[quote='NewJagsCity' pid='1336684' dateline='1604812801']

I edited my response as you were responding. Im not comparing Trump and Fauci, trump obviously didnt want to wear a mask even after fauci reversed his position which was a bad look and,a bad message. I was merely pointing out that early on, I could understand why some people , including Trump, would have been skeptical with the advice they were being given.  And i guess my bigger point is, since the science was wrong early on and people got infected and maybe died as a result, then what value does 'following the science' even have? If following the science means accepting a proven cure, then that's reasonable. But till that happens, then following the science seems to be a bit of a crapshoot.

Obviously the science of a new disease needs time to be established.  Its not reasonable to expect strong guidelines in the early phases of any disease because their is limited information to understand it.  Science is the continuous addition of new data and information... the more data, the better knowledge and decision-making.  We know more now about COVID than we did in the Spring, we will know more next year than we do now.  You make decisions with the best information available at the time.  That should be obvious.

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[quote='jj82284' pid='1336685' dateline='1604812846']

So what didn't we know about covid in the spring that would have formulated Fauci's claim that masks were harmful? We knew it was a virus or some kind of flu. Masks have always been a first line prophylactic for situations like those. I guess you are just set on defending Fauci regardless.

Not intending to argue with you here. From some of your previous posts it seems like we share a lot of values in common. This just isn't one of them.

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"Remember Red, Hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."  - Andy Dufresne, The Shawshank Redemption

I edited my response as you were responding. Im not comparing Trump and Fauci, trump obviously didnt want to wear a mask even after fauci reversed his position which was a bad look and,a bad message. I was merely pointing out that early on, I could understand why some people , including Trump, would have been skeptical with the advice they were being given.  And i guess my bigger point is, since the science was wrong early on and people got infected and maybe died as a result, then what value does 'following the science' even have? If following the science means accepting a proven cure, then that's reasonable. But till that happens, then following the science seems to be a bit of a crapshoot.

Obviously the science of a new disease needs time to be established.  Its not reasonable to expect strong guidelines in the early phases of any disease because their is limited information to understand it.  Science is the continuous addition of new data and information... the more data, the better knowledge and decision-making.  We know more now about COVID than we did in the Spring, we will know more next year than we do now.  You make decisions with the best information available at the time.  That should be obvious.

---

So what didn't we know about covid in the spring that would have formulated Fauci's claim that masks were harmful? We knew it was a virus or some kind of flu. Masks have always been a first line prophylactic for situations like those. I guess you are just set on defending Fauci regardless.

Not intending to argue with you here. From some of your previous posts it seems like we share a lot of values in common. This just isn't one of them.

Like I said, I think his reasoning must have been a combination of PPE concerns for frontline workers and lack of info with a novel virus.  He was obviously wrong, but quickly realized it and changed course.  I don't view someone who admits he made a mistake and quickly corrects it as a weakness, I see it as a strength.  One that Trump clearly does not have.

---

This is a results-oriented business.  There are no trophies or titles given for "moral victories" or for "winning the draft".  Our record with DC is 37-86.  6-10 is our 2nd best season in 8 years of Caldwell leadership.  These are the FACTS.

Soooo is anyone going to say that the cloth masks 99% of people are wearing dont actually work? Don't actually block a virus from getting through.

---

Like I said, I think his reasoning must have been a combination of PPE concerns for frontline workers and lack of info with a novel virus.  He was obviously wrong, but quickly realized it and changed course.  I don't view someone who admits he made a mistake and quickly corrects it as a weakness, I see it as a strength.  One that Trump clearly does not have.

What was the reduction in infection rate for 90% mask compliance as detailed by the study from Goldman Sachs?  What about the total number of masks needed to stop one infection from the Dutch study?

You used the US Total deaths per million to criticize Trump policy.  Then when I present the fact that the drivers of that rate were in fact NY NJ etc. Now all of a sudden its a novel virus and no ones fault.  

What percentage of deaths in PA were in nursing homes?  Whats the average age of death for a COVID patient?  What was PAs policy on covid + cases going into nursing homes?  How did this policy affect the decision of the top health official in PA when it came to their family member?  

I'll wait.

---

Soooo is anyone going to say that the cloth masks 99% of people are wearing dont actually work? Don't actually block a virus from getting through.

Shhhhhh, you'll scare the children!

---

Soooo is anyone going to say that the cloth masks 99% of people are wearing dont actually work? Don't actually block a virus from getting through.

Masks have always been a probabilities based temporary solution

---

Then your concern and focus should be on improving mental illness/health care for everyone. When the government decided to shut down the mental institutions and those poor folks who didn't get transferred were set loose. We have no safety net for people who suffer with mental illness to be teeated. The hospitals weren't perfect and needed vast improvements, but they were something. Even someone with good medical insurance has a hard time getting good treatment if things escalate beyond the regular visits to the shrink. People without insurance are really screwed and nine times out of ten mental illness is a factor in these mass shooter situations. 

So put those two things together with the addition of a weapon and it's the perfect storm of circumstances for things to get ugly. 

The weapons can come from anywhere. There was the kid whose father bought him one as a gift. There was the other kid who took his mom's gun. Neither were semi-auto yet they did some damage. People who can't get one legally will get it another way. There is just no way to get around it.

Mental health is more than just people in mental institutions.  Mental health is a complex issue.  Gun control isn't.  There are so few legitimate reasons for people in 2020 to own a firearm.

There is a damn good legitimate reason for me and my husband to own firearms. I am alone 14 hours a night while my husband is at work an hour away. Every holiday season idiots start breaking into homes, cars, etc.around neighborhoods, and carjacking in peoples driveways and business parking lots is a serious issue in the city my husband works. So I'm going to defend and protect myself at home and my husband will protect himself as well.

My brother and many people I know go hunting to fill their deep freezer for the winter. I don't see a problem with them owning hunting rifles. 

I do not see a problem with either scenario.

---

Wear the damn mask. It will make your face look better haha

Aint nothing wrong with the mask for a few more months until this is all under control. vaccine excetera

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Fauci said that early for 2 reasons: 1) it was in the early stages of learning about the disease and the scientific community was largely ignorant of what they were dealing with then, and 2) there were shortages of PPE for medical workers and they wanted to make sure they first had access to that type of resources on the front lines before the general population started hoarding it (like toilet paper and sanitary wipes).  You gotta be smart enough to realize that.

Ignorance is no excuse for not acting overly cautious.
Plenty of people like me made thier own face coverings before any PPE was on the shelves for sale. Why wouldnt Fauci encourage that instead of telling them something that most people knew instinctively was wrong.  I started wearing a mask on March 13th, the day lockdown was declared. People looked at me like I was insane and/or diseased.  And lack of PPE wouldn't have stopped most people from making masks if Fauci would have erred on the side of caution. He didn't. So I can understand why there was a certain degree of skepticism.  And even wearing a mask in public at all times, I still got it. Science doesn't always know everything.

These are some interesting comments. It does makes me wonder how much better things might have been, if Fauci and Trump's medical experts had stressed facial covering wearing earlier on. Even if it was homemade facial coverings.

Back in April I got a new job and a couple of days before I started I learned it was mandatory that we wear face masks. I work for the federal government/military and they mandated this before my state NC did. And this was also before more experts did it and people were suggesting it be done more on a national level.

I remember trying to scrounge around to find a mask, because people were really hoarding them and they were no where to be found where I live. I ordered some on Amazon but it was going to be a while before they were delivered. I borrowed a painters mask from my dad for my first day of work and it was extremely uncomfortable. Thankfully, the secretary had some more comfortable ones and she gave them to me to use. I was able to use them to tide me over until the ones I ordered in the mail were sent to me/mask became readily available. 

Early on it seemed like Fauci and also the Surgeon General weren't really clear on the use of facial coverings. It really did seem like they felt they could be optional. Granted they may have their reasons for not recommending them more earlier, on but they really didn't push for them much. Which is one reason why I'm not as critical towards Trump about that. I'm not a Trump Support (I'm a dem), but I don't really blame him as much as others for some things. Because earlier on in like March/April the experts weren't really recommending the masks as much (and they probably should have) and I can't fault him for that. 

I started wearing masks in public/around the time I started my new job in April. And before our governor in NC mandated that we wear them. I remember going somewhere like a Publix early on and seeing how scared some of the grocery store workers looked who were wearing masks. And I thought to myself that they didn't deserve to work in fear, especially with all of the exposure they have to deal with. I deal with a ton of exposure at work, so I definitely empathize with them. Since that moment I decided to wear masks in public for the time being, even though I also wear them 40+hours at work every week. 

And have found them to be uncomfortable at times. And have spoken on some of the downsides of wearing them in the COVID thread on this site. Overall, though I do think they can save lives, can limit the impact of Covid. I deal with a lot of military service members/personnel plus co-workers and every day several people are coughing, sneezing, spreading spittle. It's a ton of exposure. I do think that the mask help me and others deal with that. Though, we still unfortunately have had people come down with severe cases of COVID at work. Including someone who was hospitalized for months along with their spouse and had a heart attack afterwards.

He just came back to work not too long ago and even now isn't working that much. Strange thing about it is, he had his own office and usually worked back there. He didn't interact with nearly as many people as some of the rest of the people at my job did. But he still caught a severe case of it, as did at least a couple of other people at work.

---

Ignorance is no excuse for not acting overly cautious.
Plenty of people like me made thier own face coverings before any PPE was on the shelves for sale. Why wouldnt Fauci encourage that instead of telling them something that most people knew instinctively was wrong.  I started wearing a mask on March 13th, the day lockdown was declared. People looked at me like I was insane and/or diseased.  And lack of PPE wouldn't have stopped most people from making masks if Fauci would have erred on the side of caution. He didn't. So I can understand why there was a certain degree of skepticism.  And even wearing a mask in public at all times, I still got it. Science doesn't always know everything.

These are some interesting comments. It does makes me wonder how much better things might have been, if Fauci and Trump's medical experts had stressed facial covering wearing earlier on. Even if it was homemade facial coverings.

Back in April I got a new job and a couple of days before I started I learned it was mandatory that we wear face masks. I work for the federal government/military and they mandated this before my state NC did. And this was also before more experts did it and people were suggesting it be done more on a national level.

I remember trying to scrounge around to find a mask, because people were really hoarding them and they were no where to be found where I live. I ordered some on Amazon but it was going to be a while before they were delivered. I borrowed a painters mask from my dad for my first day of work and it was extremely uncomfortable. Thankfully, the secretary had some more comfortable ones and she gave them to me to use. I was able to use them to tide me over until the ones I ordered in the mail were sent to me/mask became readily available. 

Early on it seemed like Fauci and also the Surgeon General weren't really clear on the use of facial coverings. It really did seem like they felt they could be optional. Granted they may have their reasons for not recommending them more earlier, on but they really didn't push for them much. Which is one reason why I'm not as critical towards Trump about that. I'm not a Trump Support (I'm a dem), but I don't really blame him as much as others for some things. Because earlier on in like March/April the experts weren't really recommending the masks as much (and they probably should have) and I can't fault him for that. 

I started wearing masks in public/around the time I started my new job in April. And before our governor in NC mandated that we wear them. I remember going somewhere like a Publix early on and seeing how scared some of the grocery store workers looked who were wearing masks. And I thought to myself that they didn't deserve to work in fear, especially with all of the exposure they have to deal with. I deal with a ton of exposure at work, so I definitely empathize with them. Since that moment I decided to wear masks in public for the time being, even though I also wear them 40+hours at work every week. 

And have found them to be uncomfortable at times. And have spoken on some of the downsides of wearing them in the COVID thread on this site. Overall, though I do think they can save lives, can limit the impact of Covid. I deal with a lot of military service members/personnel plus co-workers and every day several people are coughing, sneezing, spreading spittle. It's a ton of exposure. I do think that the mask help me and others deal with that. Though, we still unfortunately have had people come down with severe cases of COVID at work. Including someone who was hospitalized for months along with their spouse and had a heart attack afterwards.

He just came back to work not too long ago and even now isn't working that much. Strange thing about it is, he had his own office and usually worked back there. He didn't interact with nearly as many people as some of the rest of the people at my job did. But he still caught a severe case of it, as did at least a couple of other people at work.

True.
I suspect that was because they wanted to make sure all the doctors and nurses and dentists had access to them.
My dentist actually stayed closed down beyond the quarantine period simply because he couldn't get masks in stock.
After production of masks ramped up, thats when they started to say everyone should wear them.

---

My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

These are some interesting comments. It does makes me wonder how much better things might have been, if Fauci and Trump's medical experts had stressed facial covering wearing earlier on. Even if it was homemade facial coverings.

Back in April I got a new job and a couple of days before I started I learned it was mandatory that we wear face masks. I work for the federal government/military and they mandated this before my state NC did. And this was also before more experts did it and people were suggesting it be done more on a national level.

I remember trying to scrounge around to find a mask, because people were really hoarding them and they were no where to be found where I live. I ordered some on Amazon but it was going to be a while before they were delivered. I borrowed a painters mask from my dad for my first day of work and it was extremely uncomfortable. Thankfully, the secretary had some more comfortable ones and she gave them to me to use. I was able to use them to tide me over until the ones I ordered in the mail were sent to me/mask became readily available. 

Early on it seemed like Fauci and also the Surgeon General weren't really clear on the use of facial coverings. It really did seem like they felt they could be optional. Granted they may have their reasons for not recommending them more earlier, on but they really didn't push for them much. Which is one reason why I'm not as critical towards Trump about that. I'm not a Trump Support (I'm a dem), but I don't really blame him as much as others for some things. Because earlier on in like March/April the experts weren't really recommending the masks as much (and they probably should have) and I can't fault him for that. 

I started wearing masks in public/around the time I started my new job in April. And before our governor in NC mandated that we wear them. I remember going somewhere like a Publix early on and seeing how scared some of the grocery store workers looked who were wearing masks. And I thought to myself that they didn't deserve to work in fear, especially with all of the exposure they have to deal with. I deal with a ton of exposure at work, so I definitely empathize with them. Since that moment I decided to wear masks in public for the time being, even though I also wear them 40+hours at work every week. 

And have found them to be uncomfortable at times. And have spoken on some of the downsides of wearing them in the COVID thread on this site. Overall, though I do think they can save lives, can limit the impact of Covid. I deal with a lot of military service members/personnel plus co-workers and every day several people are coughing, sneezing, spreading spittle. It's a ton of exposure. I do think that the mask help me and others deal with that. Though, we still unfortunately have had people come down with severe cases of COVID at work. Including someone who was hospitalized for months along with their spouse and had a heart attack afterwards.

He just came back to work not too long ago and even now isn't working that much. Strange thing about it is, he had his own office and usually worked back there. He didn't interact with nearly as many people as some of the rest of the people at my job did. But he still caught a severe case of it, as did at least a couple of other people at work.

True.
I suspect that was because they wanted to make sure all the doctors and nurses and dentists had access to them.
My dentist actually stayed closed down beyond the quarantine period simply because he couldn't get masks in stock.
After production of masks ramped up, thats when they started to say everyone should wear them.

I think that was definitely a big part of it. Unfortunately, one thing I've learned during this pandemic is just how selfish/greedy people can be. We had people hoarding all types of stuff, toilet paper, sanitary wipes/hand sanitizer, meat etc... And earlier on when it was beginning masks. A lot of these people were staying at home, and didn't need as much of this stuff. But they were being greedy and keeping these items out of the hands of some of us who still had to go out and work (especially in essential jobs) including some of our medical professionals. 

Thank goodness now we have a better supply of things, including hand sanitizer and masks. Now if a lot people want masks they can get one. I usually have some extra ones around, in case someone like a co-worker needs one.

---

Like I said, I think his reasoning must have been a combination of PPE concerns for frontline workers and lack of info with a novel virus.  He was obviously wrong, but quickly realized it and changed course.  I don't view someone who admits he made a mistake and quickly corrects it as a weakness, I see it as a strength.  One that Trump clearly does not have.

What was the reduction in infection rate for 90% mask compliance as detailed by the study from Goldman Sachs?  What about the total number of masks needed to stop one infection from the Dutch study?

You used the US Total deaths per million to criticize Trump policy.  Then when I present the fact that the drivers of that rate were in fact NY NJ etc. Now all of a sudden its a novel virus and no ones fault.  

What percentage of deaths in PA were in nursing homes?  Whats the average age of death for a COVID patient?  What was PAs policy on covid + cases going into nursing homes?  How did this policy affect the decision of the top health official in PA when it came to their family member?  

I'll wait.

You will wait.  Because I'm not going to waste my time typing a detailed response to a person with the degree of scientific ignorance you display by not being intelligent enough to even comprehend the conclusions of your own studies you cite as "evidence" for your misinterpreted assertions. I don't waste my time arguing with a 5-year old about algebra when they can't even understand basic addition and subtraction; similarly, I won't engage in a deep discussion about epidemiology and applied medicine with someone who is not capable of interpreting proper conclusions from an isolated research paper.

There is a difference between forming an evidence-based opinion and presenting opinion-based evidence. You are clearly attempting the latter; and you are not even capable of doing that well.

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This is a results-oriented business.  There are no trophies or titles given for "moral victories" or for "winning the draft".  Our record with DC is 37-86.  6-10 is our 2nd best season in 8 years of Caldwell leadership.  These are the FACTS.

Well, good on you man. I'm glad you see something there, cause quite frankly, she looks/sounds more smug and elist than Hillary, if that is even possible.  She def makes Joe sound better in comparison.

Believe me... I want a traditional Republican.  But not some Trumper or QAnon idiot.  Give me a traditional Republican like John McCain and I am there.  But if the direction of the GOP and the next nominee is of the Trump/QAnon brand... I would be forced to switch parties and move to the moderate Democrats side.  This is not the same GOP it used to be 5 years ago. This is going right-wing bat-sh*t crazy.  You're going to lose all the life-long moderate Republicans if the party keeps going down that road.  I hope it changes course back to what it was Pre-Trump.

Both parties have gone sideways. It's not just a GOP thing. And why the heck would you throw a vote to the democrat party? The leftist liberals who are infiltrating it hate everything about what makes this country the best in the world. At least vote Libertarian. 

And you said in another post it's people like who you were replying to that is driving you from the GOP. That's dumb. If the people you don't like can drive you away then you weren't voting for the policies in the first place. Since most people vote according to their beliefs or moral compass or whatever then you must not be sure of yours.

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Believe me... I want a traditional Republican.  But not some Trumper or QAnon idiot.  Give me a traditional Republican like John McCain and I am there.  But if the direction of the GOP and the next nominee is of the Trump/QAnon brand... I would be forced to switch parties and move to the moderate Democrats side.  This is not the same GOP it used to be 5 years ago. This is going right-wing bat-sh*t crazy.  You're going to lose all the life-long moderate Republicans if the party keeps going down that road.  I hope it changes course back to what it was Pre-Trump.

Both parties have gone sideways. It's not just a GOP thing. And why the heck would you throw a vote to the democrat party? The leftist liberals who are infiltrating it hate everything about what makes this country the best in the world. At least vote Libertarian. 

And you said in another post it's people like who you were replying to that is driving you from the GOP. That's dumb. If the people you don't like can drive you away then you weren't voting for the policies in the first place. Since most people vote according to their beliefs or moral compass or whatever then you must not be sure of yours.

C'mon now, any time a new poster shows up and says, "I'm a principled conservative Republican but I just HAD to vote for Biden" you know they are lying.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

These are some interesting comments. It does makes me wonder how much better things might have been, if Fauci and Trump's medical experts had stressed facial covering wearing earlier on. Even if it was homemade facial coverings.

Back in April I got a new job and a couple of days before I started I learned it was mandatory that we wear face masks. I work for the federal government/military and they mandated this before my state NC did. And this was also before more experts did it and people were suggesting it be done more on a national level.

I remember trying to scrounge around to find a mask, because people were really hoarding them and they were no where to be found where I live. I ordered some on Amazon but it was going to be a while before they were delivered. I borrowed a painters mask from my dad for my first day of work and it was extremely uncomfortable. Thankfully, the secretary had some more comfortable ones and she gave them to me to use. I was able to use them to tide me over until the ones I ordered in the mail were sent to me/mask became readily available. 

Early on it seemed like Fauci and also the Surgeon General weren't really clear on the use of facial coverings. It really did seem like they felt they could be optional. Granted they may have their reasons for not recommending them more earlier, on but they really didn't push for them much. Which is one reason why I'm not as critical towards Trump about that. I'm not a Trump Support (I'm a dem), but I don't really blame him as much as others for some things. Because earlier on in like March/April the experts weren't really recommending the masks as much (and they probably should have) and I can't fault him for that. 

I started wearing masks in public/around the time I started my new job in April. And before our governor in NC mandated that we wear them. I remember going somewhere like a Publix early on and seeing how scared some of the grocery store workers looked who were wearing masks. And I thought to myself that they didn't deserve to work in fear, especially with all of the exposure they have to deal with. I deal with a ton of exposure at work, so I definitely empathize with them. Since that moment I decided to wear masks in public for the time being, even though I also wear them 40+hours at work every week. 

And have found them to be uncomfortable at times. And have spoken on some of the downsides of wearing them in the COVID thread on this site. Overall, though I do think they can save lives, can limit the impact of Covid. I deal with a lot of military service members/personnel plus co-workers and every day several people are coughing, sneezing, spreading spittle. It's a ton of exposure. I do think that the mask help me and others deal with that. Though, we still unfortunately have had people come down with severe cases of COVID at work. Including someone who was hospitalized for months along with their spouse and had a heart attack afterwards.

He just came back to work not too long ago and even now isn't working that much. Strange thing about it is, he had his own office and usually worked back there. He didn't interact with nearly as many people as some of the rest of the people at my job did. But he still caught a severe case of it, as did at least a couple of other people at work.

True.
I suspect that was because they wanted to make sure all the doctors and nurses and dentists had access to them.
My dentist actually stayed closed down beyond the quarantine period simply because he couldn't get masks in stock.
After production of masks ramped up, thats when they started to say everyone should wear them.

This is exactly what it was. I remember hearing Fauci say as much a few months back. They wanted any and all PPE available for medical personnel until manufacturers could catch up.

---

Both parties have gone sideways. It's not just a GOP thing. And why the heck would you throw a vote to the democrat party? The leftist liberals who are infiltrating it hate everything about what makes this country the best in the world. At least vote Libertarian. 

And you said in another post it's people like who you were replying to that is driving you from the GOP. That's dumb. If the people you don't like can drive you away then you weren't voting for the policies in the first place. Since most people vote according to their beliefs or moral compass or whatever then you must not be sure of yours.

C'mon now, any time a new poster shows up and says, "I'm a principled conservative Republican but I just HAD to vote for Biden" you know they are lying.

OK, Slappy.  Thanks for your keen insight again.

---

Believe me... I want a traditional Republican.  But not some Trumper or QAnon idiot.  Give me a traditional Republican like John McCain and I am there.  But if the direction of the GOP and the next nominee is of the Trump/QAnon brand... I would be forced to switch parties and move to the moderate Democrats side.  This is not the same GOP it used to be 5 years ago. This is going right-wing bat-sh*t crazy.  You're going to lose all the life-long moderate Republicans if the party keeps going down that road.  I hope it changes course back to what it was Pre-Trump.

Both parties have gone sideways. It's not just a GOP thing. And why the heck would you throw a vote to the democrat party? The leftist liberals who are infiltrating it hate everything about what makes this country the best in the world. At least vote Libertarian. 

And you said in another post it's people like who you were replying to that is driving you from the GOP. That's dumb. If the people you don't like can drive you away then you weren't voting for the policies in the first place. Since most people vote according to their beliefs or moral compass or whatever then you must not be sure of yours.

You misinterpreted my post.  Its people like them that support Trump, who does not care about conservative principles or values, that are driving me and other life-long conservatives from the GOP because they are changing the values of the party.  See "Lincoln Project".  I am voting with my morals and values... you are not.  You are voting for party over principles. Trump is an idiot, a crook, and a divider. Biden is not a leftist, he is a centrist; and more of a conservative than the idiot who just lost the WH.

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This is a results-oriented business.  There are no trophies or titles given for "moral victories" or for "winning the draft".  Our record with DC is 37-86.  6-10 is our 2nd best season in 8 years of Caldwell leadership.  These are the FACTS.

C'mon now, any time a new poster shows up and says, "I'm a principled conservative Republican but I just HAD to vote for Biden" you know they are lying.

OK, Slappy.  Thanks for your keen insight again.

---

Both parties have gone sideways. It's not just a GOP thing. And why the heck would you throw a vote to the democrat party? The leftist liberals who are infiltrating it hate everything about what makes this country the best in the world. At least vote Libertarian. 

And you said in another post it's people like who you were replying to that is driving you from the GOP. That's dumb. If the people you don't like can drive you away then you weren't voting for the policies in the first place. Since most people vote according to their beliefs or moral compass or whatever then you must not be sure of yours.

You misinterpreted my post.  Its people like them that support Trump, who does not care about conservative principles or values, that are driving me and other life-long conservatives from the GOP because they are changing the values of the party.  See "Lincoln Project".  I am voting with my morals and values... you are not.  You are voting for party over principles.  Trump is an idiot, a crook, and a divider.  Biden is not a leftist, he is a centrist; and more of a conservative than the idiot who just lost the WH.

Dude, I vote Libertarian. Not a fan of Trump at all, but I can't deny things were looking up for the country before 2020. 

I never said Biden is a leftist liberal, I said they are infiltrating the D party and now he is the face of it. And Biden may be a centrist but he's not even in his right mind. Seriously. How long do you think he will be POTUS before his mental health (dementia, Alzheimer's, whatever) is too much for the party to cover and Harris takes over?

---

LOL at the MSM for thinking Trump was just going to roll over and concede. Wasn't it Hillary whom told Biden to never concede? She should be happy Trump is taking her advice.

---

C'mon now, any time a new poster shows up and says, "I'm a principled conservative Republican but I just HAD to vote for Biden" you know they are lying.

OK, Slappy.  Thanks for your keen insight again.

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Both parties have gone sideways. It's not just a GOP thing. And why the heck would you throw a vote to the democrat party? The leftist liberals who are infiltrating it hate everything about what makes this country the best in the world. At least vote Libertarian. 

And you said in another post it's people like who you were replying to that is driving you from the GOP. That's dumb. If the people you don't like can drive you away then you weren't voting for the policies in the first place. Since most people vote according to their beliefs or moral compass or whatever then you must not be sure of yours.

You misinterpreted my post.  Its people like them that support Trump, who does not care about conservative principles or values, that are driving me and other life-long conservatives from the GOP because they are changing the values of the party.  See "Lincoln Project".  I am voting with my morals and values... you are not.  You are voting for party over principles. Trump is an idiot, a crook, and a divider. Biden is not a leftist, he is a centrist; and more of a conservative than the idiot who just lost the WH.

Biden is whatever he needs to be to elected. I doubt he even knows what he will do.

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OK, Slappy.  Thanks for your keen insight again.

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You misinterpreted my post.  Its people like them that support Trump, who does not care about conservative principles or values, that are driving me and other life-long conservatives from the GOP because they are changing the values of the party.  See "Lincoln Project".  I am voting with my morals and values... you are not.  You are voting for party over principles.  Trump is an idiot, a crook, and a divider.  Biden is not a leftist, he is a centrist; and more of a conservative than the idiot who just lost the WH.

Biden is whatever he needs to be to elected. I doubt he even knows what he will do.

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If he starts appointing "progressives" to cabinet positions, you'll know.

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