It'll only make him better.

Famous last words. Hope it doesn't come at the expense of Lawrence's health. Playing with the fire leaving him on an island like that. I am okay with testing him here and there and taking a risk to get the most out of your personnel, but, a full game, or more than 70% of the time?

No thanks.

That’s a valid concern and it’s a tall order, but he’ll improve as the season progresses.

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What edge rusher to Indy have?  Just curious.  They attacked the gap between Fortner and Bartch.  See a pattern?

Buckner is not an easy task to block. That's why I asked who did Harrison predominately have to contest with.

We're bashing Harrison after he got his [BLEEP] handed to him by Jones yesterday. Buckner is a damn good player as well.

We need to start calling into question what this staff is doing and continues to do with drafted players. So far it feels like they struggle in developing them or playing them properly.

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I don’t think that’s entirely true. Defensive players have developed. But Oline development is not their forte. Only Walker has gotten better.


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The issues our right tackle had were rookie brain farts, then he seemed to get into his own head and did silly stuff. They needed to initially give him help but really didn't. When they finally did he set up too far inside where the help was. He would get beat outside. I do hope he learned from this....

We have 2 good blocking TEs. They need to use them.


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Fix the O-Line!

This isn't the 90's Jaguars. That era is over. The league is very mediocre and the preseason is a joke. Teams are fools gold the first quarter of the season.

The times have changed, the rules have changed, and the league is at the highest point of parity I have ever watched. Does anyone believe there is a true dominant team in the league?

The NFL is very average. Good news we are 1-1

Agreed. At some point some of these teams will separate themselves from the pack. We just need to make sure we're one of the AFC's top seven. We should be able to accomplish that I think.

Agreed. But we are still legitimate favorites to win the South. I don’t think our division sends 2 teams to the playoffs. The East and the North say hello.


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Fix the O-Line!

It'll only make him better.

Famous last words. Hope it doesn't come at the expense of Lawrence's health. Playing with the fire leaving him on an island like that. I am okay with testing him here and there and taking a risk to get the most out of your personnel, but, a full game, or more than 70% of the time?

No thanks.

Playing against great players will make a 21 year old rookie better. It just will. 

I'm also not advocating sticking him on an island alone with these guys like they did Chris Jones. The coaches did Anton no favors in that Chiefs game. But playing against the best will help Harrison in the long run. I'm sure he learned some things going up against Jones.

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Prisco makes in interesting point about the pre-season ... Most sports would play blue murder if you took away pre-season time for the coaches ... Especially this side of the atlantic... Even in the more physical games such as rugby...

Nfl seems to be going the other way! Each individual sport is clearly different but whilst there are clear physical, injury based, roster evaluation, age, and probably CTE preventative reasons why this makes sense for the nfl I also fancy a certain percentage of it is also player driven. Specifically ego driven... For varying reasons few players seems to want to take part in preseason, (sometimes understandably) but the attitude amongst some does appear to be that pre-season is beneath them, marks them out as a bubble player or that machismo determines they don't need pre-season. Or even that working out 'in their own camp' is of more benefit ... Certainly to their Instagram followers!! If your name happens to be Tom Brady or Aaron Donald there's probably a very good argument for letting them get on with it... For 95% of the league, probably less so. In a sport which is heavily 'unit' based and in which even the best rely heavily on their teammates and coaches im still surprised one of two more coaches don't use the pre-season slightly more to ingrain some of those working relationships, especially along the o or d lines or on aspects such as special teams. 

Maybe it's just me ... My nfl coaching experience currently stands at 0 snaps    ... But while 180 extra minutes of football may be described as burning the turkey, equally, sending guys out on opening day with what occasionally amounts to a swift three and out has always seemed likely to leave them undercooked!

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Prisco makes in interesting point about the pre-season ... Most sports would play blue murder if you took away pre-season time for the coaches ... Especially this side of the atlantic... Even in the more physical games such as rugby...

Nfl seems to be going the other way! Each individual sport is clearly different but whilst there are clear physical, injury based, roster evaluation, age, and probably CTE preventative reasons why this makes sense for the nfl I also fancy a certain percentage of it is also player driven. Specifically ego driven... For varying reasons few players seems to want to take part in preseason, (sometimes understandably) but the attitude amongst some does appear to be that pre-season is beneath them, marks them out as a bubble player or that machismo determines they don't need pre-season. Or even that working out 'in their own camp' is of more benefit ... Certainly to their Instagram followers!! If your name happens to be Tom Brady or Aaron Donald there's probably a very good argument for letting them get on with it... For 95% of the league, probably less so. In a sport which is heavily 'unit' based and in which even the best rely heavily on their teammates and coaches im still surprised one of two more coaches don't use the pre-season slightly more to ingrain some of those working relationships, especially along the o or d lines or on aspects such as special teams. 

Maybe it's just me ... My nfl coaching experience currently stands at 0 snaps    ... But while 180 extra minutes of football may be described as burning the turkey, equally, sending guys out on opening day with what occasionally amounts to a swift three and out has always seemed likely to leave them undercooked!

Prisco is right that OL play thus far has been sketchy from several teams around the league. 

Does lack of preseason time for these lines to find cohesiveness add to that? 
Probably. 

But many of us have been tracking the type of OL player being sent to the NFL from the college ranks for several years now, and the general preparedness has nosedived.
 Not that many guys coming to the league well versed in pro style offenses, and lots of picks taken too early who haven't seen quality competition  at the college level. 

Teams starting rookies and 2nd year guys have a much more hit and miss success rate than in years past.
There was a good article on this a couple of years ago. I'll try to find it later.

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Lageman was saying the entire line has been bad two weeks in a row. He said he didn't agree with Walker Little being all that great back in week one, despite what Boselli said. Which is interesting. He mentioned Fortner getting completely lost when Karlaftis got by him on a particular play but he didn't mince his words when he said the coaching staff should have done more to help out with keeping Chris Jones off of Trevor Lawrence.

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"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."

Wow.

You still don't get it.  (the pressures I reported were also from PFF!!)

OK 


The ESPN win rates I quoted last year repeatedly have turned out to be quite accurate when looking at our OL performance currently - and they are quite a bit simpler. During a longer window of time than PFF allows - does your guy win or lose his blocking assignment? 

Simple. It's not a grade or a rating. It's a win or a loss. Much less room for nerdy humans to color the outcome with their opinions. 

Neither are a definitive authority, however. And I absolutely never said that they were. That's just some horse [BLEEP] you keep floating repeatedly.

One is a grading system.
One is an accumulated tally of passes and fails. 

Where are you finding the win rate on ESPN? I haven’t yet found it.


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Fix the O-Line!

Prisco makes in interesting point about the pre-season ... Most sports would play blue murder if you took away pre-season time for the coaches ... Especially this side of the atlantic... Even in the more physical games such as rugby...

Nfl seems to be going the other way! Each individual sport is clearly different but whilst there are clear physical, injury based, roster evaluation, age, and probably CTE preventative reasons why this makes sense for the nfl I also fancy a certain percentage of it is also player driven. Specifically ego driven... For varying reasons few players seems to want to take part in preseason, (sometimes understandably) but the attitude amongst some does appear to be that pre-season is beneath them, marks them out as a bubble player or that machismo determines they don't need pre-season. Or even that working out 'in their own camp' is of more benefit ... Certainly to their Instagram followers!! If your name happens to be Tom Brady or Aaron Donald there's probably a very good argument for letting them get on with it... For 95% of the league, probably less so. In a sport which is heavily 'unit' based and in which even the best rely heavily on their teammates and coaches im still surprised one of two more coaches don't use the pre-season slightly more to ingrain some of those working relationships, especially along the o or d lines or on aspects such as special teams. 

Maybe it's just me ... My nfl coaching experience currently stands at 0 snaps    ... But while 180 extra minutes of football may be described as burning the turkey, equally, sending guys out on opening day with what occasionally amounts to a swift three and out has always seemed likely to leave them undercooked!

Prisco is right that OL play thus far has been sketchy from several teams around the league. 

Does lack of preseason time for these lines to find cohesiveness add to that? 
Probably. 

But many of us have been tracking the type of OL player being sent to the NFL from the college ranks for several years now, and the general preparedness has nosedived.
 Not that many guys coming to the league well versed in pro style offenses, and lots of picks taken too early who haven't seen quality competition  at the college level. 

Teams starting rookies and 2nd year guys have a much more hit and miss success rate than in years past.
There was a good article on this a couple of years ago. I'll try to find it later.

I acknowledge your point on the standard of rookie O-line play. I'm not an in depth follower of college football but enough people who clearly know their subject suggesting the same points to a general truth ...

Circling back round then the ability to work these kids and get plenty of reps first of all in practice but then getting them into a flow with their teammates (albeit at a more vanilla pace) ... would seem a logical step...  I admit the rookies do usually get a series or so more than the vets but if you're ready you're ready and if you're not ... Well a bit more work never hurts!

My point on more senior players i would stand by, there's a lot of players and a lot of reasons why it doesn't happen ... Not all of them are always credible in my view!

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Wow.

You still don't get it.  (the pressures I reported were also from PFF!!)

OK 


The ESPN win rates I quoted last year repeatedly have turned out to be quite accurate when looking at our OL performance currently - and they are quite a bit simpler. During a longer window of time than PFF allows - does your guy win or lose his blocking assignment? 

Simple. It's not a grade or a rating. It's a win or a loss. Much less room for nerdy humans to color the outcome with their opinions. 

Neither are a definitive authority, however. And I absolutely never said that they were. That's just some horse [BLEEP] you keep floating repeatedly.

One is a grading system.
One is an accumulated tally of passes and fails. 

Where are you finding the win rate on ESPN?  I haven’t yet found it.


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I don't know if they've started running the rates form 2023 yet

Here's the link to last year:
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/3453...s#pbwrteam

Jags finished 31st in pass block win rate and 29th in run block win rate.

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Where are you finding the win rate on ESPN?  I haven’t yet found it.


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I don't know if they've started running the rates form 2023 yet

Here's the link to last year:
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/3453...s#pbwrteam

Jags finished 31st in pass block win rate and 29th in run block win rate.

Thanks!


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Fix the O-Line!

https://x.com/_John_Shipley/status/17042...17535?s=20

John Shipley

@_John_Shipley
·
1m
There have been 5 games in Trevor Lawrence's 38 career starts where he was sacked 4 times or more.

2 of those games have come against the Kansas City Chiefs, including a career-high five sacks in Week 2

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https://x.com/_John_Shipley/status/17042...17535?s=20

John Shipley

@_John_Shipley
·
1m
There have been 5 games in Trevor Lawrence's 38 career starts where he was sacked 4 times or more.

2 of those games have come against the Kansas City Chiefs, including a career-high five sacks in Week 2

Frustrating. This issue won't be going away anytime soon. Unless four of the five starters magically get better. Really concerned with Lawrence now this season. Jones is not even the toughest defender they'll face this year. That's just an appetizer that leads up to some heftier main courses. Bosa, Garrett and Watt are all better and consistently more involved in the backfield. 

Then there's other teams to account for like the Saints with Jordan. We get another game against Buckner as well. I hope they come up with a damn good scheme because there's no way in hell he's getting out of those games completely clean.

---

"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."

https://x.com/_John_Shipley/status/17042...17535?s=20

John Shipley

@_John_Shipley
·
1m
There have been 5 games in Trevor Lawrence's 38 career starts where he was sacked 4 times or more.

2 of those games have come against the Kansas City Chiefs, including a career-high five sacks in Week 2

Frustrating. This issue won't be going away anytime soon. Unless four of the five starters magically get better. Really concerned with Lawrence now this season. Jones is not even the toughest defender they'll face this year. That's just an appetizer that leads up to some heftier main courses. Bosa, Garrett and Watt are all better and consistently more involved in the backfield. 

Then there's other teams to account for like the Saints with Jordan. We get another game against Buckner as well. I hope they come up with a damn good scheme because there's no way in hell he's getting out of those games completely clean.

The thing that should really concern us is that there is no concept during a play call that chips or pushes out defensive pass rushers.

The scheme for most of our pass plays were that players that were not in pass protection were to slip out and try to get to a spot.  Of course this is going to be a problem if your Linemen are having a hard time holding their own. 

Bros, remember MJD?  Dude would chip rushers straight on their backside!!!  I even remember a young Yeldon doing the same thing!  That's coaching.  That's offensive philosophy.  Our RBs don't chip rushers before they go out on their routes.  Same with our TEs.  This is a problem

It's just not good enough.  We have so much talent, but if we aren't focusing on the little things, then what the heck do we think is going to happen against the elite teams?

Not chipping, not pushing out, not being physical at the Line of Scrimmage won't matter this Sunday.  We're so good that it won't matter.  But when your O-Line is kinda soft, you gotta have your RBs and TEs understand that chips, rubs, or push backs can make the difference between a 30 yard screen or a backward lateral that results in a turn over.

---

Frustrating. This issue won't be going away anytime soon. Unless four of the five starters magically get better. Really concerned with Lawrence now this season. Jones is not even the toughest defender they'll face this year. That's just an appetizer that leads up to some heftier main courses. Bosa, Garrett and Watt are all better and consistently more involved in the backfield. 

Then there's other teams to account for like the Saints with Jordan. We get another game against Buckner as well. I hope they come up with a damn good scheme because there's no way in hell he's getting out of those games completely clean.

The thing that should really concern us is that there is no concept during a play call that chips or pushes out defensive pass rushers.

The scheme for most of our pass plays were that players that were not in pass protection were to slip out and try to get to a spot.  Of course this is going to be a problem if your Linemen are having a hard time holding their own. 

Bros, remember MJD?  Dude would chip rushers straight on their backside!!!  I even remember a young Yeldon doing the same thing!  That's coaching.  That's offensive philosophy.  Our RBs don't chip rushers before they go out on their routes.  Same with our TEs.  This is a problem

It's just not good enough.  We have so much talent, but if we aren't focusing on the little things, then what the heck do we think is going to happen against the elite teams?

Not chipping, not pushing out, not being physical at the Line of Scrimmage won't matter this Sunday.  We're so good that it won't matter.  But when your O-Line is kinda soft, you gotta have your RBs and TEs understand that chips, rubs, or push backs can make the difference between a 30 yard screen or a backward lateral that results in a turn over.

I 100% agree that our staff need to do some soul searching as to why they didn't involve the TEs and RBs more in protective roles in that game. 

They did use them a bit that way, but nowhere near enough IMO and I think that will be needed moving forward.

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Trevor Lawrence (according to multiple fantasy analytics sites) has the lowest pocket time of any starting quarterback in the NFL.

2.0 seconds of time before pressure arrives or he releases a pass when all snaps are timed, totaled and averaged.

The only QBs on the list thriving with a time under the benchmark 2.5 seconds are Tua and Brock Purdy at 2.2 seconds.
Other productive backs are at 2.5-2.7 seconds to release a pass.

(1.8 - 2.8 seconds is the entire range and we are clearly at the bottom)

Half a second is a very long time when you are processing two or three reads and throwing a football.
Our line is not giving him time.
Our line is not giving him a pocket to work from.

Last year - Trevor finished the year with a pocket time of 2.2 seconds (tied for about 28th in the league at the time amongst those with 8 or more starts)

He's now at 2.0.

It has gotten worse instead of better.

Here's the thread from last year where I tried to outline these issues and most folks waived it off as nothing to be concerned about:

https://www.duvalpride.com/showthread.php?tid=38118

---

Trevor Lawrence (according to multiple fantasy analytics sites) has the lowest pocket time of any starting quarterback in the NFL.

2.0 seconds of time before pressure arrives or he releases a pass when all snaps are timed, totaled and averaged.

The only QBs on the list thriving with a time under the benchmark 2.5 seconds are Tua and Brock Purdy at 2.2 seconds.
Other productive backs are at 2.5-2.7 seconds to release a pass.

(1.8 - 2.8 seconds is the entire range and we are clearly at the bottom)

Half a second is a very long time when you are processing two or three reads and throwing a football.
Our line is not giving him time.
Our line is not giving him a pocket to work from.

Last year - Trevor finished the year with a pocket time of 2.2 seconds (tied for about 28th in the league at the time amongst those with 8 or more starts)

He's now at 2.0.

It has gotten worse instead of better.

Here's the thread from last year where I tried to outline these issues and most folks waived it off as nothing to be concerned about:

https://www.duvalpride.com/showthread.php?tid=38118

Like we mentioned last year, Trevor is so good at processing and maneuvering in the pocket that he masks just how terrible the line has been.

---

https://x.com/_John_Shipley/status/17042...17535?s=20

John Shipley

@_John_Shipley
·
1m
There have been 5 games in Trevor Lawrence's 38 career starts where he was sacked 4 times or more.

2 of those games have come against the Kansas City Chiefs, including a career-high five sacks in Week 2

Frustrating. This issue won't be going away anytime soon. Unless four of the five starters magically get better. Really concerned with Lawrence now this season. Jones is not even the toughest defender they'll face this year. That's just an appetizer that leads up to some heftier main courses. Bosa, Garrett and Watt are all better and consistently more involved in the backfield. 

Then there's other teams to account for like the Saints with Jordan. We get another game against Buckner as well. I hope they come up with a damn good scheme because there's no way in hell he's getting out of those games completely clean.

The only way things will get better is if Pederson puts the training wheels back on Taylor. This guy is obviously green and shouldn't be calling plays for a playoff-caliber team. He doesn't understand or know how to setup protections on the fly. Ship him to Arizona for on-the-job training.

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"I am only an average man, but by George, I work harder at it than the average man." - Teddy Roosevelt

Trevor Lawrence (according to multiple fantasy analytics sites) has the lowest pocket time of any starting quarterback in the NFL.

2.0 seconds of time before pressure arrives or he releases a pass when all snaps are timed, totaled and averaged.

The only QBs on the list thriving with a time under the benchmark 2.5 seconds are Tua and Brock Purdy at 2.2 seconds.
Other productive backs are at 2.5-2.7 seconds to release a pass.

(1.8 - 2.8 seconds is the entire range and we are clearly at the bottom)

Half a second is a very long time when you are processing two or three reads and throwing a football.
Our line is not giving him time.
Our line is not giving him a pocket to work from.

Last year - Trevor finished the year with a pocket time of 2.2 seconds (tied for about 28th in the league at the time amongst those with 8 or more starts)

He's now at 2.0.

It has gotten worse instead of better.

Here's the thread from last year where I tried to outline these issues and most folks waived it off as nothing to be concerned about:

https://www.duvalpride.com/showthread.php?tid=38118

Like we mentioned last year, Trevor is so good at processing and maneuvering in the pocket that he masks just how terrible the line has been.

The more he has to use this skill the less he can survey the field.

---

A new broom always sweeps clean.

Trevor Lawrence (according to multiple fantasy analytics sites) has the lowest pocket time of any starting quarterback in the NFL.

2.0 seconds of time before pressure arrives or he releases a pass when all snaps are timed, totaled and averaged.

The only QBs on the list thriving with a time under the benchmark 2.5 seconds are Tua and Brock Purdy at 2.2 seconds.
Other productive backs are at 2.5-2.7 seconds to release a pass.

(1.8 - 2.8 seconds is the entire range and we are clearly at the bottom)

Half a second is a very long time when you are processing two or three reads and throwing a football.
Our line is not giving him time.
Our line is not giving him a pocket to work from.

Last year - Trevor finished the year with a pocket time of 2.2 seconds (tied for about 28th in the league at the time amongst those with 8 or more starts)

He's now at 2.0.

It has gotten worse instead of better.

Here's the thread from last year where I tried to outline these issues and most folks waived it off as nothing to be concerned about:

https://www.duvalpride.com/showthread.php?tid=38118

Your analysis last year on the offensive line was "spot on." Baalke clearly did not do enough in the off-season to address the weaknesses on the interior offensive line. He could have signed Risner who just got $4 million from the Vikings for the rest of this season. Based on his history, he'd have been a huge upgrade from Bartch. Unless the current starters get much better, the only hope is that Shatley or Darryl Williams from the practice squad replace Fortner and Cooper Hodges returns after week 4 to replace Bartch. Can't say that any of these options would fix the problem, but the choices are obvously very limited. 

I'm also in agreement with you regarding Herndon. His lack of speed greatly compromises his coverage when going against slot receivers. Maybe Greg Junior will beat him out once he gets healthy, but for some reason the coaches seem to love Herndon. 

The stubbornness of our G.M. and coaching staff sticking with poor players at critical positions drives me crazy. Unless we are incorrect in our assessment of these "weak links", I'm afraid the 2023 Jaguars will go no further than last season despite the addition of Ridley.

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