My Doug Pederson Argument to Mr Khan:

Let us not forget that Dave Caldwell got 8 years and Gus Bradley full four years of the most stank product on the field before Khan made a change.   Doug is riding high on 2 back to back winning seasons (an eternity in Jacksonville) along with a playoff win.  Doug Can Point out that they lost a lot of games in a one score manner.  Yes the offense had it's problems. For many reasons some of the players who came back in 2024 did not perform at their same level in previous years.  ETN has not been as good, Kirk has been hurt, Ingram was hurt for some of this year, Cam Robinson under-performed and got traded, the offensive line due to circumstances have been a patchwork unit, Due to injury the only real WR threat on the field currently is BJT.  The QB was hurt during the season but lets be honest he wan't playing good before the injury.  Despite all that, the offense has played well enough to keep us in games this year. 
  The real issue was the defense I would say to Mr Khan.  They are the last ranked unit for a reason. They played so bad while allowing some teams score on every possession it made Doug change his whole offensive game plan.  It's hard to establish any offense when the defense lets the offense stay on the field for 40 mins a game. I would argue that the offense could not run their game plan in many games due to how bad the defense played.

My Trent Baalke argument:

Hey Khan, those smart guys over at the Duval Pride message board are saying how Lawrence is the franchise and I drafted him.  BJT right now is looking like a stud and star WR and I drafted him.  Walker Little has been playing well at the LT spot and again I drafted him, I have been a part of the winning seasons and playoff win recently. We just gave some of our young talent new contracts. The fans are so happy they are wearing clown mask in the stands.  Overall this team has been competitive the last few years.  This season the Jaguars lost a handful of games by one score. I would argue this is an off year and field a detail plan on how to fix the holes on the team.  The first step is firing Neilson. Overall Baalke has been miles better than Either Dave Caldwell and Gene Smith before him.

I am not saying I want them to stay but Khan may decide to ride it out again.

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Nah. They’re both gone.

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Shifting deck chairs on the titanic

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No chance. This was the best team we've ever had... Picking top 5.

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Yeah hard to see how you can keep them based on the objective results. Also, still no correction of the issues (OC and DC still have their jobs).

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Shad doesn't need convincing to keep them both, he's already decided that a few months ago.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Shad doesn't need convincing to keep them both, he's already decided that a few months ago.

I feel like you don't actually believe this but you keep saying it as to reverse jinx the universe......

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There may be be some sacrificial firings at lower levels, but those two probably survive for many of the reasons stated by the OP.

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"Remember Red, Hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."  - Andy Dufresne, The Shawshank Redemption

Khan's reply to both: How do you two explain the Bills and Lions games? <crickets> GTFO of my office and don't stop until you're out of the city.

Look I understand Jags fans lowering their own expectations should the unspeakable happen, but at the end of the day both Baalke and Pederson signed off on bringing in Nielsen. The offense ranks 25th and the defense 32nd after 5 and 3 years into their Jaguars career, and if anything they've been declining since the 12th game of 2023.

And I can't stress this enough, the fact that Khan said "This Is The Best Team Ever Assembled By The Jacksonville Jaguars" has to be personally embarrassing when the team is 3-11. If I were a betting man, I'd put a lot of money on the odds that at least one of the two isn't returning.

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NYC4jags Wrote:
Can we leave the personal insults behind for a while and get back to some semblance of topic, gents?
Please, and thank you.

Shifting deck chairs on the titanic

I saw some brass that they could polish.

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s
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Shad doesn't need convincing to keep them both, he's already decided that a few months ago.

I feel like you don't actually believe this but you keep saying it as to reverse jinx the universe......

I completely understand why folks think they should and will be fired. I even agree with the reasons why. I simply don't think he'll do it. I think he'll see this as a one-off and that we really aren't far from being back where we were just 14 months ago with this crew. If anything I think it will be Pederson who goes and Baalke remains.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

no one is getting fired. Bolth doug,and Balke will be here in 2025.

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snowwolf titans owner in madden.

note titans owner means im undeafted againest them. 

Phil: I worked with Luke Fortner for a brief moment. I deserve an extension.

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I feel like you don't actually believe this but you keep saying it as to reverse jinx the universe......

I completely understand why folks think they should and will be fired. I even agree with the reasons why. I simply don't think he'll do it. I think he'll see this as a one-off and that we really aren't far from being back where we were just 14 months ago with this crew. If anything I think it will be Pederson who goes and Baalke remains.

@Fire Nielsen, bring back Caldwell? At least then we were flirting with .500@

I kinda side with cland, but in a wider context. We have the excuse of close losses, but so many of those were come-from-behind after the offense sputtered out the gates. That's a big problem, we have no analytical ability to gameplan a sequence of plays that is going to yield results or we have crap roster trying to execute well-thought strategies, or both. Given Shad's remarks to open the season about the best roster ever assembled, the criticism should fall on those planning, teaching, and directing our team on Sunday.

Doug has A LOT to answer for. After this entire season of morose, nearly apathetic responses to the media regarding the same, I got to wonder if he even puts up a fight against any criticism from ownership.

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I think there's a 50% chance Baalke is fired. I think there's a 65% chance Pederson is fired. I just don't see Khan getting rid of both of them though. He's yet to make a full sweeping effort since he honored Weaver's request of keeping Gene Smith onboard for that first year he owned the team.

At the minimum though. You can and should do a number of things if you're in Khan's position.

1. You hire a viable and legitimate football mind to takeover the front office and coaching staff at a high, executive level. If you're going to keep Baalke and Pederson onboard for one more season? At least introduce a new hire into the building for the future moving forward so they can inject new ideas and relay things to Khan that other people in that building cannot see. You need a true mediator at this point to balance out the imbalance. If this new hire after one year thinks that they both need to go and that he can personally hire or do better? Then let him do it. If he thinks one needs to go while the other stays? Let him do it.

2. You demand change if you're keeping both of them. There needs to be accountability laid bare for them to see internally. They both have failed at their jobs since the downfall of last year and they have both failed in addressing the issues that still linger and plague this roster. We can make the argument about the record number of games being lost by one score or less. However, that would be my exact counter argument and point. Why is it that you're unable to close that gap? Well, to the average fan, we already know the answer to that question. Goes back to what I just cited earlier. The same issues since day one.

Issue 1: No push down the middle, no impact and no outside pass rushing presence on defense. It's been the same two players effecting the QB more than anybody else and we have drafted players and signed players now over the last three years, along with a coaching change on defense, and, we're not getting any better. They both failed in this area. Last night was a good example of what a difference it makes having actual, viable talent to rotate with. The Broncos have one of the better pass rushing units in the NFL and you could see last night that their 3rd and 4th guys on the depth chart were effecting the game. We simply don't have that.

Issue 2: Consistent mistakes mentally crippling this team with error after error. It's the same song and dance. A fumble inside the redzone, a risky gamble on 4th down instead of taking the 3, a blown coverage in a critical 3rd down situation on defense, an interception being thrown with plenty of game time left to milk and move the ball downfield methodically. A crucial drop on 3rd down. A penalty that negates an actual TD. A questionable play call. These issues should not keep coming up if your coach is worth a damn. Yet, we see them too frequently and it happens with all of the players, regardless of paygrade and depth position. This is on the coaching staff in it's entirety.

Issue 3: Lack of an identity. Week in and week out. The identity of this team is always lost in limbo or soul searching. Even in the previous past two seasons where they finished 9 - 8. This team always boiled down to either Lawrence playing perfect football, or, the defense finding a way to make a turnover happen at the perfect time to compensate. None of that has happened since the injuries to Lawrence last year and those same injuries have once again hindered his development and set the team back in 2024. Again, this falls back on both of them.

Successful teams have an identity. A calling card. A hat trick or two. A clear vision that they impose on their opponents and clearly reflect from their front office, all the way through their coaching staff and it radiates with brilliance. We know what drives Kansas City. We know what drives Baltimore. We know what drives Detroit. We know what drives Buffalo. We don't know what really drives our team in Jacksonville.

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"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."

I completely understand why folks think they should and will be fired. I even agree with the reasons why. I simply don't think he'll do it. I think he'll see this as a one-off and that we really aren't far from being back where we were just 14 months ago with this crew. If anything I think it will be Pederson who goes and Baalke remains.

@Fire Nielsen, bring back Caldwell? At least then we were flirting with .500@

I kinda side with cland, but in a wider context. We have the excuse of close losses, but so many of those were come-from-behind after the offense sputtered out the gates. That's a big problem, we have no analytical ability to gameplan a sequence of plays that is going to yield results or we have crap roster trying to execute well-thought strategies, or both. Given Shad's remarks to open the season about the best roster ever assembled, the criticism should fall on those planning, teaching, and directing our team on Sunday.

Doug has A LOT to answer for. After this entire season of morose, nearly apathetic responses to the media regarding the same, I got to wonder if he even puts up a fight against any criticism from ownership.

I really struggle to understand the perspective of people who say this stuff about Pederson in his pressers. He's an NFL coach, those guys do their best to say nothing with as many words as possible. Pederson in particular was touted coming here as professional and an extremely even-keeled personality. That he's still the same guy win or lose is who he is, and I think it's unrealistic for people to think he's suddenly going to be this highly charged, emotional guy when he's at the podium. It doesn't mean he's apathetic unless it meant he was apathetic when they were winning because he was the same guy then too. Yeah, he smiled a bit more, but that's to be expected when the team is winning. He's clearly not happy where they are as a team, but he's not going to throw chairs and yell at the media because of it. And if he did come out and yell about the team and what was going on during the game people would say he's just deflecting the blame. "YOU PEOPLE SAW IT! [BLEEP] ETN DROPPED ANOTHER FUMBLE A YARD FROM PUTTING THE GAME AWAY! HE SUCKS! AND DID YOU SEE HOW OUR [BLEEP] COVERAGE GUYS TURNED RIGHT AROUND AND LET TYREEK HILL RUN HIS CHEETAH [BLEEP] RIGHT UP THE SIDELINE? MY MOTHER CAN TACKLE BETTER THAN THOSE PUNKS, BUT NOOOOOOOOOOO, THE COACHES ARE SUPPOSED TO STOP THAT BULL [BLEEP] FROM HAPPENING, RIGHT? GET *PUSHES PODIUM OFF THE STAGE* OUTTA HERE, I CAN'T EVEN WITH THIS [BLEEP] ANYMORE!!!" He's in a no-win situation because they are a losing team, no one wants to talk about a losing team losing, but it's part of the job and he has to do it.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

@Fire Nielsen, bring back Caldwell? At least then we were flirting with .500@

I kinda side with cland, but in a wider context. We have the excuse of close losses, but so many of those were come-from-behind after the offense sputtered out the gates. That's a big problem, we have no analytical ability to gameplan a sequence of plays that is going to yield results or we have crap roster trying to execute well-thought strategies, or both. Given Shad's remarks to open the season about the best roster ever assembled, the criticism should fall on those planning, teaching, and directing our team on Sunday.

Doug has A LOT to answer for. After this entire season of morose, nearly apathetic responses to the media regarding the same, I got to wonder if he even puts up a fight against any criticism from ownership.

I really struggle to understand the perspective of people who say this stuff about Pederson in his pressers. He's an NFL coach, those guys do their best to say nothing with as many words as possible. Pederson in particular was touted coming here as professional and an extremely even-keeled personality. That he's still the same guy win or lose is who he is, and I think it's unrealistic for people to think he's suddenly going to be this highly charged, emotional guy when he's at the podium. It doesn't mean he's apathetic unless it meant he was apathetic when they were winning because he was the same guy then too. Yeah, he smiled a bit more, but that's to be expected when the team is winning. He's clearly not happy where they are as a team, but he's not going to throw chairs and yell at the media because of it. And if he did come out and yell about the team and what was going on during the game people would say he's just deflecting the blame. "YOU PEOPLE SAW IT! [BLEEP] ETN DROPPED ANOTHER FUMBLE A YARD FROM PUTTING THE GAME AWAY! HE SUCKS! AND DID YOU SEE HOW OUR [BLEEP] COVERAGE GUYS TURNED RIGHT AROUND AND LET TYREEK HILL RUN HIS CHEETAH [BLEEP] RIGHT UP THE SIDELINE? MY MOTHER CAN TACKLE BETTER THAN THOSE PUNKS, BUT NOOOOOOOOOOO, THE COACHES ARE SUPPOSED TO STOP THAT BULL [BLEEP] FROM HAPPENING, RIGHT? GET *PUSHES PODIUM OFF THE STAGE* OUTTA HERE, I CAN'T EVEN WITH THIS [BLEEP] ANYMORE!!!" He's in a no-win situation because they are a losing team, no one wants to talk about a losing team losing, but it's part of the job and he has to do it.

I agree with this. I have since cooled off on all of that. Smug Doug or whatever. It's no different than the majority of the other 31 teams and their head coaches when you watch their post game conferences win or lose. Even teams that are winning. Look at how childish Siranni has been off and on. Look at how Belichick was historically. Even Dan Campbell has some funny moments up there in Detroit. It's an emotionally draining experience, win or lose. A rollercoaster of high's and low's. I get that.

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"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."

[...]

We can make the argument about the record number of games being lost by one score or less. However, that would be my exact counter argument and point. Why is it that you're unable to close that gap? Well, to the average fan, we already know the answer to that question. Goes back to what I just cited earlier. The same issues since day one.

[...]

Something to understand about some of the 'one-score games' is that the opposing coaches don't care if they win by 1 score or 2.  If the opposing coaches team is up by 2 scores with time ticking down in the 4th, the right call is to play a very conservative/safe defense taking away the downfield plays so long as the offense is chewing up clock to get down the field for the 1st of the 2 scores.  The blitzing stops, the edge pass rush is much more concerned with pocket contain, and while the offense is chewing up 10 yards at a time that's fine so long as at the ball ends up with the offense to burn out the game clock.

If the opposing offense goes into victory formation at the end of the game it doesn't matter how 'close' the score is.

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NYC4jags Wrote:
Can we leave the personal insults behind for a while and get back to some semblance of topic, gents?
Please, and thank you.

[...]

We can make the argument about the record number of games being lost by one score or less. However, that would be my exact counter argument and point. Why is it that you're unable to close that gap? Well, to the average fan, we already know the answer to that question. Goes back to what I just cited earlier. The same issues since day one.

[...]

Something to understand about some of the 'one-score games' is that the opposing coaches don't care if they win by 1 score or 2.  If the opposing coaches team is up by 2 scores with time ticking down in the 4th, the right call is to play a very conservative/safe defense taking away the downfield plays so long as the offense is chewing up clock to get down the field for the 1st of the 2 scores.  The blitzing stops, the edge pass rush is much more concerned with pocket contain, and while the offense is chewing up 10 yards at a time that's fine so long as at the ball ends up with the offense to burn out the game clock.

If the opposing offense goes into victory formation at the end of the game it doesn't matter how 'close' the score is.

Agreed. We have had at least six games though where it could have been won or lost on the final possession of the game. We lost to Miami, Green Bay, Cleveland, Philadelphia, Houston (at home) and the Jets recently in this fashion. I think that's how the folks in this camp will ultimately view the argument, possibly Khan. It's not like they were in games that were clearly out of hand or out of control in all of their losses this year. The only games this team really had it's [BLEEP] handed to them was in Buffalo, London against Chicago and then Detroit.

Those other losses were either winnable on the last possession on offense where a score would have taken the lead, or, we had the lead and lost the game all within probably that 1:00 - 3:00 minute range in Q4. It's a valid and legitimate argument, but, for me, again, it goes back to your points above. If your offense is able to score another possession via converting a crucial third down, or, steal a possession via a turnover, or, push the opponent back with viable pass rush on defense? We probably have at least a .500 record at the moment.

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"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."

[...]

We can make the argument about the record number of games being lost by one score or less. However, that would be my exact counter argument and point. Why is it that you're unable to close that gap? Well, to the average fan, we already know the answer to that question. Goes back to what I just cited earlier. The same issues since day one.

[...]

Something to understand about some of the 'one-score games' is that the opposing coaches don't care if they win by 1 score or 2.  If the opposing coaches team is up by 2 scores with time ticking down in the 4th, the right call is to play a very conservative/safe defense taking away the downfield plays so long as the offense is chewing up clock to get down the field for the 1st of the 2 scores.  The blitzing stops, the edge pass rush is much more concerned with pocket contain, and while the offense is chewing up 10 yards at a time that's fine so long as at the ball ends up with the offense to burn out the game clock.

If the opposing offense goes into victory formation at the end of the game it doesn't matter how 'close' the score is.

But, for example, that isn't what happened in either of the jags/tinhorn games this year. it didn't happen against Miami, Cleveland, the vikings or packers, and it didn't happen in the jests game last week. All of those games were close one score games right up until the end. Yeah, the were dog [BLEEP] in the bills, loins, and bares games, but the rest of the time, even with this trash team, they are playing hard competitive football against teams that are just a bit better. Close doesn't count on the schedule, but it matters greatly in organizational direction.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato