compensation or lack of respect, he just wanted a shot on what he felt was a better team.  And then there's the short, crazy Jaguar career of Nick Foles.

In the past 10 years, which Jag that walked in free agency or got cut would you have re-signed?  MJD? Mathis? Campbell? I'm all about keeping a solid core of high character people, but it's hard under the best of circumstances.

Certainly Allen Robinson could have helped this team as far as free agents.  If money was a driving factor in Ramsey's discontent here, I would have extended him before he became a problem, as with Yan.

But if it were simply a "bad team" problem, then that paradigm makes it virtually impossible to transition into a good team, because you can never really accumulate talent.  You are always trying replacing the good talent you allowed to leave, to say nothing about upgrading other position.  This desribes "drafting on a treadmill" to a tee.

Now if I could go back a little further than ten years and include trades, I might have included Marcus Stroud, who wound up playing well for Buffahole after he left here.

Bottom line is we need to do a better job in player retention.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Lol at people missing Ramsey xD

Yes, considering his level of talent.

But we're the Jaguars.  Talent is not welcome here.

Talent doesn't exist in a vacuum.  Character, desire, personality, and commitment are important, too.  Ramsey has one but not the other four.  Good riddance.

---

Fix the O-Line!

At this point, I am unconvinced they ht with the Chaisson pick.

Furthermore, I agree with you that by eschewing T and WR, we have put Minshew in a tenuous situation.  We stilll have picks left to address these positions, but we left a lot of talent to other teams, talent that could have been of benefit to Minshew and the team.

---

But as it stands now, I don't see Chaisson at that level of talent.  I desperately want to be proven wrong.

I was satisfied with the Chaisson pick at 20.  I was not satisfied with the Henderson pick at 9.  But I'm warming up to it.  I understand why they picked both.  Holes in the defense are more numerous than the ones on offense.  I've been banging the drum for at least 3 or 4 years that we need to fix the O-line.  We have a line coach who can't coach and we have players who can never get to Pro Bowl caliber.  Competent line play covers a multitude of sins.  But with good talent on the board, we opted for defense...again.  Can we find a starter on the OL on day two?  Who knows.  Certainly not an immediate effective starter.  And I don't trust this staff to coach up a prospect.  And the defense will never be truly good as long as Wash is DC.  Warhop and Wash are weak leaks and yet they have the loyalty of the HC.  *sigh*  Maybe they cut Warhop loose and see what Sparano, Jr. can do if it's his gig.

Round 2 pick needs to be an impact OL, if such can be found.  Or maybe we get lucky and Caldwell pulls off a trade of Ngouke for a good guard or tackle.

---

Fix the O-Line!

One of my arguments against trading Ramsey was even with the extra first round picks dealing him provided, it was far from guaranteed we'd get players close in quality to Ramsey.

We now have one of the picks from the Ramsey deal:  K'Lavon Chaisson.

Now perhaps I may be wrong about this.  God knows I hope I am.  He does have more of a burst than Barkevious Mingo.  But This pick doesn't come close to recoouping value for Ramsey.

For that matter, neither does reaching for Henderson at 9.

I noticed the above post makes no mention of the financial impact of Ramsey.  Were you willing to make him the highest paid DB in the history of the NFL?  You know that's coming and you know he will not play under a franchise after then 2020 season.  

Perhaps someone already made note of this as I didn't go through all the responses.

---

I agree with all you said, and it may be a result of not having enough good players.  It's a "bad team" problem - no one wants to stick around.  I think what you said about middle tier players is true, but that's really because, hey, those ARE our best players.

We have attempted to keep what we thought were good players, and then, suddenly, they weren't that good (thinking Bortles, Garrard).  Didn't Poz retire as a Jag?  He was probably better than middle tier.  Calais was age related, Ramsey was a punk, and we ARE actively trying to pay Ngakoue.  Allen Robinson was a good player that left not because of compensation or lack of respect, he just wanted a shot on what he felt was a better team.  And then there's the short, crazy Jaguar career of Nick Foles.

In the past 10 years, which Jag that walked in free agency or got cut would you have re-signed?  MJD? Mathis? Campbell? I'm all about keeping a solid core of high character people, but it's hard under the best of circumstances.

Certainly Allen Robinson could have helped this team as far as free agents.  If money was a driving factor in Ramsey's discontent here, I would have extended him before he became a problem, as with Yan.

But if it were simply a "bad team" problem, then that paradigm makes it virtually impossible to transition into a good team, because you can never really accumulate talent.  You are always trying replacing the good talent you allowed to leave, to say nothing about upgrading other position.  This desribes "drafting on a treadmill" to a tee.

Now if I could go back a little further than ten years and include trades, I might have included Marcus Stroud, who wound up playing well for Buffahole after he left here.

Bottom line is we need to do a better job in player retention.

Fantasticly put Bullseye. That is exactly my problem. Never being able to build and continually inprove the roster, so many times we have to replace whats walked out the door.

To BlueEyedJag, im not faulting Caldwell for letting what talent leave when he started, it was a whole new project. It was exciting. My point was more we had what we thought was our O set and its not Caldwell's fault they didn't work out but then add the 2017 D to that and how many have made it to 2nd contracts?

Myles, Bortles, Hurns only played one year on it, Telvin the same. Linder, Lee. I may have missed some but theres not been many for such a long span. Thats why i dont get the obsession with taking draft picks for talent. I understand thpugh the Ramsey situation was tough. This also feeds into Bullseye's point about player retention.

---

Do we need to do a better job of player retention? Sure. In the same breath, there needs to be player progression as well. With few exceptions, there aren't many that have left and gone on to have a stellar career. I'm all for paying homegrown talent if it's there, but it really hasn't been.

---

Honestly I like your statement Bullseye of "We are drafting on a treadmill."  That is my issue.  We are creating the scenario that justifies the need drafting that puts us in the situation to keep doing the same behavior again and again.  Honestly the draft is crystal ball stuff so my unhappy feelings with one pick or the other will end up being fan overreaction.  I will have stupid posts that point out that I'm fanning hard on fandom emotion at various parts of this whole thing.

but...

This organization under DC's hand has proven to build nothing.  In re-watching the 2017 run (thanks free gamerewind), it was a fluke season with a very poor offense because the QB was inconsistent and was absolutely untrusted to do much until they had no other option.  The plan was to jump start with defense to allow us to have the time needed to develop the offensive side of the ball.

Well...

I'm still waiting for the offense to be addressed.  We have some occasional blips of good choices but they haven't gone all in on solving anything.  We lucked in to a smart and exciting guy who has potential but will we do the Jaguar thing and surround him with failure?

I really hope we see signs of an anything but a flat line when it comes to development.  Not only that, with the COVID crude this year, what is that going to do to teams that need to develop rookies or second year players?  Minshew is already on his second OC and now he can't work with them.

Obviously I agree with your first paragraph.

Agree to a degree with the second sentiment.

I don't necessarily see 2017 as a fluke-at least not for the reasons you describe.  Ofensively, the team wasn't bad that year, even though Bortles was inconsistent.  Though I think the defense was indeed quite talented, I think the aberration came due to the state of the rest of the division.

While I am convinced we won't fill every need this draft, I still think there is plenty of talent available that can help Minshew a great deal.

I can not agree more completely with your closing statement, though I think Gruden is an upgrade as an OC.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

One of my arguments against trading Ramsey was even with the extra first round picks dealing him provided, it was far from guaranteed we'd get players close in quality to Ramsey.

We now have one of the picks from the Ramsey deal:  K'Lavon Chaisson.

Now perhaps I may be wrong about this.  God knows I hope I am.  He does have more of a burst than Barkevious Mingo.  But This pick doesn't come close to recoouping value for Ramsey.

For that matter, neither does reaching for Henderson at 9.

I noticed the above post makes no mention of the financial impact of Ramsey.  Were you willing to make him the highest paid DB in the history of the NFL?  You know that's coming and you know he will not play under a franchise after then 2020 season.  

Perhaps someone already made note of this as I didn't go through all the responses.

Yes this was addressed elsewhere in the thread...by anonymous later on...here in fact.  #108


To save you the search...short answer...

Absolutely.

You have to pay for and reward excellent production.

Do you know why the Steelers were able to go to three Super Bowls since 2005?  In large part because they extended great players like Big Pen, Polamalu, and Pouncey.  Know why the Ravens have had so much success over the years?  Because they were willing to retain great players like Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, and Terrell Suggs, while adding guys like Haloti Ngata to fill in around them.

You won't be able to keep every great player..but you have to keep some.

Simply being content drafting mere good players at best to avoid big contracts guarantees mediocrity.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Do we need to do a better job of player retention? Sure. In the same breath, there needs to be player progression as well. With few exceptions, there aren't many that have left and gone on to have a stellar career. I'm all for paying homegrown talent if it's there, but it really hasn't been.

Thats a very fair point and does need to factor in.

---