Sorry I was not clear.

I am fearful Likely will measure in the 6'2 range.

While he could still be a good move TE at that height, he could not be a true Y, and his ability to be a match up problem is diminished.

Of course, my fears could be totally unfounded , in which case, nevermind.

That's cool. 

They are all listed at 6'4" so it wouldn't surprise me if they were closer to 6'3", but going all the way down to 6'2" would be a huge exaggeration for a school to pull off. It's happened before though, so anything is possible. Even if this happens, there are several really good TE's in this draft to pick from. Well just have to wait and see what they measure at the Combine and Pro Days.

I agree completely there are lots of quality TE prospects in this draft.

You hear about TEs being taken in the 3rd round like Celek, etc.  This is one of those classes you can get a quality TE prospect in the 3rd if you have a GM that knows how to identify talent.

Of course, as I think about it, even if Likely is a legit 6-4, he still wouldn't be a Y in the truest, traditional sense of the word, because he isn't a great blocker.  But with his ability and that height, he would more than compensate by being a matchup nightmare in the passing game.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

That's cool. 

They are all listed at 6'4" so it wouldn't surprise me if they were closer to 6'3", but going all the way down to 6'2" would be a huge exaggeration for a school to pull off. It's happened before though, so anything is possible. Even if this happens, there are several really good TE's in this draft to pick from. Well just have to wait and see what they measure at the Combine and Pro Days.

I agree completely there are lots of quality TE prospects in this draft.

You hear about TEs being taken in the 3rd round like Celek, etc.  This is one of those classes you can get a quality TE prospect in the 3rd if you have a GM that knows how to identify talent.

Of course, as I think about it, even if Likely is a legit 6-4, he still wouldn't be a Y in the truest, traditional sense of the word, because he isn't a great blocker.  But with his ability and that height, he would more than compensate by being a matchup nightmare in the passing game.

At this point, I don't care about blocking at all. I just wanna give Lawrence a receiver that can actually catch the doggone ball. I agree about him being a match up nightmare. Those kind of athletic, receiving TE's are rare in the NFL.

---

Top 5 players for me are:

1. Jordan Davis
2. Aidan Hutchinson
3. Traylon Burks
4. Trey McBride
5. Justyn Ross

As far as trading down? Yes. Would go back as far as the value permitted. If I can flip a 3 into a mid to late 1 while securing an additional 2 or 3 and future picks I am taking it.

Trading back would still leave you a shot at a WR or TE that could be dynamic enough to alter your approach offensively.

If no trades come up I am taking Jordan Davis or Aidan Hutchinson if they're on the board.

I would trade up late on draft night to steal a WR or TE though if possible with a fair price on the table. McBride at TE, Dotson at WR and London at WR are worth coming back up for IMHO before day two kicks off.

If they were able to land a solid player or two, even familiar faces, i.e Allen Robinson at WR, Calais Campbell at DE along with maybe Mike Williams at WR or Chris Godwin at WR you could maybe lower the importance a bit.

However, regardless if Meyer or Baalke are here in April or if it's a new overhaul. Given Khan's history of ridiculous patience with medicore results though I will assume nothing changes.

Ultimately. They must add pieces around Lawrence. Call Bill Polian for advice. Something. Anything. But they have to be all in for Lawrence.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Now I've seen Burks twice...vs. Texas A & M and just this past weekend.  Though he is not known for speed, he seemed to have no problem getting deep separation against A & M, and showed a great deal of toughness against Missouri.

Ross would seem to be a natural target, especially considering he has experience with TL, but I worry about his injury.

Thinking about trading up further, we have a billion 6th round picks.  I should hope we move up at some point in the draft.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Top 5 players for me are:

1. Jordan Davis
2. Aidan Hutchinson
3. Traylon Burks
4. Trey McBride
5. Justyn Ross

As far as trading down? Yes. Would go back as far as the value permitted. If I can flip a 3 into a mid to late 1 while securing an additional 2 or 3 and future picks I am taking it.

Trading back would still leave you a shot at a WR or TE that could be dynamic enough to alter your approach offensively.

If no trades come up I am taking Jordan Davis or Aidan Hutchinson if they're on the board.

I would trade up late on draft night to steal a WR or TE though if possible with a fair price on the table. McBride at TE, Dotson at WR and London at WR are worth coming back up for IMHO before day two kicks off.

If they were able to land a solid player or two, even familiar faces, i.e Allen Robinson at WR, Calais Campbell at DE along with maybe Mike Williams at WR or Chris Godwin at WR you could maybe lower the importance a bit.

However, regardless if Meyer or Baalke are here in April or if it's a new overhaul. Given Khan's history of ridiculous patience with medicore results though I will assume nothing changes.

Ultimately. They must add pieces around Lawrence. Call Bill Polian for advice. Something. Anything. But they have to be all in for Lawrence.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Now I've seen Burks twice...vs. Texas A & M and just this past weekend.  Though he is not known for speed, he seemed to have no problem getting deep separation against A & M, and showed a great deal of toughness against Missouri.

Ross would seem to be a natural target, especially considering he has experience with TL, but I worry about his injury.

Thinking about trading up further, we have a billion 6th round picks.  I should hope we move up at some point in the draft.

Ross scares me to death. He's had so many injuries and missed so many games, it just seems like a huge red flag. Especially the neck injury. After that one, it was speculated that he may never play football again, but miraculously he did. Now he's looking at another season ending foot injury. The worst thing we could do is draft a WR within the first 3 rounds and then have that guy never see the field, because he is hurt all the time. It's too bad Lawrence really didn't have a "go to" receiver in college. He was known for spreading the ball around.

---

It's highly unlikely that we pull off 7 straight wins and make the post season, so I figure why not talk some draft with a few questions.

1.  Irrespective of position or where they are projected to go in the draft, who are on your top 5 wish list for the Jaguars?  Mine?  Jordan Davis, Jameson Williams, Lindenbaum, Isaiah Likely, Jahon Dotson.

2.  Assuming we end up with a top 5 pick, would you be willing to trade down?  If so, how far back would you be willing to trade back?  Is there a player you would have in mind when determining how far back to trade?  In other words, below this point, your targeted player likely would not be available?

3.  Is there a player for whom you would trade up?

4.  Of the top 5 you listed in #1 above, is there a player/position you would be willing to forgo in the draft if you signed a top tier guy in free agency?

5.  If you were unable to get a trade down and were forced to pick in the top 5, who would be your target?  For me, Jordan Davis.

There are only two players on my wish list- Aidan Hutchinson and Kayvon Thibodeaux. I really believe that both of these players have the ability to be multi-year pro bowlers. Along with Josh Allen, either of these pass rushers would elevate the defense to the next level. There are still needs to be filled at linebacker, but I'd feel very good about the roster on that side of the ball.

If the Jaguars do not have a top 2 pick, they should try to trade down if Thibodeaux and Hutchinson are gone. At the current time, I don't see any other players who would be great value with the 3rd pick. I haven't seen enough of Evan Neal to determine whether he'd be worth the 3rd pick. Several mocks have him being taken by the Jags with a top 5 pick. After the Luke Joeckel fiasco, they had better be nearly certain that he can excel at LT in the NFL if they do consider him. Kyle Hamilton has also been mocked to us on some boards, but they can't afford to take a safety that high when they have much greater needs at pass rusher and offensive line. Jenkins and Cisco can be a good tandem once Cisco gets the playing time he deserves. 

There is no way I'd trade up for our first pick. This team cannot afford to lose any high draft picks due to the state of the current roster. The price to move up in round 1 would be too high. However, I would strongly consider moving back up to the end of round 1 or the very top of round 2 if there is one receiver or offensive lineman who they love and is surprisingly still on the board. If they only move up a few spots, the price wouldn't be too bad. 

Free agency will obviously have some impact on who they draft. If they land a tackle like Armstead (highly unlikely), I'd pass on a tackle in rounds one or two. If they sign a top receiver like Godwin, that wouldn't change my opinion that they should take another one in round 2 where a very good player will be available. A receiving corps of Godwin, Bell, Shenault, M. Jones and Agnew would be very solid. If Chark comes back for one more season and stayed healthy, this group would be hard for most defenses to handle.

---

I agree completely there are lots of quality TE prospects in this draft.

You hear about TEs being taken in the 3rd round like Celek, etc.  This is one of those classes you can get a quality TE prospect in the 3rd if you have a GM that knows how to identify talent.

Of course, as I think about it, even if Likely is a legit 6-4, he still wouldn't be a Y in the truest, traditional sense of the word, because he isn't a great blocker.  But with his ability and that height, he would more than compensate by being a matchup nightmare in the passing game.

At this point, I don't care about blocking at all. I just wanna give Lawrence a receiver that can actually catch the doggone ball. I agree about him being a match up nightmare. Those kind of athletic, receiving TE's are rare in the NFL.

I think a TEs receiving ability generally has more value to a modern offense than his blocking ability.  When you consider TL's need to have credible receiving targets, we are in lockstep agreement on that point. 

My primary concern about blocking is that with UM/Bevell, we're  still not too sure what identity this offense will have.

After ignoring the running game early on, the team seems more bent on running the ball.  If this continues (and there is reason for it to continue even assuming TL has better targets/more speed at WR next year), a true Y who can block, catch and run might be preferable.  Also, having a good all around Y can have formation benefits.  In other words, with a Y that can block, you can give a run look be convincing you may run, yet still pass, whereas a TE that isn't a viable blocker doesn't give that benefit much (though Jay Novacek shows that you can have that and still be a successful, even dominant running game).

All that said, a primary goal should be to give Trevor Lawrence guys who can win in the passing game, and reliably catch his passes.  Any blocking benefit is gravy to me.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

It's highly unlikely that we pull off 7 straight wins and make the post season, so I figure why not talk some draft with a few questions.

1.  Irrespective of position or where they are projected to go in the draft, who are on your top 5 wish list for the Jaguars?  Mine?  Jordan Davis, Jameson Williams, Lindenbaum, Isaiah Likely, Jahon Dotson.

2.  Assuming we end up with a top 5 pick, would you be willing to trade down?  If so, how far back would you be willing to trade back?  Is there a player you would have in mind when determining how far back to trade?  In other words, below this point, your targeted player likely would not be available?

3.  Is there a player for whom you would trade up?

4.  Of the top 5 you listed in #1 above, is there a player/position you would be willing to forgo in the draft if you signed a top tier guy in free agency?

5.  If you were unable to get a trade down and were forced to pick in the top 5, who would be your target?  For me, Jordan Davis.

There are only two players on my wish list- Aidan Hutchinson and Kayvon Thibodeaux. I really believe that both of these players have the ability to be multi-year pro bowlers. Along with Josh Allen, either of these pass rushers would elevate the defense to the next level. There are still needs to be filled at linebacker, but I'd feel very good about the roster on that side of the ball.

If the Jaguars do not have a top 2 pick, they should try to trade down if Thibodeaux and Hutchinson are gone. At the current time, I don't see any other players who would be great value with the 3rd pick. I haven't seen enough of Evan Neal to determine whether he'd be worth the 3rd pick. Several mocks have him being taken by the Jags with a top 5 pick. After the Luke Joeckel fiasco, they had better be nearly certain that he can excel at LT in the NFL if they do consider him. Kyle Hamilton has also been mocked to us on some boards, but they can't afford to take a safety that high when they have much greater needs at pass rusher and offensive line. Jenkins and Cisco can be a good tandem once Cisco gets the playing time he deserves. 

There is no way I'd trade up for our first pick. This team cannot afford to lose any high draft picks due to the state of the current roster. The price to move up in round 1 would be too high. However, I would strongly consider moving back up to the end of round 1 or the very top of round 2 if there is one receiver or offensive lineman who they love and is surprisingly still on the board. If they only move up a few spots, the price wouldn't be too bad. 

Free agency will obviously have some impact on who they draft. If they land a tackle like Armstead (highly unlikely), I'd pass on a tackle in rounds one or two. If they sign a top receiver like Godwin, that wouldn't change my opinion that they should take another one in round 2 where a very good player will be available. A receiving corps of Godwin, Bell, Shenault, M. Jones and Agnew would be very solid. If Chark comes back for one more season and stayed healthy, this group would be hard for most defenses to handle.

Earlier, I left the impression with someone that I am somewhat averse to taking a pass rusher early.  I want to emphasize that although I think a competent GM can find a 3-4 OLB in the mid rounds, a dominant 3-4 OLB is well worth a top 5 pick.  Lawrence Taylor, Cornelius Bennett, Derrick Thomas and Von Miller are examples of 3-4 edge rushers well worth the top 5 pick.  You could add Aldon Smith to that analysis were he not for his off field issues.  He had a huge initial impact with the 49ers. 
Certainly the Jaguars could benefit from a guy of that caliber.  We need another catalyst on defense.  Having an effective edge rusher opposite Allen will make Allen and the interior DL more effective rushing the passer.  Considering we have problems getting off the field defensively, considering we have created so few turnovers, a defensive catalyst is very important to any future success we want to have. 

Regarding trading up, I do not, in any way, envision trading up into the top 5.  Aside from the fact I think we'll have a top 3 pick by the time the season is over and the draft order is set and there won't be any need to trade up any higher than we are, I'm not sure anyone would be worth the cost to move up one spot.  On top of that, I think the team is more apt to trade back out of the top 5 than they would to trade further up into the top 5.  When I mention trading up, I am envisioning trading up into the bottom half of the first round or possibly in the bottom half of the second.  We currently have two 3rd round picks (our own and Carolina's), maybe a couple of 5th round picks, maybe four 6th round picks, and I think a couple of 7th round picks.  While we need numbers for depth, more importantly we need impact,  Impact is more likely to be gained with higher draft picks.

As for non edge rusher candidates for the top 5, I have some mixed feelings.  Given how awful Taylor has been, if you can convince me Neal could play RT effectively, I might consider him.  But there are three issues with that.  One, I'm not sure he has the feet needed to succeed at LT.  Second, there is the positional value argument that you should not spend a top 5 pick on a RT when you can find RTs later.  Third, there's the issue of Walker Little.  Because he has gotten so little playing time this year, we don't know what he can do.  He had one last minute start at LT, and looked shaky, but it seems like he has the innate ability to succeed at T if given good enough coaching and reps to develop.  If he can play either T position effectively, do you want to replicate that pick in the top 5?  If we deem Little good at RT, do we want to take Neal in the top 5 if he is a RT and not a LT?  If Little CAN play LT effectively, do we take Neal and shift him to RT, even if he's better at LT?  What if the team decided to retain Cam Robinson another year because they still aren't sure about Little?!?  As for Hamilton, I've gotten so sick of Jenkins' penalties I am almost entertaining the idea of being okay with Hamilton higher than I might otherwise want to draft a S-though I'd prefer to trade back a few spots to take him if it came to that.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Now I've seen Burks twice...vs. Texas A & M and just this past weekend.  Though he is not known for speed, he seemed to have no problem getting deep separation against A & M, and showed a great deal of toughness against Missouri.

Ross would seem to be a natural target, especially considering he has experience with TL, but I worry about his injury.

Thinking about trading up further, we have a billion 6th round picks.  I should hope we move up at some point in the draft.

Ross scares me to death. He's had so many injuries and missed so many games, it just seems like a huge red flag. Especially the neck injury. After that one, it was speculated that he may never play football again, but miraculously he did. Now he's looking at another season ending foot injury. The worst thing we could do is draft a WR within the first 3 rounds and then have that guy never see the field, because he is hurt all the time. It's too bad Lawrence really didn't have a "go to" receiver in college. He was known for spreading the ball around.

I feel the same way about Ross.  Maybe if Ross slips into the 4th or 5th round, maybe take a chance on him.  Otherwise?  I stay far away from him.

As for not having any go to receivers there at Clemson, he DID have Tee Higgins for a couple of years. I'd love to have Higgins here now.  Aside from that,sometimes not having a true go to receiver can help a QBs development.  I remember when Favre first got to Green Bay.  Sterling Sharpe was healthy and a truly dominant WR.  There was some thought that Favre had grown too reliant upon him.  but then when Sharpe got hurt and his career ended, Favre was forced to go through his progressions more to look to other WRs.  Soon, guys like Robert Brooks and Antonio Freeman developed into viable targets, and Favre eventually developed into an MVP.  Now TL doesn't have the go to WR, but none of his other WRs are any good either.  I' prefer TL have a dominant WR to throw to, but I'd also like him to have a slew of good WRs to rely upon as well.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Ross scares me to death. He's had so many injuries and missed so many games, it just seems like a huge red flag. Especially the neck injury. After that one, it was speculated that he may never play football again, but miraculously he did. Now he's looking at another season ending foot injury. The worst thing we could do is draft a WR within the first 3 rounds and then have that guy never see the field, because he is hurt all the time. It's too bad Lawrence really didn't have a "go to" receiver in college. He was known for spreading the ball around.

I feel the same way about Ross.  Maybe if Ross slips into the 4th or 5th round, maybe take a chance on him.  Otherwise?  I stay far away from him.

As for not having any go to receivers there at Clemson, he DID have Tee Higgins for a couple of years. I'd love to have Higgins here now.  Aside from that,sometimes not having a true go to receiver can help a QBs development.  I remember when Favre first got to Green Bay.  Sterling Sharpe was healthy and a truly dominant WR.  There was some thought that Favre had grown too reliant upon him.  but then when Sharpe got hurt and his career ended, Favre was forced to go through his progressions more to look to other WRs.  Soon, guys like Robert Brooks and Antonio Freeman developed into viable targets, and Favre eventually developed into an MVP.  Now TL doesn't have the go to WR, but none of his other WRs are any good either.  I' prefer TL have a dominant WR to throw to, but I'd also like him to have a slew of good WRs to rely upon as well.

I totally forgot about Higgins coming from Clemson! What was I thinking? He's a guy I've always liked a lot. In fact, I wonder if Cincinnati would be willing to trade him now that they have Chase and Boyd? They are loaded at WR right now and we could really use Higgins. I'd be more than happy to give up a draft pick or two to get him. He was a sub 4.4/40 guy in college, so he's definitely got the wheels and he has familiarity with Lawrence. In fact, he had two years where as a sophomore and a junior where he and Trevor hooked up for a combined 25 touchdowns and 2000 yards receiving. The more I think about this, the more I believe this may be the way to go. I'd definitely make an offer to Cincinnati and see what happens. Maybe a 2nd and a 4th.

---

There are only two players on my wish list- Aidan Hutchinson and Kayvon Thibodeaux. I really believe that both of these players have the ability to be multi-year pro bowlers. Along with Josh Allen, either of these pass rushers would elevate the defense to the next level. There are still needs to be filled at linebacker, but I'd feel very good about the roster on that side of the ball.

If the Jaguars do not have a top 2 pick, they should try to trade down if Thibodeaux and Hutchinson are gone. At the current time, I don't see any other players who would be great value with the 3rd pick. I haven't seen enough of Evan Neal to determine whether he'd be worth the 3rd pick. Several mocks have him being taken by the Jags with a top 5 pick. After the Luke Joeckel fiasco, they had better be nearly certain that he can excel at LT in the NFL if they do consider him. Kyle Hamilton has also been mocked to us on some boards, but they can't afford to take a safety that high when they have much greater needs at pass rusher and offensive line. Jenkins and Cisco can be a good tandem once Cisco gets the playing time he deserves. 

There is no way I'd trade up for our first pick. This team cannot afford to lose any high draft picks due to the state of the current roster. The price to move up in round 1 would be too high. However, I would strongly consider moving back up to the end of round 1 or the very top of round 2 if there is one receiver or offensive lineman who they love and is surprisingly still on the board. If they only move up a few spots, the price wouldn't be too bad. 

Free agency will obviously have some impact on who they draft. If they land a tackle like Armstead (highly unlikely), I'd pass on a tackle in rounds one or two. If they sign a top receiver like Godwin, that wouldn't change my opinion that they should take another one in round 2 where a very good player will be available. A receiving corps of Godwin, Bell, Shenault, M. Jones and Agnew would be very solid. If Chark comes back for one more season and stayed healthy, this group would be hard for most defenses to handle.

Earlier, I left the impression with someone that I am somewhat averse to taking a pass rusher early.  I want to emphasize that although I think a competent GM can find a 3-4 OLB in the mid rounds, a dominant 3-4 OLB is well worth a top 5 pick.  Lawrence Taylor, Cornelius Bennett, Derrick Thomas and Von Miller are examples of 3-4 edge rushers well worth the top 5 pick.  You could add Aldon Smith to that analysis were he not for his off field issues.  He had a huge initial impact with the 49ers. 
Certainly the Jaguars could benefit from a guy of that caliber.  We need another catalyst on defense.  Having an effective edge rusher opposite Allen will make Allen and the interior DL more effective rushing the passer.  Considering we have problems getting off the field defensively, considering we have created so few turnovers, a defensive catalyst is very important to any future success we want to have. 

Regarding trading up, I do not, in any way, envision trading up into the top 5.  Aside from the fact I think we'll have a top 3 pick by the time the season is over and the draft order is set and there won't be any need to trade up any higher than we are, I'm not sure anyone would be worth the cost to move up one spot.  On top of that, I think the team is more apt to trade back out of the top 5 than they would to trade further up into the top 5.  When I mention trading up, I am envisioning trading up into the bottom half of the first round or possibly in the bottom half of the second.  We currently have two 3rd round picks (our own and Carolina's), maybe a couple of 5th round picks, maybe four 6th round picks, and I think a couple of 7th round picks.  While we need numbers for depth, more importantly we need impact,  Impact is more likely to be gained with higher draft picks.

As for non edge rusher candidates for the top 5, I have some mixed feelings.  Given how awful Taylor has been, if you can convince me Neal could play RT effectively, I might consider him.  But there are three issues with that.  One, I'm not sure he has the feet needed to succeed at LT.  Second, there is the positional value argument that you should not spend a top 5 pick on a RT when you can find RTs later.  Third, there's the issue of Walker Little.  Because he has gotten so little playing time this year, we don't know what he can do.  He had one last minute start at LT, and looked shaky, but it seems like he has the innate ability to succeed at T if given good enough coaching and reps to develop.  If he can play either T position effectively, do you want to replicate that pick in the top 5?  If we deem Little good at RT, do we want to take Neal in the top 5 if he is a RT and not a LT?  If Little CAN play LT effectively, do we take Neal and shift him to RT, even if he's better at LT?  What if the team decided to retain Cam Robinson another year because they still aren't sure about Little?!?  As for Hamilton, I've gotten so sick of Jenkins' penalties I am almost entertaining the idea of being okay with Hamilton higher than I might otherwise want to draft a S-though I'd prefer to trade back a few spots to take him if it came to that.

Haha, methinks you refer to me on the edge rusher notion. My comment was mostly tongue-in-cheek, all good though. I certainly agree with you that IF we pick #3 we don't trade up one for Hutch or Thibs but if one of them IS there when we pick then pounce on him. But if they are both gone then trading back becomes, IMO, our best move. Why? Because Somebody is going to be desperate for a QB, maybe several somebodies, Pittsburgh comes to mind. Atlanta too. Our best chance of building a winner is through the draft. As with you and OLM I agree that after these two Edge Rushers the drop off  is noticeable for the rest of the draft. At least at this point anyway. Moving back a few spots, maybe as many as 10 could garner us some additional high picks for 22 and 23. Lord knows we need them. 

The biggest need on the Oline is not Taylor. He is the second. Biggest is replacing Warhop. I think whoever is the line coach or Urbz himself should tell Little learn to pay Rt. Period. Tag Cam for one more year and get the LT in 23. Meanwhile get Guards and a Center in the mid rounds.  The entire interior of the line is up for replacement imo. Norwell and Cann are probably either gone or should be. I really like Linder but he is hurt too often and we need to draft his eventual replacement this coming draft.

WR1 should be our first priority. This needs to get fixed either in FA or the draft. Personally, I think we should go after a premier WR1 in FA AND draft one.  

ILB is another big need. While I like Myles Jack a lot, he is out of position at ILB. His best yeat was as a SAM opposite Telvin but that was in a 4-3 defense in 2017. Either move him to OLB opposite Josh Allen or move him via trade. Wilson is decent in the run game but we need better pass coverage from both ILB positions. The secondary seems to be performing better with zone coverage of late. Campbell had his best game Sunday by far and it seems it had a lot to do with playing zone. He finally looked like a second round DB. Maybe not that high in the second round but second round nonetheless.

So for my money we take Thibs or Hutch if one is there or we trade back and get WR1 or perhaps Ojabo (agian an Edge guy I know). Then in the second we flip that script.  That leaves a couple 3s and enough 6s to get to couple of 4s and we address Interior O-Line and ILB and more receivers or another TE. More DBs are always needed too.

---

I feel the same way about Ross.  Maybe if Ross slips into the 4th or 5th round, maybe take a chance on him.  Otherwise?  I stay far away from him.

As for not having any go to receivers there at Clemson, he DID have Tee Higgins for a couple of years. I'd love to have Higgins here now.  Aside from that,sometimes not having a true go to receiver can help a QBs development.  I remember when Favre first got to Green Bay.  Sterling Sharpe was healthy and a truly dominant WR.  There was some thought that Favre had grown too reliant upon him.  but then when Sharpe got hurt and his career ended, Favre was forced to go through his progressions more to look to other WRs.  Soon, guys like Robert Brooks and Antonio Freeman developed into viable targets, and Favre eventually developed into an MVP.  Now TL doesn't have the go to WR, but none of his other WRs are any good either.  I' prefer TL have a dominant WR to throw to, but I'd also like him to have a slew of good WRs to rely upon as well.

I totally forgot about Higgins coming from Clemson! What was I thinking? He's a guy I've always liked a lot. In fact, I wonder if Cincinnati would be willing to trade him now that they have Chase and Boyd? They are loaded at WR right now and we could really use Higgins. I'd be more than happy to give up a draft pick or two to get him. He was a sub 4.4/40 guy in college, so he's definitely got the wheels and he has familiarity with Lawrence. In fact, he had two years where as a sophomore and a junior where he and Trevor hooked up for a combined 25 touchdowns and 2000 yards receiving. The more I think about this, the more I believe this may be the way to go. I'd definitely make an offer to Cincinnati and see what happens. Maybe a 2nd and a 4th.

I think it will have to wait a year; this year's deadline has elapsed, he's cheap, and there's little reason for them to move him unless he demands a trade. next offseason will be the final year of his contract, and then they'd likely be willing to move on if he either wants more than #2 money or a shot to be the 1 somewhere else. I don't see them considering offers this offseason.

---

I totally forgot about Higgins coming from Clemson! What was I thinking? He's a guy I've always liked a lot. In fact, I wonder if Cincinnati would be willing to trade him now that they have Chase and Boyd? They are loaded at WR right now and we could really use Higgins. I'd be more than happy to give up a draft pick or two to get him. He was a sub 4.4/40 guy in college, so he's definitely got the wheels and he has familiarity with Lawrence. In fact, he had two years where as a sophomore and a junior where he and Trevor hooked up for a combined 25 touchdowns and 2000 yards receiving. The more I think about this, the more I believe this may be the way to go. I'd definitely make an offer to Cincinnati and see what happens. Maybe a 2nd and a 4th.

I think it will have to wait a year; this year's deadline has elapsed, he's cheap, and there's little reason for them to move him unless he demands a trade. next offseason will be the final year of his contract, and then they'd likely be willing to move on if he either wants more than #2 money or a shot to be the 1 somewhere else. I don't see them considering offers this offseason.

You never know unless you try.

---

I feel the same way about Ross.  Maybe if Ross slips into the 4th or 5th round, maybe take a chance on him.  Otherwise?  I stay far away from him.

As for not having any go to receivers there at Clemson, he DID have Tee Higgins for a couple of years. I'd love to have Higgins here now.  Aside from that,sometimes not having a true go to receiver can help a QBs development.  I remember when Favre first got to Green Bay.  Sterling Sharpe was healthy and a truly dominant WR.  There was some thought that Favre had grown too reliant upon him.  but then when Sharpe got hurt and his career ended, Favre was forced to go through his progressions more to look to other WRs.  Soon, guys like Robert Brooks and Antonio Freeman developed into viable targets, and Favre eventually developed into an MVP.  Now TL doesn't have the go to WR, but none of his other WRs are any good either.  I' prefer TL have a dominant WR to throw to, but I'd also like him to have a slew of good WRs to rely upon as well.

I totally forgot about Higgins coming from Clemson! What was I thinking? He's a guy I've always liked a lot. In fact, I wonder if Cincinnati would be willing to trade him now that they have Chase and Boyd? They are loaded at WR right now and we could really use Higgins. I'd be more than happy to give up a draft pick or two to get him. He was a sub 4.4/40 guy in college, so he's definitely got the wheels and he has familiarity with Lawrence. In fact, he had two years where as a sophomore and a junior where he and Trevor hooked up for a combined 25 touchdowns and 2000 yards receiving. The more I think about this, the more I believe this may be the way to go. I'd definitely make an offer to Cincinnati and see what happens. Maybe a 2nd and a 4th.

(Emphasis added)

While I like the thought of Higgins as a Jaguar, I join the consensus opinion that there is no way the Bengals would trade him at this point.  The foursome of Burrow, Chase, Higgins and Boyd gives the Bengals their best passing attack since 2005 Palmer, Chad Johnson, TJ Houshmanzadeh, Chris Henry.  (Sub question:  Which group was better, the current group or that 2005 group?)  Their passing attack is why they are leading their division now and are likely to reach the playoffs this year.  Now, the Bengals just need to add to the OL and improve the defense, and they don't need a top five pick to do that.  Trading away Higgins dramatically reduces the effectiveness of that group.  Right now they are close to an elite passing attack.  With another year they will be there.  Trading Higgins away would be a step back from elite status.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

I totally forgot about Higgins coming from Clemson! What was I thinking? He's a guy I've always liked a lot. In fact, I wonder if Cincinnati would be willing to trade him now that they have Chase and Boyd? They are loaded at WR right now and we could really use Higgins. I'd be more than happy to give up a draft pick or two to get him. He was a sub 4.4/40 guy in college, so he's definitely got the wheels and he has familiarity with Lawrence. In fact, he had two years where as a sophomore and a junior where he and Trevor hooked up for a combined 25 touchdowns and 2000 yards receiving. The more I think about this, the more I believe this may be the way to go. I'd definitely make an offer to Cincinnati and see what happens. Maybe a 2nd and a 4th.

(Emphasis added)

While I like the thought of Higgins as a Jaguar, I join the consensus opinion that there is no way the Bengals would trade him at this point.  The foursome of Burrow, Chase, Higgins and Boyd gives the Bengals their best passing attack since 2005 Palmer, Chad Johnson, TJ Houshmanzadeh, Chris Henry.  (Sub question:  Which group was better, the current group or that 2005 group?)  Their passing attack is why they are leading their division now and are likely to reach the playoffs this year.  Now, the Bengals just need to add to the OL and improve the defense, and they don't need a top five pick to do that.  Trading away Higgins dramatically reduces the effectiveness of that group.  Right now they are close to an elite passing attack.  With another year they will be there.  Trading Higgins away would be a step back from elite status.

IMO, the current group is way better. With that said, they also have two very good receivers (Auden Tate and Stanley Morgan) waiting in the wings. They could step into that 3rd receiver role and Boyd could move to #2 without missing a beat. They also could use one of the draft picks they get from us to add another receiver as well. I wonder what the equivalent would be if we gave them our 2nd round pick and swapped them first rounders? I'd only do that deal if we picked 3rd or lower though. If we have a chance at Aiden Hutchinson or Kayvon Thibodeaux, we gotta take one of them, but outside of those two, I'd wanna trade down anyway.

---

(Emphasis added)

While I like the thought of Higgins as a Jaguar, I join the consensus opinion that there is no way the Bengals would trade him at this point.  The foursome of Burrow, Chase, Higgins and Boyd gives the Bengals their best passing attack since 2005 Palmer, Chad Johnson, TJ Houshmanzadeh, Chris Henry.  (Sub question:  Which group was better, the current group or that 2005 group?)  Their passing attack is why they are leading their division now and are likely to reach the playoffs this year.  Now, the Bengals just need to add to the OL and improve the defense, and they don't need a top five pick to do that.  Trading away Higgins dramatically reduces the effectiveness of that group.  Right now they are close to an elite passing attack.  With another year they will be there.  Trading Higgins away would be a step back from elite status.

IMO, the current group is way better. With that said, they also have two very good receivers (Auden Tate and Stanley Morgan) waiting in the wings. They could step into that 3rd receiver role and Boyd could move to #2 without missing a beat. They also could use one of the draft picks they get from us to add another receiver as well. I wonder what the equivalent would be if we gave them our 2nd round pick and swapped them first rounders? I'd only do that deal if we picked 3rd or lower though. If we have a chance at Aiden Hutchinson or Kayvon Thibodeaux, we gotta take one of them, but outside of those two, I'd wanna trade down anyway.

I don't know if I agree with your "way better" description of the current group over the 2005 group.  I think that 2005 group was amazing.  But if your characterization is true, the Bengals have even less incentive to break them up by trading Higgins.  If they are way better, they are elite or close to it.  That will keep them contending for years.

Unless a QB shoots up the draft boards, I don't see a trade back while remaining in the top ten, nor do I see many teams in the teens or below willing to pay a huge price to move up.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

IMO, the current group is way better. With that said, they also have two very good receivers (Auden Tate and Stanley Morgan) waiting in the wings. They could step into that 3rd receiver role and Boyd could move to #2 without missing a beat. They also could use one of the draft picks they get from us to add another receiver as well. I wonder what the equivalent would be if we gave them our 2nd round pick and swapped them first rounders? I'd only do that deal if we picked 3rd or lower though. If we have a chance at Aiden Hutchinson or Kayvon Thibodeaux, we gotta take one of them, but outside of those two, I'd wanna trade down anyway.

I don't know if I agree with your "way better" description of the current group over the 2005 group.  I think that 2005 group was amazing.  But if your characterization is true, the Bengals have even less incentive to break them up by trading Higgins.  If they are way better, they are elite or close to it.  That will keep them contending for years.

Unless a QB shoots up the draft boards, I don't see a trade back while remaining in the top ten, nor do I see many teams in the teens or below willing to pay a huge price to move up.

I honestly don't care whether we remain in the top 10 or not. After Hutchinson and Thibodeaux, the talent level is pretty much the same all the way to about #20. That isn't to say there won't be talent available, there will definitely be. It's more a testament to how deep this draft is at a variety of positions. IMO, I trade back no matter what. I take the highest offer no matter what it is, because if we are sitting at #3 and Hutchinson and Thibodeaux are off the board, I don't want that pick at all. There is no one available worthy of the pick, which would match the value of the selection. If the best offer we get would be to move down to #15, I take it, because the players left on the board match the value of the #15 pick. I don't see an elite player that would match the #3 pick. Everyone after Hutchinson and Thibodeaux would seem like a reach, imo.

---

I don't know if I agree with your "way better" description of the current group over the 2005 group.  I think that 2005 group was amazing.  But if your characterization is true, the Bengals have even less incentive to break them up by trading Higgins.  If they are way better, they are elite or close to it.  That will keep them contending for years.

Unless a QB shoots up the draft boards, I don't see a trade back while remaining in the top ten, nor do I see many teams in the teens or below willing to pay a huge price to move up.

I honestly don't care whether we remain in the top 10 or not. After Hutchinson and Thibodeaux, the talent level is pretty much the same all the way to about #20. That isn't to say there won't be talent available, there will definitely be. It's more a testament to how deep this draft is at a variety of positions. IMO, I trade back no matter what. I take the highest offer no matter what it is, because if we are sitting at #3 and Hutchinson and Thibodeaux are off the board, I don't want that pick at all. There is no one available worthy of the pick, which would match the value of the selection. If the best offer we get would be to move down to #15, I take it, because the players left on the board match the value of the #15 pick. I don't see an elite player that would match the #3 pick. Everyone after Hutchinson and Thibodeaux would seem like a reach, imo.

So then you would be fine with a trade down like the Raiders did in 2013, where they went down from 3 to 11, getting only a 2nd round pick in return?

https://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2013/story...de-tracker

I recall the Raiders getting bashed by some for getting so little in return for such a move.  I can't imagine Baalke would fare any better, even though most of this board have clamored for the team to trade back for years.

---

I don't know if I agree with your "way better" description of the current group over the 2005 group.  I think that 2005 group was amazing.  But if your characterization is true, the Bengals have even less incentive to break them up by trading Higgins.  If they are way better, they are elite or close to it.  That will keep them contending for years.

Unless a QB shoots up the draft boards, I don't see a trade back while remaining in the top ten, nor do I see many teams in the teens or below willing to pay a huge price to move up.

I honestly don't care whether we remain in the top 10 or not. After Hutchinson and Thibodeaux, the talent level is pretty much the same all the way to about #20. That isn't to say there won't be talent available, there will definitely be. It's more a testament to how deep this draft is at a variety of positions. IMO, I trade back no matter what. I take the highest offer no matter what it is, because if we are sitting at #3 and Hutchinson and Thibodeaux are off the board, I don't want that pick at all. There is no one available worthy of the pick, which would match the value of the selection. If the best offer we get would be to move down to #15, I take it, because the players left on the board match the value of the #15 pick. I don't see an elite player that would match the #3 pick. Everyone after Hutchinson and Thibodeaux would seem like a reach, imo.

So then you would be fine with a trade down like the Raiders did in 2013, where they went down from 3 to 11, getting only a 2nd round pick in return?

https://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2013/story...de-tracker

I recall the Raiders getting bashed by some for getting so little in return for such a move.  I can't imagine Baalke would fare any better, even though most of this board have clamored for the team to trade back for years.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

I honestly don't care whether we remain in the top 10 or not. After Hutchinson and Thibodeaux, the talent level is pretty much the same all the way to about #20. That isn't to say there won't be talent available, there will definitely be. It's more a testament to how deep this draft is at a variety of positions. IMO, I trade back no matter what. I take the highest offer no matter what it is, because if we are sitting at #3 and Hutchinson and Thibodeaux are off the board, I don't want that pick at all. There is no one available worthy of the pick, which would match the value of the selection. If the best offer we get would be to move down to #15, I take it, because the players left on the board match the value of the #15 pick. I don't see an elite player that would match the #3 pick. Everyone after Hutchinson and Thibodeaux would seem like a reach, imo.

So then you would be fine with a trade down like the Raiders did in 2013, where they went down from 3 to 11, getting only a 2nd round pick in return?

https://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2013/story...de-tracker

I recall the Raiders getting bashed by some for getting so little in return for such a move.  I can't imagine Baalke would fare any better, even though most of this board have clamored for the team to trade back for years.

---

I honestly don't care whether we remain in the top 10 or not. After Hutchinson and Thibodeaux, the talent level is pretty much the same all the way to about #20. That isn't to say there won't be talent available, there will definitely be. It's more a testament to how deep this draft is at a variety of positions. IMO, I trade back no matter what. I take the highest offer no matter what it is, because if we are sitting at #3 and Hutchinson and Thibodeaux are off the board, I don't want that pick at all. There is no one available worthy of the pick, which would match the value of the selection. If the best offer we get would be to move down to #15, I take it, because the players left on the board match the value of the #15 pick. I don't see an elite player that would match the #3 pick. Everyone after Hutchinson and Thibodeaux would seem like a reach, imo.

So then you would be fine with a trade down like the Raiders did in 2013, where they went down from 3 to 11, getting only a 2nd round pick in return?

https://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2013/story...de-tracker

I recall the Raiders getting bashed by some for getting so little in return for such a move.  I can't imagine Baalke would fare any better, even though most of this board have clamored for the team to trade back for years.

Honestly, yes. I don't take much stock in the NFL trade value chart. If we got a 2nd round pick to move to #11, that's another potential starter we could add to our lineup and I wouldn't have to reach for a player at #3 that I don't believe warrants such a high selection. Would I try to get more? Of course, but if it didn't happen, I take the deal and move forward. Honestly, if I stay at #3, I'm probably gonna be taking from the same group of players I would be picking from had I gone to #11 anyway. I just don't see any elite players other than Hutchinson and Thibodeaux that don't have red flags like a history of injuries. I refuse to select a player that high who is coming off a season ending injury or who has a history of not being able to stay on the field.

---

So then you would be fine with a trade down like the Raiders did in 2013, where they went down from 3 to 11, getting only a 2nd round pick in return?

https://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2013/story...de-tracker

I recall the Raiders getting bashed by some for getting so little in return for such a move.  I can't imagine Baalke would fare any better, even though most of this board have clamored for the team to trade back for years.

---

So then you would be fine with a trade down like the Raiders did in 2013, where they went down from 3 to 11, getting only a 2nd round pick in return?

https://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2013/story...de-tracker

I recall the Raiders getting bashed by some for getting so little in return for such a move.  I can't imagine Baalke would fare any better, even though most of this board have clamored for the team to trade back for years.

Honestly, yes. I don't take much stock in the NFL trade value chart. If we got a 2nd round pick to move to #11, that's another potential starter we could add to our lineup and I wouldn't have to reach for a player at #3 that I don't believe warrants such a high selection. Would I try to get more? Of course, but if it didn't happen, I take the deal and move forward. Honestly, if I stay at #3, I'm probably gonna be taking from the same group of players I would be picking from had I gone to #11 anyway. I just don't see any elite players other than Hutchinson and Thibodeaux that don't have red flags like a history of injuries. I refuse to select a player that high who is coming off a season ending injury or who has a history of not being able to stay on the field.

FYI, Rich Eisen had us picking 2nd in the draft order as of yesterday.

Of the teams picking below us that need a QB, the Eagles (possibly), the Giants (possibly), Atlanta, Carolina, New Orleans, Pittsburgh, Denver and Washington (19th IIRC) are all on the list.   I think 19 is too far down to move in one trade.  If we somehow traded back 2-3 times and wound up at 19, I might be okay with that, but to move back that far, we'd better end up with a ton of day two picks when all is said and done.

Question:  As I recall, your aversion to Neal stems from doubt that he can play LT in the NFL, even though he just gave up his one sack of the year this past weekend.  Buut we're actualy better at LT with Robinson than we are at RT with Taylor.  Neal has experience playing some RT, and he has the build for it.  If you were sold he could play RT at a high level, would you consider him at 3?

To me, the urgency we felt to upgrade the OL remains, and that makes me more open to Neal as a possibility.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Honestly, yes. I don't take much stock in the NFL trade value chart. If we got a 2nd round pick to move to #11, that's another potential starter we could add to our lineup and I wouldn't have to reach for a player at #3 that I don't believe warrants such a high selection. Would I try to get more? Of course, but if it didn't happen, I take the deal and move forward. Honestly, if I stay at #3, I'm probably gonna be taking from the same group of players I would be picking from had I gone to #11 anyway. I just don't see any elite players other than Hutchinson and Thibodeaux that don't have red flags like a history of injuries. I refuse to select a player that high who is coming off a season ending injury or who has a history of not being able to stay on the field.

FYI, Rich Eisen had us picking 2nd in the draft order as of yesterday.

Of the teams picking below us that need a QB, the Eagles (possibly), the Giants (possibly), Atlanta, Carolina, New Orleans, Pittsburgh, Denver and Washington (19th IIRC) are all on the list.   I think 19 is too far down to move in one trade.  If we somehow traded back 2-3 times and wound up at 19, I might be okay with that, but to move back that far, we'd better end up with a ton of day two picks when all is said and done.

Question:  As I recall, your aversion to Neal stems from doubt that he can play LT in the NFL, even though he just gave up his one sack of the year this past weekend.  Buut we're actualy better at LT with Robinson than we are at RT with Taylor.  Neal has experience playing some RT, and he has the build for it.  If you were sold he could play RT at a high level, would you consider him at 3?

To me, the urgency we felt to upgrade the OL remains, and that makes me more open to Neal as a possibility.

I could be wrong, but I don't see the Eagles or Giants using high picks on a QB. I think they're gonna give their current QB's one more year. Atlanta and Carolina are desperate for a new QB. They would be most likely to trade up imo. I see New Orleans re-signing Jameis Winston. He started to hit his stride before the injury. They just need to get him some receivers to throw to. Call me crazy, but I think Aaron Rodgers is gonna be a Steeler next year and Roethlisberger will retire. Big Ben is a shell of what he once was. His arm looks completely "ragged out." Denver is starting to look like a pretty good team right now, so they may stick with Teddy. Washington desperately needs a QB as well. 

No. I don't believe in taking RT's that early. Good RT's can be had much later in the draft. We wasted a high second round pick on Jawaan Taylor and look what we got. I'm looking in that 3rd to 4th round range to find an OT, since I don't see any LT's in this draft worth wasting a pick on in rounds 1 or 2. One player I'm interested in is Max Mitchell of Louisiana he's been a key contributor to the team's great success this season and he has extensive experience at both OT positions. 

I'm not a fan of Neal at all. He's not even an option for me. I really don't think he offers much more than Robinson does as a LT. Yes, we screwed ourselves by not replacing our OT's much earlier when we realized they were not the players we drafted them to be, but as long as we keep Warhop, I don't see much success with who ever we put in there. He can't coach his way out of a wet paper bag. He needs to be replaced with someone competent. I still believe that franchising Robinson is a real option. He's at least serviceable. Taylor has always been and will continue to be a turnstile at RT until he is replaced.

---