Fair enough.  You can see things different than me.  That's fine.

But you can't insult my intelligence the way you are doing.  I will not allow it.  I have provided data points all over this forum why my opinion is valid.  And you have not been able to address my points in any thread that I have tried to engage you within.

If you want to no longer discuss things with me, so be it.  You can say you disagree with me.  But stop insulting my intelligence.  I know just as much as you.  You are not more intelligent in terms of football, or really anything, than I am.

So if you continue to insult me, you may as well assume I will insult you back.  You are not better than me.  You are not better than anyone on this forum.  Just because you are a MOD doesn't make you better than any other person here.  Stop behaving that way.

Pointing out to me that the line was bad last year doesn't do anything here
I was the resident offensive-line-complainer-abouter here all season last year.
Comparing some overall ranking of grades or random game grades doesn't do anything for the argument either.
My stance this whole time has been that the bad line play (and other player performance matters) are affecting the offense's production negatively more so than Press Taylor's calls are. You think it's more about Press Taylor, but you haven't done anything to prove that, my man. You've cited some stuff - but none of it serves to break down what really happened in the first 4 weeks of this season and assign it to Press Taylor. In a lot of ways it's kind of impossible to prove. 

If you think the past four weeks have shown a line playing just like last year, great. Believe that. I disagree. I think pressure has affected Trevor more in critical situations to end or stall drives over these first few weeks than it typically did last season. No big deal. 

Just let it play out. 

We all want the line to be better. We all want fewer mistakes. We all wish Press would do at least a few things differently - and you want him drawn and quartered apparently. 

Just let it play out. 
We'll have better analysis after more games. I don't give a damn about being right about it - just wanna see it get better. 

If Press Taylor gets his duties taken away and our line still sucks - but the offense takes off - I'll buy you a Tre Herndon jersey. OK? LOL

NYC4Jags:  the bad line play (and other player performance matters) are affecting the offense's production negatively more so than Press Taylor's calls are.

Carp:  The OC's play calling  (and bad execution as described by Pederson) are affecting the offense's production more so than than the O-Line's inefficiency.

I don't want Taylor to lose his job.  I just want them to go back to last year's game plan. With that said, I will absolutely sent you an invoice for a Jersey if/when we actually start running the offense like last year.  I mean, whether or not you agree, you realize this isn't the same offense as last year.  You think it's the O-Line.  I think it's the game planning/coaching.  

But you do recognize this isn't the same as what we saw last year, right?

By the way,  I'd be proud to rock a Herndon #37.  The guy isn't the most gifted.  He was an undrafted rookie in 2018.  He goes all out, and has been in the NFL for 6 years because of his dedication.   A lesson I try to teach my son.  People hate on him, but he's actually an inspiration.

---

Pointing out to me that the line was bad last year doesn't do anything here
I was the resident offensive-line-complainer-abouter here all season last year.
Comparing some overall ranking of grades or random game grades doesn't do anything for the argument either.
My stance this whole time has been that the bad line play (and other player performance matters) are affecting the offense's production negatively more so than Press Taylor's calls are. You think it's more about Press Taylor, but you haven't done anything to prove that, my man. You've cited some stuff - but none of it serves to break down what really happened in the first 4 weeks of this season and assign it to Press Taylor. In a lot of ways it's kind of impossible to prove. 

If you think the past four weeks have shown a line playing just like last year, great. Believe that. I disagree. I think pressure has affected Trevor more in critical situations to end or stall drives over these first few weeks than it typically did last season. No big deal. 

Just let it play out. 

We all want the line to be better. We all want fewer mistakes. We all wish Press would do at least a few things differently - and you want him drawn and quartered apparently. 

Just let it play out. 
We'll have better analysis after more games. I don't give a damn about being right about it - just wanna see it get better. 

If Press Taylor gets his duties taken away and our line still sucks - but the offense takes off - I'll buy you a Tre Herndon jersey. OK? LOL

NYC4Jags:  the bad line play (and other player performance matters) are affecting the offense's production negatively more so than Press Taylor's calls are.

Carp:  The OC's play calling  (and bad execution as described by Pederson) are affecting the offense's production more so than than the O-Line's inefficiency.

I don't want Taylor to lose his job.  I just want them to go back to last year's game plan. With that said, I will absolutely sent you an invoice for a Jersey if/when we actually start running the offense like last year.  I mean, whether or not you agree, you realize this isn't the same offense as last year.  You think it's the O-Line.  I think it's the game planning/coaching.  

But you do recognize this isn't the same as what we saw last year, right?

By the way,  I'd be proud to rock a Herndon #37.  The guy isn't the most gifted.  He was an undrafted rookie in 2018.  He goes all out, and has been in the NFL for 6 years because of his dedication.   A lesson I try to teach my son.  People hate on him, but he's actually an inspiration.

To the green

Why do you make me repeat this? 

• It is the same playbook
  
• Game plans are still being made by Pederson + the same braintrust as '22 minus JB Cooter. 
  
• Only differences are who calls the plays on gameday and an added receiver
  
• Taylor calls more runs up the middle than Pederson did
  
• Taylor does a few things situationally differently than Pederson - not much - but a few tendencies it would appear
  
• They just aren't hitting on vert pass stuff much so far and it has you very confused - so you decided "it's a different offense" -- It is not
  

Dude, every single play being called in goes through Pederson's headset. He can change ANYTHING he wants to if he doesn't like what Press calls. That 3rd and short in the first Q on Sunday when we called a timeout before the snap was probably Pederson doing exactly that. 

Every single one of these players and coaches talked all offseason about "year two in the system" ad nauseam and you think they just up and started using a new playbook????? Are you serious???

They WANT continuity and we are seeing it with plays and game plans. (just not with execution)  I've posted pictures with bright shiny arrows and simple words for you illustrating how it is the same and why it isn't working and you keep falling back on this insanity. 

I'm done. 

You can't see it. Not my problem.

https://x.com/HashTaguars/status/1709306...57713?s=20

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They sucked last year and they suck more now.
 

So I had some time to go back to last year...

Guess what? Our O-Line was graded almost exactly as this current O-Line...

Preseason 2022, PFF graded us as the 26th best O-Line ?https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-l...tiers-2022
Preseason 2023, PFF graded us as the 26th best O-Line ?https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-l...-offseason

But Carp, Press Taylor apologists say that this O-Line is so bad that we can't run the same offense we did last year. So obviously, PFF is wrong and Press Taylor's biggest fan is right.

OK... Totally understand. PFF makes you pay for getting a deep dive into their metrics. So why don't we go to an objective source and see how they grade O-Lines. ESPN. ESPN provides analysis for O-Lines. The study of Pass Blocking and Run Blocking. Of course, this is a discussion of Pass Blocking (PB), so we'll ignore any Run Blocking (RB) metrics. ESPN did a study in 2022 regarding the PB win rate of O-Lines for the entire season. PB Win Rate is discussed here: ?https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2489...q-how-work

And here's the 2023 current analysis of PB win rate: ?https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/3835...eams#teams

The assertion of ESPN's analysis is that "...we (ESPN) finally have objective individual stats for linemen for their most critical tasks -- defending and attacking the passer. We can also know who is blocking whom on every snap, who was double-teamed, who got pressure from the edges and who got pressure by collapsing the pocket. The end result is that we can assess individual performance and team-level performance in the trenches separate and apart from the performance of the quarterback, receivers and secondary."

On January 10, 2023 ESPN posted their analysis for O-Line individual and team metrics. Just to remind those that may not be aware. In 2022, the Jacksonville Jaguars made it the AFC Divisional Round, and only barely lost to the eventual SB champs.

So, back to the ESPN analysis. From their analysis, the Jaguar PB success rate was 31st best in the NFL. And to be honest, if anyone wanted to objectively consider last year, Trevor was getting harrased constantly last year. Similar to this year.

You know why? Because we basically have the same O-Line.

The metrics don't lie, my friends. The O-Line was bad last year. The O-Line is bad this year...


Just to make it easy to understand, and then you can go study my references:

2022: Jaguars O-Line was trash.
2023: Jaguars O-Line is pretty much the same as 2022.

I've provided the objective analysis from PFF and ESPN. Not some fan boy lover of Press Taylor, or some angsty blowhard hater of Press Taylor. This is middle of the road analysis, with no horse in the game. The O-Line last year was just as bad as the O-Line this year. Everyone outside of the fanbase agrees.

Yet last year we were much more explosive than we are so far this year. Something has changed. And it wasn't the performance of the perennially bad O-Line.

TL; don't care

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Dude.
The offense had some pretty bad games last year.  Did you forget?

No, I remember...  But that isn't really my point.  The offense was bad at times last year.  Sure.  No doubt.  The offense was still dynamic last year and more explosive than they have been so far this year.  That's my point. 

Ya'll realize that in 2022, Lawrence had 8 TDs after 4 games.

You know how many TDs Lawrence has now, after 4 games?

4

4 TDs.  

The O-Line is just as bad.  But Lawrence has 50% less TDs...   So what has changed????

the schedule.
the expectations.
the scouting.
the linemen.

---

No, I remember...  But that isn't really my point.  The offense was bad at times last year.  Sure.  No doubt.  The offense was still dynamic last year and more explosive than they have been so far this year.  That's my point. 

Ya'll realize that in 2022, Lawrence had 8 TDs after 4 games.

You know how many TDs Lawrence has now, after 4 games?

4

4 TDs.  

The O-Line is just as bad.  But Lawrence has 50% less TDs...   So what has changed????

the schedule.
the expectations.
the scouting.
the linemen.

It's the caffeine.

The nictoine.

The miligrams of tar.

It's my habitat.

It needs to be cleaned.

It's my car.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

---

No, I remember...  But that isn't really my point.  The offense was bad at times last year.  Sure.  No doubt.  The offense was still dynamic last year and more explosive than they have been so far this year.  That's my point. 

Ya'll realize that in 2022, Lawrence had 8 TDs after 4 games.

You know how many TDs Lawrence has now, after 4 games?

4

4 TDs.  

The O-Line is just as bad.  But Lawrence has 50% less TDs...   So what has changed????

the schedule.
the expectations.
the scouting.
the linemen.

It's the caffeine.

The nictoine.

The miligrams of tar.

It's my habitat.

It needs to be cleaned.

It's my car.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

---

"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."

No, I remember...  But that isn't really my point.  The offense was bad at times last year.  Sure.  No doubt.  The offense was still dynamic last year and more explosive than they have been so far this year.  That's my point. 

Ya'll realize that in 2022, Lawrence had 8 TDs after 4 games.

You know how many TDs Lawrence has now, after 4 games?

4

4 TDs.  

The O-Line is just as bad.  But Lawrence has 50% less TDs...   So what has changed????

the schedule.
the expectations.
the scouting.
the linemen.

That stat he's [BLEEP] about comes down to 2 WRs not catching TD passes that hit them in the hands. Stupid Press Taylor not making them catch the ball, maybe he thinks Urban needs to come kick them a few times to really show them how bad it is.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

the schedule.
the expectations.
the scouting.
the linemen.

That stat he's [BLEEP] about comes down to 2 WRs not catching TD passes that hit them in the hands. Stupid Press Taylor not making them catch the ball, maybe he thinks Urban needs to come kick them a few times to really show them how bad it is.

It really has been crazy bad luck to start the season.

2 dropped TDs by Ridley. 1 pass interference call that Ridley drew but he also should have caught the TD. 2 toes not down for Zay. 1 or 2 misses from Trevor because pressure came from a side where he should have thrown the ball. Even last week against the Falcons, ETN has a lot of green grass after a screen but the corner gets a finger on his shoe to trip him up.

---

It's the same damn players from last year to this year.  We only lost Taylor...  Jesus, man.  This is the same O-Line!!!

Fourtner, Barch, and Scherff were graded in the mid 40s or low 50s in 2022 in several games!!!  A few weeks ago, I posted links about it.  You ignored it, but it's still there.  This is the same O-Line.  Nothing has really changed.

For crying out loud, why are you trying to ignore the fact that our O-Line last year sucked too???  Oh...  That's right, it's because you refuse to just admit reality if it doesn't fit into your pre-conception.  I mean, it's fine if you want to ignore reality.  Is Cam Robinson that important?  Well, I guess we'll see... 

But don't act as though this current O-Line is so much worse than last years.  I'm sick of listening to it.  Every analysis shows we're the same.  I even posted sources on the OLine 2023 thread.

---

LOL

OK

The line is letting pressure thru more frequently and faster than last year.
They sucked last year and they suck more now.
 ...

...
...

https://twitter.com/LaurieFitzptrck/stat...13811?s=20

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https://twitter.com/LaurieFitzptrck/stat...13811?s=20

I've been saying that TL is under pressure on the downfield passing attempts too much and that's affecting the success rate as well as the reduced frequency with which longer passes are called 

"4th most pressured QB on downfield passes" quoted here supports that

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LOL

OK

The line is letting pressure thru more frequently and faster than last year.
They sucked last year and they suck more now.
 ...

...
...

https://twitter.com/LaurieFitzptrck/stat...13811?s=20

---

https://twitter.com/LaurieFitzptrck/stat...13811?s=20

I've been saying that TL is under pressure on the downfield passing attempts too much and that's affecting the success rate as well as the reduced frequency with which longer passes are called 

"4th most pressured QB on downfield passes" quoted here supports that

The issue is he holds the ball too long as he waits for them to get open. If it isn't there, come off the route. He is locked on to it and missing the open WRs.

I'll take the open 15 yard passes vs holding the ball for a 40 yard pass.

He has issues identifying if a WR will be open deep right now and waits until they are open or forces it.

Sent from my SM-T970 using Tapatalk

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https://twitter.com/LaurieFitzptrck/stat...13811?s=20

---

https://twitter.com/LaurieFitzptrck/stat...13811?s=20

I've been saying that TL is under pressure on the downfield passing attempts too much and that's affecting the success rate as well as the reduced frequency with which longer passes are called 

"4th most pressured QB on downfield passes" quoted here supports that

The issue is he holds the ball too long as he waits for them to get open. If it isn't there, come off the route. He is locked on to it and missing the open WRs.

I'll take the open 15 yard passes vs holding the ball for a 40 yard pass.

He has issues identifying if a WR will be open deep right now and waits until they are open or forces it.

Sent from my SM-T970 using Tapatalk

That ain't it at all.

His pocket time is 2.0 seconds. After the first 4 weeks he has the shortest pocket time of ALL starting quarterbacks. 
(in case you misunderstand - this is the amount of time on average over the last four games that he has before throwing the ball, being sacked, being pressured, or forced to relocate to evade pressure/lack of pocket) 
He was pressured 111 times last year. (not a low number)
Right now he's on pace to be pressured 163 times this season. A VERY high number. 


I think there have been 3 or 4 plays this year where he locked onto Ridley or someone else and didn't look to an open guy and that has you confused about what is actually happening. 

On the downfield (longer) pass attempts - he's not holding the ball too long. It's a normal amount of time, he's just being pressured quickly on 46% of those attempts and taking a shot on many of them too. 

The IOL protection is affecting Lawrence's ability to do what he does well this season more than it did last year. And it was definitely a problem last year too.

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The pocket time isn't a stat you can use to say see the OL sucks. The OL can be the best in the league and still be the lowest in pocket time. It is meaningless or just another piece of data to support something.

Watch the times he starts to throw but pulls it, comes off the route because of pressure instead of moving in the pocket and throwing it. He is entirely locking on to WRs and if he does look elsewhere it is to fast.

The 2 biggest issues are the coaches trying to force Trevor into a pocket passer statue and Trevor not playing well with whatever the priority is on offense. The OL isn't great but that was a known issue and similar to last year. Deep routes take time but you should be able to read the coverage and determine if it will be open or not. Right now that isn't happening and most of the time the deep routes is covered and the WRs underneath are open.

Sent from my SM-T970 using Tapatalk

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The pocket time isn't a stat you can use to say see the OL sucks. The OL can be the best in the league and still be the lowest in pocket time. It is meaningless or just another piece of data to support something.

Watch the times he starts to throw but pulls it, comes off the route because of pressure instead of moving in the pocket and throwing it. He is entirely locking on to WRs and if he does look elsewhere it is to fast.

The 2 biggest issues are the coaches trying to force Trevor into a pocket passer statue and Trevor not playing well with whatever the priority is on offense. The OL isn't great but that was a known issue and similar to last year. Deep routes take time but you should be able to read the coverage and determine if it will be open or not. Right now that isn't happening and most of the time the deep routes is covered and the WRs underneath are open.

Sent from my SM-T970 using Tapatalk

nope

Pocket time is directly affected by pressure given up by the OL
Just because it is also affected by the called quick plays and QB release - you can't just dismiss the ways it is affected by the OL performance.

OL is def worse than last year - it's easily demonstrable and I've pointed it out here and in other threads with multiple stats 

Guys are also definitely getting open deep - not on every single rep, but on most of them 

Trevor has locked onto a target a few times this year when he should have been making more reads quickly 
 that's the only part of your analysis that isn't wrong - and it has been a very low percentage compared too the plays affected by pressure

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Trevor hasn't been lightning up either. Too much starring down the recievers and not hitting the intermediate throws, he's trying to make the big throw all the time.

Both coaches & players are at fault here, so this back and forth between NYCJag and carp is getting tiring. Since this is a QB driven league - I'll say it falls on Lawrence the most. If he wants to get paid like a top franchise QB he better have this team firing on offense sort of what Zach Wilson did last week for the Jets (minus that late TO)..

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The pocket time isn't a stat you can use to say see the OL sucks. The OL can be the best in the league and still be the lowest in pocket time. It is meaningless or just another piece of data to support something.

Watch the times he starts to throw but pulls it, comes off the route because of pressure instead of moving in the pocket and throwing it. He is entirely locking on to WRs and if he does look elsewhere it is to fast.

The 2 biggest issues are the coaches trying to force Trevor into a pocket passer statue and Trevor not playing well with whatever the priority is on offense. The OL isn't great but that was a known issue and similar to last year. Deep routes take time but you should be able to read the coverage and determine if it will be open or not. Right now that isn't happening and most of the time the deep routes is covered and the WRs underneath are open.

Sent from my SM-T970 using Tapatalk

nope

Pocket time is directly affected by pressure given up by the OL
Just because it is also affected by the called quick plays and QB release - you can't just dismiss the ways it is affected by the OL performance.

OL is def worse than last year - it's easily demonstrable and I've pointed it out here and in other threads with multiple stats 

Guys are also definitely getting open deep - not on every single rep, but on most of them 

Trevor has locked onto a target a few times this year when he should have been making more reads quickly 
 that's the only part of your analysis that isn't wrong - and it has been a very low percentage compared too the plays affected by pressure

It's hard to evaulate OL play, sure on tape it looks obvious but its also the duty of QB to help his OL. I mean if we were to go down the list of greats QBs do you think all of them had good lines? Nope. They all made their Olines better by their play.

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nope

Pocket time is directly affected by pressure given up by the OL
Just because it is also affected by the called quick plays and QB release - you can't just dismiss the ways it is affected by the OL performance.

OL is def worse than last year - it's easily demonstrable and I've pointed it out here and in other threads with multiple stats 

Guys are also definitely getting open deep - not on every single rep, but on most of them 

Trevor has locked onto a target a few times this year when he should have been making more reads quickly 
 that's the only part of your analysis that isn't wrong - and it has been a very low percentage compared too the plays affected by pressure

It's hard to evaulate OL play, sure on tape it looks obvious but its also the duty of QB to help his OL. I mean if we were to go down the list of greats QBs do you think all of them had good lines? Nope. They all made their Olines better by their play.

LOL

No it isn't hard to evaluate

Trevor makes this horrible line look passable more often than not. He did it in every win last year too. 

People putting our offense's struggles on Lawrence have zero clue what they are watching.
It's actually comical.

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It's hard to evaulate OL play, sure on tape it looks obvious but its also the duty of QB to help his OL. I mean if we were to go down the list of greats QBs do you think all of them had good lines? Nope. They all made their Olines better by their play.

LOL

No it isn't hard to evaluate

Trevor makes this horrible line look passable more often than not. He did it in every win last year too. 

People putting our offense's struggles on Lawrence have zero clue what they are watching.
It's actually comical.

Trevor was the best player on the field (etn made it close)

How many times did he have the ball right there and a receiver drop it, holding, illegal man downfield etc.  There was a play early where he ripped one to Ridley and I could tell, Trevor was on one.  

This was against a great defense.  Trevor sat at the head of the table today!

---

It's just nice to know that when the play calling was actually similar to last year, we were able to win a game against an elite team.

There are many that were crying that our O-Line was so bad that we couldn't drive the ball deep.

I'm sure those guys are eating a lot of eggs and bacon right now.... along with a bit of crow.

GO JAGS!!!!!

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It's just nice to know that when the play calling was actually similar to last year, we were able to win a game against an elite team.

There are many that were crying that our O-Line was so bad that we couldn't drive the ball deep.

I'm sure those guys are eating a lot of eggs and bacon right now....  along with a bit of crow.

GO JAGS!!!!!

Same offense every single week - nothing changed - not at all
Today included. Nothing except the Calvin Ridley end around. 
Every thing else - exactly the same. 

Most bad plays and failed drives today can be shown to be the fault of the O-Line which played poorly for much of the contest.

No one cried that we can't drive the ball deep - we have been taking deep shots in every single game - many of them simply haven't been executed because the OL allowed pressure - so the whiners were whining that we don't take enough shots - we were sending routes deep and using play action at a clip above league average in weeks 1-4 
The idea we needed to do that more was wrong from the start.

What you are misremembering here ^ is that you were told we shouldn't take MORE deep shots - not that we can't do it - we never stopped sending the receivers on downfield routes - TL just didn't get the protection to hit them much of the time - it happened a lot today too
(literally posted multiple photos and gifs for you on this - you ignored the plain evidence) 

Lawrence is the 4th most pressured QB in the league on throws over 20 yards 
That number very likely got worse today - someone tweeted in the 3rd quarter today he had already been pressured 20 times in the ball game at that point

---

It's just nice to know that when the play calling was actually similar to last year, we were able to win a game against an elite team.

There are many that were crying that our O-Line was so bad that we couldn't drive the ball deep.

I'm sure those guys are eating a lot of eggs and bacon right now....  along with a bit of crow.

GO JAGS!!!!!

Same offense every single week - nothing changed - not at all

I mean, wow.  Bro.  Just go eat all the bacon and eggs you need.  I'll keep the crow for you on ice.

How can I discuss reality with you when you just start your discussion with an absolute falsehood?

PS:  "Nothing changed - not at all"

That's a double negative...  You just admitted that the offense did change!!!

Seriously.  If you don't want to have a real discussion, just say so.  But don't insult my intelligence, man.  This was an absolute different game from week 2, 3, and even 4.  You know it.  I know it.  Duuuvaall!!!  knows it.

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DUUUUUVAAAAAAAL!!!!!

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Same offense every single week - nothing changed - not at all

I mean, wow.  Bro.  Just go eat all the bacon and eggs you need.  I'll keep the crow for you on ice.

How can I discuss reality with you when you just start your discussion with an absolute falsehood?

PS:  "Nothing changed - not at all"

That's a double negative...  You just admitted that the offense did change!!!

Seriously.  If you don't want to have a real discussion, just say so.  But don't insult my intelligence, man.  This was an absolute different game from week 2, 3, and even 4.  You know it.  I know it.  Duuuvaall!!!  knows it.

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DUUUUUVAAAAAAAL!!!!!

Which plays were different besides the Ridley end around?

Name them

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