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SuperJville · 04-27-2016, 01:48 PM

Quote:Going back 10 years

D'Brickashaw Ferguson was picked 4th overall-NOT a bust.

Joe Thomas went 3rd overall in 2007-NOT a bust.

Jake Long went 1st overall in 2008-NOT a bust.

Trent Williams went 4th overall in 2010-NOT a bust

Lane Johnson went 4th overall in 2013-NOT a bust (though not a LT, either)

Others did not fare as well.

this is a good list. what it tells me is that even when offensive lineman "work out" and are not busts, despite being top 10 picks, they really don't make a significant impact for the franchise.

that is at least my opinion.

Bullseye · 04-27-2016, 01:56 PM

Quote:this is a good list. what it tells me is that even when offensive lineman "work out" and are not busts, despite being top 10 picks, they really don't make a significant impact for the franchise.

that is at least my opinion.

It tells me they are an important piece, but, like QBs, can't do it all by themselves.

Can you argue Boselli didn't make a significant impact for this franchise, or Munoz was a minor player in Bengals history?

Worst to 1st. Curse Reversed!

SuperJville · 04-27-2016, 02:00 PM

Quote:It tells me they are an important piece, but, like QBs, can't do it all by themselves.

Can you argue Boselli didn't make a significant impact for this franchise, or Munoz was a minor player in Bengals history?

Boselli, Ogden, and Munoz did. They were different animals. They actually COULD shut down the best defender consistently.

None of those guys, even the current pro bowlers, are anywhere near as good.

The difference between a Joe Thomas and say - Kelvin Beachum prior his injury was not that big IMO.

I don't know why LTs aren't dominant anymore, but they just aren't. If we could draft Tony Boselli's clone - yeah that would be worth a top 5 pick.

But guys that have been coming out in the last decade are just not anywhere near that level. That's why I would pass.

Bullseye · 04-27-2016, 02:09 PM

Quote:Boselli, Ogden, and Munoz did. They were different animals. They actually COULD shut down the best defender consistently.

None of those guys, even the current pro bowlers, are anywhere near as good.

The difference between a Joe Thomas and say - Kelvin Beachum prior his injury was not that big IMO.

I don't know why LTs aren't dominant anymore, but they just aren't. If we could draft Tony Boselli's clone - yeah that would be worth a top 5 pick.

But guys that have been coming out in the last decade are just not anywhere near that level. That's why I would pass.

Now this argument I buy...that the current crop of LTs isn't as good as the "golden age" at the position from about 1993-2003.

Some have attributed the comparative inferior quality of the LTs coming out now to the rise of the spread offenses and very quick passes overall. Tackles now often don't get into three point stances, don't have to hold their blocks very long, and are taught different things regarding footwork.

But that doesn't diminish the importance of the position. Just the effectiveness. As long as a defense's best weapon is a pass rusher, offenses will place a premium on pass protectors.

Worst to 1st. Curse Reversed!

~~Jagsfan32277~~ · 04-27-2016, 02:10 PM

Quote:Boselli, Ogden, and Munoz did. They were different animals. They actually COULD shut down the best defender consistently.

None of those guys, even the current pro bowlers, are anywhere near as good.

The difference between a Joe Thomas and say - Kelvin Beachum prior his injury was not that big IMO.

I don't know why LTs aren't dominant anymore, but they just aren't. If we could draft Tony Boselli's clone - yeah that would be worth a top 5 pick.

But guys that have been coming out in the last decade are just not anywhere near that level. That's why I would pass.

It is because the human bodies of defensive ends have evolved with GNC supplements and sports science. Defensive linemen are faster, stronger, bigger than they were decade, decades ago. Boselli and Munoz would be avg in todays game.

SuperJville · 04-27-2016, 02:11 PM

Looking at the teams that allowed the least amount of sacks last year - it's kind of surprising.

Rams, Ravens, Jets, Tamba Bay, etc...

teams that have allowed the most sacks:

titans, jaguars, 49ears, packers, seahawks, kansas city

there's high draft picks on each list playing left tackle.

it appears to me that it supports my viewpoint: the number of sacks, or protection in general, is probably more related to the type of offense you run, how often you pass, how conservative your OC is (having a RB to help, etc). Even a team with a perennial pro-bowler like Joe Thomas playing LT allows a ton of sacks. So what are drafting LTs for?

SuperJville · 04-27-2016, 02:13 PM

Quote:

But that doesn't diminish the importance of the position. Just the effectiveness. As long as a defense's best weapon is a pass rusher, offenses will place a premium on pass protectors.

and I agree with that sentiment - but I think getting a 2nd-3rd rounder (or a late 1st rounder) on the offensive line year in and year out is a better way of doing it.

drafting a lineman in the top 5 is just investing way too much draft capital...

SuperJville · 04-27-2016, 02:14 PM

Quote:It is because the human bodies of defensive ends have evolved with GNC supplements and sports science. Defensive linemen are faster, stronger, bigger than they were decade, decades ago. Boselli and Munoz would be avg in todays game.

Boselli would be by far the best LT in today's NFL. There is nobody even close.

Bullseye · 04-27-2016, 02:15 PM

Quote:Looking at the teams that allowed the least amount of sacks last year - it's kind of surprising.

Rams, Ravens, Jets, Tamba Bay, etc...

teams that have allowed the most sacks:

titans, jaguars, 49ears, packers, seahawks, kansas city

there's high draft picks on each list playing left tackle.

it appears to me that it supports my viewpoint: the number of sacks, or protection in general, is probably more related to the type of offense you run, how often you pass, how conservative your OC is (having a RB to help, etc). Even a team with a perennial pro-bowler like Joe Thomas playing LT allows a ton of sacks. So what are drafting LTs for?

If LTs were the only ones that allowed sacks, this argument would carry more weight.

But there are typically 5 offensive linemen on the field at any given time, and any of them can give up sacks. Furthermore, QBs are at fault for some sacks, receivers not getting open contribute to that, as well as missed blocks by RBs and TEs.

Worst to 1st. Curse Reversed!

SuperJville · 04-27-2016, 02:19 PM

Quote:If LTs were the only ones that allowed sacks, this argument would carry more weight.

But there are typically 5 offensive linemen on the field at any given time, and any of them can give up sacks. Furthermore, QBs are at fault for some sacks, receivers not getting open contribute to that, as well as missed blocks by RBs and TEs.

exactly!! My view is that the offensive line AS A WHOLE is very important. It's not like the LT position is WAAAAY more important than a RT or a C for example. Give me a group filled with 3rd rounders like AJ Cann and Linder at 5 positions, vs. having a top 2 pick playing LT and then having an undrafted guy playing C and RT... (which is what we had 2 years ago).

The jaguars made huge mistakes putting the LT position at a pedestal and having trash at 2 other positions. Players like JJ Watt can just line up against your undrafted RT (Hodor Pasztor) and there you are - pointless using your #2 overall pick on the LT.

Markulous · 04-27-2016, 02:21 PM

Quote:I never listen to him, hes awful. His reports are wrong 9 out of 10 times

I have to agree here. I unfollowed him on Twitter, he seemed more of a reporter that throws tons of poo at walls hoping it sticks rather than any actual insight.

Bullseye · 04-27-2016, 02:22 PM

Quote:exactly!! My view is that the offensive line AS A WHOLE is very important. It's not like the LT position is WAAAAY more important than a RT or a C for example. Give me a group filled with 3rd rounders like AJ Cann and Linder at 5 positions, vs. having a top 2 pick playing LT and then having an undrafted guy playing C and RT... (which is what we had 2 years ago).

The jaguars made huge mistakes putting the LT position at a pedestal and having trash at 2 other positions. Players like JJ Watt can just line up against your undrafted RT (Hodor Pasztor) and there you are - pointless using your #2 overall pick on the LT.

Successfully drafting a stud LT in the top five does not absolve or exempt a team from drafting competent OLs elsewhere in the draft. You can draft a stud LT in the top 5 AND draft quality guards, centers, and RTs later.

Worst to 1st. Curse Reversed!

SuperJville · 04-27-2016, 02:29 PM

Quote:Successfully drafting a stud LT in the top five does not absolve or exempt a team from drafting competent OLs elsewhere in the draft. You can draft a stud LT in the top 5 AND draft quality guards, centers, and RTs later.

Agreed - but I am trying to get a competent 5 with the least amount of draft capital invested.

If we had a top 5 pick and HAD to use it on a lineman.....

would you rather draft a 22 year old Joe Thomas... or use that top 5 pick and trade back and get 3 players in round 3? AJ Cann, Brandon Linder, and player X.

I would go for option number 2 (assuming in my hypothetical scenario you can only draft lineman).

and note - a top 5 pick would get you way more than 3 rd rounders - I was just using this example for emphasis.

It's just a matter of value. I don't think a lineman in the top 5 is good value.

KYjaggy · 04-27-2016, 04:38 PM

Quote:If they are smart they would do this. A left tackle is never the sexy pick but if they want to compete they should do this. As long as Rivers is getting sacked by Miller, Houston and Mack they won't stand a chance.

Houston and Mack primarily line up over the RT.

Etdavis2006 · 04-27-2016, 04:44 PM

Quote:Houston and Mack primarily line up over the RT.

They really line up all over the place really. But to say the blind side of a qb is not a premium spot is just crazy to me. Apparently the NFL GMs think this is still a premium position as well.

diamondjag28 · 04-27-2016, 05:05 PM

I pray the Cowboys take Zeke or bosa or bucker. Give us ramsey

knarnn · 04-28-2016, 12:35 AM

Tweet from Jordan Schultz (@Schultz_Report) - Lots of talk that #Chargers will nab Notre Dame OT Ronnie Stanley w/the 3rd pick. Chargers source confirms Stanley is the pick. #NFLDraft

https://twitter.com/Schultz_Report/statu...2855053312

"Before you criticize a man, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, if he gets angry, he's a mile away and barefoot."

~~JaguarsWoman~~ · 04-28-2016, 01:00 AM

Quote:Hopefully. There seems to be a lot of smoke around the Chargers taking a tackle, whether it be Stanley or Tunsil.

The Chargers said they prefer Ronnie Stanley because he has no red flags. The same article describes him as slower an Leremy Tunsil, but a better run blocker. Why would they pass on the better athlete?

rpr52121 · 04-28-2016, 01:39 AM

It would not make sense for Chargers to create smoke about a LT at #3 right now. No one is jumping them and no one is taking their guy.

~~DewtheMathis~~ · 04-28-2016, 01:44 AM

Quote:We discussed this yesterday, you have an aging franchise QB in Philip Rivers who's played behind one of the worst (injury plagued) offensive line in recent years, shoring up the line allows San Diego to compete (sooner than later) in that division.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/26360...-no-3-pick

As long as they don't draft DB Jalen Ramsey & if the Cowboys are stupid enough to pass on him too... I'll be happy... no way does GM Dave Caldwell miss out on a bigger Deion Sanders...