Okay, HB, I promise I won't pound this thing into the ground, but I think there are some legitimate questions about LIV that are worthy of discussion.

1) Sustainability.  Is there a business plan that would make this thing self-funding?  If Saudi Arabia decides they've lost enough money and LIV is not giving them what they want, is there any business plan that would allow LIV to survive?

2) How do they get players?  Right now, they leech them off the PGA and DP tours.  In contrast, the PGA Tour has a feeder league- the Korn Ferry tour.  So the PGA Tour has a flow of new players.  And the PGA Tour has other ways a player can qualify for a tournament.  A player can force his way onto the PGA Tour by being a great player.  He doesn't have to wait for Greg Norman to invite him.  

3) At what point does LIV start cutting players?  What happens when the field is full, and there's another big name that wants to join?  Phil finished 42nd in Portland out of 48 players.  Would they ever cut Phil loose if a better player wanted to join?  The PGA Tour is a meritocracy.  There are rules, and you make it or you don't.  No favoritism.  So, if you look at #2 and #3, you see younger, better players pushing the older players out on the PGA Tour.  Do fans want to see weekly invitational tournaments when every player is guaranteed to earn money? 

4) What happens when all these big name players have fulfilled their 3-year obligations?  Are they going to offer DJ another $100 million to stay?  What do they do if, when his enlistment is up, DJ says, I'd like to go back to the PGA Tour?  Does he take his $150 million and petition for re-admission to the PGA Tour?

5) 3-rounds, with shotgun start.  If an average round in a professional tournament is 5 hours max, that's 15 hours of LIV golf.  And only 8 tournaments.  A PGA tournament is 4 rounds, and the rounds last all day, because there are more players, and they usually all tee off on the first hole.  That's a lot more advertising space than LIV has.  More ads = more money.  This goes directly to the question of sustainability. 

6) The product itself.  "Golf, only louder" is their slogan.  Do we need louder golf?  And with the shotgun starts, do we want to see the winner end his round and win on the 15th hole?  Where are the fans when the winner ends his round?  In a PGA tournament, the fans are gathered up from previous holes and there's a huge crowd on the 18th hole at the end of the tournament.  Look at the Canadian Open this year, when the entire crowd was around the 18th green when Rory McIlroy finished.  That adds to the TV drama.

7) Official World Golf Rankings.  If LIV doesn't get a lot more strong players, then because of the weak fields that play their tournaments, their players will start sinking in the OWGR.  The OWGR is how players qualify for major championships without having to go through qualifying tournaments.  

Right now, LIV is a parasite that feeds off of Saudi Arabia and poaches players from other tours.  Is that really sustainable?  

I know this post is dripping with negativity, but these are legitimate questions.

I haven't watched any LIV golf yet, but that's mostly because of family vacation, other events, etc.  Haven't watched much PGA either during the same timeframe, so........first thoughts.

1)  The Saudi's are floating in money.  The regular business rules of sustainability don't really apply, and the LIV doesn't need to make money.  It could (theoretically) continue indefinitely.

2)  Most of the players are going to follow the money (just like free agents in any other sport).

3)  Good question.  Maybe they already have a plan for an internal rating system, probably based on media draw, rather than scoring/finishes. 

4)   If a guy has already made 100M, he doesn't need to play anywhere, but as mentioned in #1, they can write checks forever if they want to.  Will the PGA be the first to blink?

5)  Same as # 1, they don't have to make money.  Same as #6, a significant portion of PGA airtime is a weak product.

6)  The 15th hole will actually be the 18th in that player's round, so I don't see this as a factor.  Spectators will follow the leader, wherever he is on the course, just like they do now.  The shotgun start formats provides better commercial airtime from the beginning of the round, with players over the entire course.  I can see the possibility for much greater drama at the end, with leaders on different holes, rather than a score in the clubhouse.

7)  Is the OWGR the LIV's problem?  

All good questions.  I'm sure the PGA is more than a little nervous because this is uncharted territory.  It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

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When you get into the endzone, act like you've been there before.

Okay, HB, I promise I won't pound this thing into the ground, but I think there are some legitimate questions about LIV that are worthy of discussion.

1) Sustainability.  Is there a business plan that would make this thing self-funding?  If Saudi Arabia decides they've lost enough money and LIV is not giving them what they want, is there any business plan that would allow LIV to survive?

2) How do they get players?  Right now, they leech them off the PGA and DP tours.  In contrast, the PGA Tour has a feeder league- the Korn Ferry tour.  So the PGA Tour has a flow of new players.  And the PGA Tour has other ways a player can qualify for a tournament.  A player can force his way onto the PGA Tour by being a great player.  He doesn't have to wait for Greg Norman to invite him.  

3) At what point does LIV start cutting players?  What happens when the field is full, and there's another big name that wants to join?  Phil finished 42nd in Portland out of 48 players.  Would they ever cut Phil loose if a better player wanted to join?  The PGA Tour is a meritocracy.  There are rules, and you make it or you don't.  No favoritism.  So, if you look at #2 and #3, you see younger, better players pushing the older players out on the PGA Tour.  Do fans want to see weekly invitational tournaments when every player is guaranteed to earn money? 

4) What happens when all these big name players have fulfilled their 3-year obligations?  Are they going to offer DJ another $100 million to stay?  What do they do if, when his enlistment is up, DJ says, I'd like to go back to the PGA Tour?  Does he take his $150 million and petition for re-admission to the PGA Tour?

5) 3-rounds, with shotgun start.  If an average round in a professional tournament is 5 hours max, that's 15 hours of LIV golf.  And only 8 tournaments.  A PGA tournament is 4 rounds, and the rounds last all day, because there are more players, and they usually all tee off on the first hole.  That's a lot more advertising space than LIV has.  More ads = more money.  This goes directly to the question of sustainability. 

6) The product itself.  "Golf, only louder" is their slogan.  Do we need louder golf?  And with the shotgun starts, do we want to see the winner end his round and win on the 15th hole?  Where are the fans when the winner ends his round?  In a PGA tournament, the fans are gathered up from previous holes and there's a huge crowd on the 18th hole at the end of the tournament.  Look at the Canadian Open this year, when the entire crowd was around the 18th green when Rory McIlroy finished.  That adds to the TV drama.

7) Official World Golf Rankings.  If LIV doesn't get a lot more strong players, then because of the weak fields that play their tournaments, their players will start sinking in the OWGR.  The OWGR is how players qualify for major championships without having to go through qualifying tournaments.  

Right now, LIV is a parasite that feeds off of Saudi Arabia and poaches players from other tours.  Is that really sustainable?  

I know this post is dripping with negativity, but these are legitimate questions.

I haven't watched any LIV golf yet, but that's mostly because of family vacation, other events, etc.  Haven't watched much PGA either during the same timeframe, so........first thoughts.

1)  The Saudi's are floating in money.  The regular business rules of sustainability don't really apply, and the LIV doesn't need to make money.  It could (theoretically) continue indefinitely.

2)  Most of the players are going to follow the money (just like free agents in any other sport).

3)  Good question.  Maybe they already have a plan for an internal rating system, probably based on media draw, rather than scoring/finishes. 

4)   If a guy has already made 100M, he doesn't need to play anywhere, but as mentioned in #1, they can write checks forever if they want to.  Will the PGA be the first to blink?

5)  Same as # 1, they don't have to make money.  Same as #6, a significant portion of PGA airtime is a weak product.

6)  The 15th hole will actually be the 18th in that player's round, so I don't see this as a factor.  Spectators will follow the leader, wherever he is on the course, just like they do now.  The shotgun start formats provides better commercial airtime from the beginning of the round, with players over the entire course.  I can see the possibility for much greater drama at the end, with leaders on different holes, rather than a score in the clubhouse.

7)  Is the OWGR the LIV's problem?  

All good questions.  I'm sure the PGA is more than a little nervous because this is uncharted territory.  It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Thanks for addressing all of these. I just didn't have the time yesterday to sit and write out a lengthy response. 

1) I agree the Saudis have unlimited cash but there is also the real possibility that other sponsors may come on board if they see LIV has a decent chance of becoming successful. From all signs after the first two events, that seems like a real possibility. All tickets for the last event in Miami are already sold out, as were the tickets in Portland. There was a very sizable crowd there. 

2) This last event included the 2nd highest rated amateur, Eugenio Chacarra. That will attract more young players looking for a chance to make money, which is what the PGA is all about. 

3) I don't know the answer to that question. I've read nothing which addresses it but I'm sure plans have been laid out for such an occurrence. 

4) Between the signing bonus and the prize money they earn, they won't need to play golf any longer to live very comfortably. The PGA would be foolish to shut out big names who want to play. This will all play out in the courts. 

5) The Masters says, "advertisers?" I'm being facetious. With only 8 events per year they won't need to make as much advertising dollars as the PGA. Between the Saudis and any other sponsors which come onboard, prize money should be covered. 

6) It's just a slogan. The crowds are no rowdier than they are at PGA events. As Sneakers said, the crowd will follow the leaders and the final hole in Portland had the gallery follow the leaders up the green and surround it for the final putt. 

7) The OWGR and the PGA's stance are something that will be hammered out in the courts in the months to come. This isn't over yet. 
Btw, Greg Norman came up with the idea of a World Golf Tour back in the 90s. Tim Finchem, the PGA commissioner then, copied the idea to keep PGA players from going over. They are now called WGC events. Lo and behold, the PGA has once again copied Norman's idea to keep PGA players from going over by announcing planned year end events with no cuts and larger purses. Why are they doing this? Because they know PGA players want to participate in this format. DP Tour management even went so far as to accelerate their recent agreement with the PGA because DP Tour players were voicing their preference to join up with LIV. 

The PGA purists need to grasp the fact that the LIV doesn't want to replace the PGA. It's only a supplement. Only a fool would actually believe the top players in the PGA right now wouldn't like to play in the LIV. They cite competition and history and blah, blah, blah. The fact of the matter is it ALWAYS about money. The reason you don't see more come over is because of the source of LIV money, even though FedEx has spent hundreds of millions of dollars to upgrade their facilities in Saudi Arabia but you don't hear about that. 

Jay Monahan has played his hand. The lawyers and judges will be deciding things from here on out.

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Competition drives innovation and improvement. Film at 11.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Competition drives innovation and improvement.  Film at 11.

Unfortunately, too many have this purist illusion of the PGA as a sonorous Jim Nantz voice over with soft guitar music playing in the background.

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Myself and most of my friends are avid golf watchers. A bunch of us just went to the travelers championship last weekend. Not one of us have any interest in watching a LIV event. I'd say that's how most people feel and that you are in the minority if you enjoy watching it.

I get what you're saying, but if the LIV attracts the best, then the PGA field will resemble what we saw at the John Deere.  If that's the case, people will turn off and sponsors won't be willing to spend as much.  When that happens, TV networks wont spend as much.

LIV might look flawed, but it's attracting the players we all want to see.  

People like Brandel Chamblee only hurt the PGA cause.  People aren't dumb to not see the hypocrisy of the PGA saying LIV ignores human rights abuse by the Saudis when the PGA is building its brand in China.

I disagree. The players I want to watch are scheffler/morikawa/rory/JT/Willy Z/Hovland. No interest in watching the washed players they've been getting. They're more of a competition for the champions tour IMO.

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I get what you're saying, but if the LIV attracts the best, then the PGA field will resemble what we saw at the John Deere.  If that's the case, people will turn off and sponsors won't be willing to spend as much.  When that happens, TV networks wont spend as much.

LIV might look flawed, but it's attracting the players we all want to see.  

People like Brandel Chamblee only hurt the PGA cause.  People aren't dumb to not see the hypocrisy of the PGA saying LIV ignores human rights abuse by the Saudis when the PGA is building its brand in China.

I disagree. The players I want to watch are scheffler/morikawa/rory/JT/Willy Z/Hovland. No interest in watching the washed players they've been getting. They're more of a competition for the champions tour IMO.

So DJ, Brooks and Bryson are washed up?  Okay.

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R.I.P. Stroudcrowd1

I disagree. The players I want to watch are scheffler/morikawa/rory/JT/Willy Z/Hovland. No interest in watching the washed players they've been getting. They're more of a competition for the champions tour IMO.

So DJ, Brooks and Bryson are washed up?  Okay.

Or Reed.

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The PGA Tour for far too long has relied on the careers of long term journeymen on the Tour. Those times are changing and they're going to have to adapt to it. As it comes to OWGR, the TOUR is nervous with the legal actions because that governing body is subject to a lot of anti-trust review.

I'm a huge golf fan that hasn't watched a ton of LIV, I am struggling a bit to get into it though I think it's intriguing and I think it will continue to evolve. They've only had two events and are currently just flying by the seat of their pants. Give it a few years and we'll see what happens. Let's face it, the John Deere this past week was also a terrible field and a terrible event. The casual golf fan isn't watching that, either.

Lastly, LIV doesn't need to make money. Not only because the Saudis have more than enough to fund it, but because their goal is sports washing. If losing some money funding LIV helps them to continue to legitimize their reputation and allows them to continue to crack into other businesses around the globe where they'll make more money, then it's just a smart investment.

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Regarding sportswashing

https://insidesources.com/the-pga-tours-...-in-china/

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R.I.P. Stroudcrowd1

So DJ, Brooks and Bryson are washed up?  Okay.

Or Reed.

Lol Reed is 100% washed. DJ has been plummeting on OWGR over the last year plus with subpar play.

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Or Reed.

Lol Reed is 100% washed. DJ has been plummeting on OWGR over the last year plus with subpar play.

You really seem invested in this not working. You sound like the 1010XL crew in your disdain.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Obviously - the PGA wants a "you can't have your cake and eat it too" scenario between the tours and many folks are on board with the sentiment.

I'm not really opposed to them working out some way to have LIV players qualify fairly for majors, but I also don't know how best to achieve that.

https://twitter.com/GolfMonthly/status/1...wn5aRS-ivA

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I don't know why the PGA players like Rory are taking such a hard stance like that. It's frankly better for the game and the fans (and therefore the TOUR) if the players who defected can still come back and play in certain events. They should be able to do what they want, and unfortunately a judge is going to be the one to determine that.

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I don't know why the PGA players like Rory are taking such a hard stance like that.  It's frankly better for the game and the fans (and therefore the TOUR) if the players who defected can still come back and play in certain events.  They should be able to do what they want, and unfortunately a judge is going to be the one to determine that.

So is Billy Horschel. I’m with you, I don’t get it either.

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I don't know why the PGA players like Rory are taking such a hard stance like that.  It's frankly better for the game and the fans (and therefore the TOUR) if the players who defected can still come back and play in certain events.  They should be able to do what they want, and unfortunately a judge is going to be the one to determine that.

The bolded opinion is the rub. (nothing wrong with it, it's just one take is all) 

I'm sort of on the fence with it personally, but a professional league is certainly entitled to demand exclusivity in order to compete within their format if they so choose. I'm aware of no reason they can't dictate that.  Don't like it? Don't join and compete. 

That seems to be what the PGA wants, and many players obviously support that. Their opinion on the matter is just as valid as your own.

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I don't know why the PGA players like Rory are taking such a hard stance like that.  It's frankly better for the game and the fans (and therefore the TOUR) if the players who defected can still come back and play in certain events.  They should be able to do what they want, and unfortunately a judge is going to be the one to determine that.

The bolded opinion is the rub. (nothing wrong with it, it's just one take is all) 

I'm sort of on the fence with it personally, but a professional league is certainly entitled to demand exclusivity in order to compete within their format if they so choose. I'm aware of no reason they can't dictate that.  Don't like it? Don't join and compete. 

That seems to be what the PGA wants, and many players obviously support that. Their opinion on the matter is just as valid as your own.

It seems inherently unfair (and maybe against employment laws) to do that to independent contractors.  If they were employees of the TOUR, then I would tend to agree more with you.

Either way, what's best for golf is best for the TOUR, and in my opinion that is allowing the players to float and do as they wish.

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The bolded opinion is the rub. (nothing wrong with it, it's just one take is all) 

I'm sort of on the fence with it personally, but a professional league is certainly entitled to demand exclusivity in order to compete within their format if they so choose. I'm aware of no reason they can't dictate that.  Don't like it? Don't join and compete. 

That seems to be what the PGA wants, and many players obviously support that. Their opinion on the matter is just as valid as your own.

It seems inherently unfair (and maybe against employment laws) to do that to independent contractors.  If they were employees of the TOUR, then I would tend to agree more with you.

Either way, what's best for golf is best for the TOUR, and in my opinion that is allowing the players to float and do as they wish.

... the PGA Tour, like any other employer or organization, has the discretion to enact rules of conduct of its members, employees and independent contractors. One of the provisions in the PGA Tour Player Handbook and Tournament Regulations is that each PGA Tour member acknowledges the commissioner, the tour’s policy board and the appeals committee have the authority to permanently ban a member from playing in a tour co-sponsored, approved or coordinated tournaments if the member violates its regulations. The handbook also provides that a player ceases to be a member of the PGA Tour if, in the judgment of the policy board, the member commits a serious breach of the Tournament Regulations, the PGA Tour’s Code of Ethics, or otherwise conducts himself in a manner unbecoming of a professional golfer.

One such regulation generally prohibits tour players from playing in events when there is a PGA Tour-approved or sponsored event taking place at the same time. Per the handbook, players who reach the 15-event minimum (which a member must meet as a condition of their membership voting rights) are eligible for three conflicting-event releases per season, which is why so many tour players were allowed to play in the Saudi Invitational. However, the regulations also state such requests can be denied. In short, the PGA Tour likely has the discretion to decide that joining a competing tour is a serious breach of its regulations.

It's all in the rules they signed up for when they joined the tour. 

Whether you think it's fair or not - it's right  there in the fine print. 

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Lol Reed is 100% washed. DJ has been plummeting on OWGR over the last year plus with subpar play.

You really seem invested in this not working. You sound like the 1010XL crew in your disdain.

I'm not invested in it not working. I'm just stating my opinion that it's not going to work and that people aren't that interested in it. Just like I couldn't care if the USFL succeeds or not but not many people are watching it. LIV is just an inferior product.

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I don't know why the PGA players like Rory are taking such a hard stance like that. It's frankly better for the game and the fans (and therefore the TOUR) if the players who defected can still come back and play in certain events. They should be able to do what they want, and unfortunately a judge is going to be the one to determine that.

Rory, LOL. If he's so worried about loyalty, then he can stop playing the Euro tour and play the PGA exclusively. They are just mad cause they are being outspent and could legit be in trouble as a business. PGA had better figure some sort of alliance out soon before the young players realize that they can make so much more over a shorter career on the LIV tour then they ever will on the PGA if they jump now. Then they wouldn't need to play a 'retirement' tour like the Champions unless they want to. And i thought the PGA was about growing the game globally. You can bet they are working on player development in China and India. PGA is botching this at pretty much every turn.

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"Remember Red, Hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."  - Andy Dufresne, The Shawshank Redemption

I don't know why the PGA players like Rory are taking such a hard stance like that.  It's frankly better for the game and the fans (and therefore the TOUR) if the players who defected can still come back and play in certain events.  They should be able to do what they want, and unfortunately a judge is going to be the one to determine that.

Rory, LOL. If he's so worried about loyalty, then he can stop playing the Euro tour and play the PGA exclusively. They are just mad cause they are being outspent and could legit be in trouble as a business. PGA had better figure some sort of alliance out soon before the young players realize that they can make so much more over a shorter career on the LIV tour then they ever will on the PGA if they jump now.  Then they wouldn't need to play a 'retirement' tour like the Champions unless they want to.  And i thought the PGA was about growing the game globally. You can bet they are working on player development in China and India. PGA is botching this at pretty much every turn.

The Euro tour has status with the world golf rankings and PGA rules allow players to compete there only within the framework of the PGA rules and guidelines. Rory can't go there and compete more than 3 times per season if the event is scheduled concurrently to a PGA event. Events scheduled when there are no PGA events happening are wide open for him to compete in. 

LIV's schedule will ostensibly have 5 or 6 events that conflict with PGA tournaments. They've already had 3 conflicts and the PGA wraparound schedule should be released soon. I'd expect at least 2 more conflicts. 

As of now, most young players still see any chance top establish a legacy career competing in PGA majors as their top goal. 
That could shift over time, but I don't think it will be a sudden avalanche of players eschewing an opportunity to see what they can do following in the footsteps of Arnold, Nicklaus and Woods. They want that.

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