ytraM, I like the caution 'don't do that, it's way too much work' ; ).  I take that to mean you can see me attempting to compile such info.  I wish mate.  I appreciate the academic take and indeed, I meant the entire history of the franchise, hence TC, Mike Smith, Byron etc.  Plus, I must admit I do purposely stir the pot in some instances as I opine.  Passion does that.  But to your point, personnel mismanagement is multifacated indeed.  Isn't it reasonable to say that based on our output recordwise, in recent history, we have fell short in this area?  Hence, proficiency, at losing which is the outcome of personnel and coaching issues + intangibles.

 

Sure.  You just can't hang the mistakes of Gene Smith and Shack Harris around the neck of Dave Caldwell.  There's no connection other than the fact that they all happened at 1 Stadium Place.   (I think it's 1 Stadium Place, not 1 Alltel Place.) 

---

Mark Brunell SuperBowl Champion

Kennan Mccardell Superbowl Champion

 

Ha, I see what you doing there mate.  You know we can always tinker with lists to suit the contexts of arguments.

 

Jimmy Smith, Multiple Superbowl Champion (Before Jville)

 

Fred Taylor, wrong timing in New England, otherwise he'll be in the earlier list as well.

 

It's rather sad really, like a slap in the Jags' face...as in, championships for nearly all the former faces of your franchise, just not with you.

 

If you tell a casual sports fan from back in the day that Jimmy Smith, Keenan McCardell, Mark Brunell, Tom Coughlin, Byron Leftwich and Jack Del Rio all have superbowl rings, the fan will ponder when Jacksonville won the big game and even if more than once

 

Alas, just more angst ; )

---

Success is a journey, not a destination.  Go all out Mighty Jaguars.

The worst case may be Dan Connolly, starting guard/center for the Pats and now captain of their OL. He started out in Jax, and looked good here in two preseasons before he was eventually cut. I'm not sure why the Jags gave up on him. He was not an aging veteran, nor a cap casualty, nor a free agent.


 

As far as PFF ratings go, they can look at the plays, but can only guess at the assignments. If a pass rusher is unblocked by the OL and then picked up (or not) by a RB, was that the plan or did an offensive lineman badly miss an assignment? The PFF raters will not know that. From what I've seen PFF is fairly accurate with linemen, not so much at safety, and terrible at LB.


 

In fairness the the Jags OL, I've seen a lot of defenders run free to the QB, and suspect that most of those are due to the play design rather than a mistake. The RBs rarely succeeded in stopping anyone. The TEs (especially Jacobs and a guy I think we cut earlier) were terrible. Sam Young was bad, and McClendon had problems. None of those reflect on the five starters. The three interior starters appear to be as good as most in the NFL. Joeckel was disappointing, although not the worst I've seen (cough Salaam cough), and Pasztor was worse than last year. Battling injuries may have been a problem there.


 

There is reason for hope that the line will solidify with experience. Of course I remember a lot of players where I've hoped that was the case but it never materialized. Bringing in a good free agent RT is certainly warranted, and a LT will be needed if Joeckel doesn't improve significantly next year.

---

                                                                          

"Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?"

...My reason is frustration with the unfair and inaccurate criticism the offensive line has been getting as individuals.  As a unit I thought it looked really bad but after reading Alfie's article on BCC tonight even that presumption on my part was pretty much wrong.

 

...So I thought I would post how they get their numbers so maybe their analysis could get a little more credibility on the MB.  Every team in the NFL buys a much more sophisticated version of this stuff from PFF than what we can get as individuals.

 

...Reggie Nelson...  We discarded Justin Forsett ...

 

Without reading the entire thread and with respect to your good and worthwhile intentions, I feel compelled to quickly point out a few things. 

 

First:  PFF is pretty cool. It's amazing that they have the staff and infrastructure digitally to compile all the data and rankings that they do. It can be very useful in evaluation. BUT….  The more you read through their methodology and "created stats" that form these rankings, it becomes very apparent that the way they grade players that aren't ball handlers is often nebulous and left to the eye of the beholder. Beyond that - it assumes that the person evaluating each snap played actually has a clear idea of what that players assignment truly is within the scheme.  Already - without elaborating further - it's obvious that there is much room for error.  While it's certainly possible that individuals on the Jaguars O-Line performed well enough to be graded higher than we expect -  the fact of the matter is that most of them made crucial mistakes often enough to cause consistent problems in both the run and passing game this season.  It only takes one guy whiffing, missing his assignment, or flat getting beat to ruin a down.  And if the other 4 guys did their job then the "ranking" gets inflated. But there were too many instances of one guy just blowing it. 

 

Secondly:  

All of this second guessing about releasing players (and coaches) that go on to be productive is being overblown. 

Coughlin was screwing the pooch royally in Jax when he was fired and it was 100% deserved.  I couldn't be happier for the guy, but if you can't see how his success has depended upon the people around him "reigning him in" at times, then you haven't paid attention. The roller coaster that is the NY Giants paints the picture, He's at his best when allowed just enough control - but limited to the many things he wants to take over and over-pursue. 

 

Forsett?  Really?  C'mon folks.  He went to his old coach's offense and got healthy while the two backs in front of him got hurt/suspended. He was hurt in Jax when we were knee deep in a roster purge.  He had to go to make room for new, young talent, as that's what Caldwell was openly all about right away.

 

Make a case for Mike Smith if you want - but that's a former regime and now a moot point.

 

Make a case for Daryl Smith. Caldwell definitely should have retained him.  

 

Nelson?  C'mon. Ancient history and his poor play sealed his fate.  

 

Bottom line. PFF is cool but one stat never tells the whole story, and their grading is always gonna' be weird at several positions. 

On the whole - "we let talent leave" angle -  it's important to categorize within the current regime and not worry about what happened prior. 

We've got new guys calling shots now - and they've made more good moves than bad. 

 

I challenge anyone to examine two years of Shack's or Gene's draft/FA and find a time when they assembled more talent than DC has in the past two years.  And, for the love of God, don't quote record to me. If you can't see the talent (and economy) in the signings and draft picks from '13 and '14  as being better than we've seen in years, then you are blind.  The wins haven't come yet, but Caldwell is definitely bringing talent to the Jaguars. 

---

Without reading the entire thread and with respect to your good and worthwhile intentions, I feel compelled to quickly point out a few things. 

 

First:  PFF is pretty cool. It's amazing that they have the staff and infrastructure digitally to compile all the data and rankings that they do. It can be very useful in evaluation. BUT….  The more you read through their methodology and "created stats" that form these rankings, it becomes very apparent that the way they grade players that aren't ball handlers is often nebulous and left to the eye of the beholder. Beyond that - it assumes that the person evaluating each snap played actually has a clear idea of what that players assignment truly is within the scheme.  Already - without elaborating further - it's obvious that there is much room for error.  While it's certainly possible that individuals on the Jaguars O-Line performed well enough to be graded higher than we expect -  the fact of the matter is that most of them made crucial mistakes often enough to cause consistent problems in both the run and passing game this season.  It only takes one guy whiffing, missing his assignment, or flat getting beat to ruin a down.  And if the other 4 guys did their job then the "ranking" gets inflated. But there were too many instances of one guy just blowing it. 

 

Secondly:  

All of this second guessing about releasing players (and coaches) that go on to be productive is being overblown. 

Coughlin was screwing the pooch royally in Jax when he was fired and it was 100% deserved.  I couldn't be happier for the guy, but if you can't see how his success has depended upon the people around him "reigning him in" at times, then you haven't paid attention. The roller coaster that is the NY Giants paints the picture, He's at his best when allowed just enough control - but limited to the many things he wants to take over and over-pursue. 

 

Forsett?  Really?  C'mon folks.  He went to his old coach's offense and got healthy while the two backs in front of him got hurt/suspended. He was hurt in Jax when we were knee deep in a roster purge.  He had to go to make room for new, young talent, as that's what Caldwell was openly all about right away.

 

Make a case for Mike Smith if you want - but that's a former regime and now a moot point.

 

Make a case for Daryl Smith. Caldwell definitely should have retained him.  

 

Nelson?  C'mon. Ancient history and his poor play sealed his fate.  

 

Bottom line. PFF is cool but one stat never tells the whole story, and their grading is always gonna' be weird at several positions. 

On the whole - "we let talent leave" angle -  it's important to categorize within the current regime and not worry about what happened prior. 

We've got new guys calling shots now - and they've made more good moves than bad. 

 

I challenge anyone to examine two years of Shack's or Gene's draft/FA and find a time when they assembled more talent than DC has in the past two years.  And, for the love of God, don't quote record to me. If you can't see the talent (and economy) in the signings and draft picks from '13 and '14  as being better than we've seen in years, then you are blind.  The wins haven't come yet, but Caldwell is definitely bringing talent to the Jaguars. 

 

I agree with most of that.  

 

The case of Mike Smith: he was our DC, but wasn't he hired away to be HC of the Falcons?  He wasn't run out of town at all.  His hiring was the result of our success.   So he shouldn't be on any list of personnel mistakes.  He should be on a list of good moves we've made: hiring him in the first place. 

 

As an aside, why not put Jedd Fisch on the list?  A week after we fired him, he got hired by Jim Harbaugh at Michigan.  There's about a 90% chance Michigan does well with Harbaugh.   So Fisch will probably wind up on the list, too. 

 

Like I said, the list is interesting but pointless, because it's not the same people making the decisions, and other teams have the same type of list. 

 

Your last paragraph is important.   I would add, personally, I believe Gus is going to succeed here.  But even if he doesn't, Dave can still succeed here.   I would point to the case of San Francisco and Mike Singletary and whoever preceded him as coach.  They had a couple of failed coaches, but during that time they were accumulating talent and when they finally found the right guy, Harbaugh, they were ready to take off.   Same thing could happen here.  

---

Okay, now I'm confused.  Help me here, ytraM.  If San Fran is an aspiration to you ("Same thing could happen here"), then please tell me why we are having this conversation again?

 

San Fran under Harbaugh = Del Rio in Jax.  In terms of ultimate output, not isolated records, or media respect.  Couple of good seasons, playoffs, then fail.  Only, Del Rio did it, as we've all agreed, with less talent, and of course, over a longer stretch.

 

I thought the intent was championship.  Hence the Jags' current 'novel' approach.  By the way, I don't mind San Fran's approach, as long as we note that they invested HEAVILY in free agency under Harbaugh (not Jag's way thus far) to add to the youth they accumulated over time.  They'll be respectable for a while, indeed, but until they deliver the expected goods...

 

My list was purely a jolt, but factual.  The stirring came with one line that these guys were all run out of town.  Moot indeed.  Run out, FA departure, age, conduct, salary, performance...not the issue at hand.  They left Jacksonville and proved value elsewhere.  As every other team goes through, stealing your line.  Just a list, augmenting the OP's cry for Forsett and Reggie freaking Nelson, and illustrating that it can be applied to other players and situations.

 

NYC, I am a fan.  This line told me a lot "but there were too many instances of one guy just blowing it".  So, if all the pieces aren't in sync, it puts a strain on the entire unit.  Sometimes they make up for it, often they don't.  It's a challenge indeed, achieving consistency enough times to pull out Ws in the league.

---

Success is a journey, not a destination.  Go all out Mighty Jaguars.

 

My list was purely a jolt, but factual.  The stirring came with one line that these guys were all run out of town.  Moot indeed.  Run out, FA departure, age, conduct, salary, performance...not the issue at hand.  They left Jacksonville and proved value elsewhere.  As every other team goes through, stealing your line.  Just a list, augmenting the OP's cry for Forsett and Reggie freaking Nelson, and illustrating that it can be applied to other players and situations.

 

 

 

Sorry, I must be dense.  I understand the first part of your post, but I don't understand the part quoted above.  What exactly are you trying to say? 

---

I honestly don't know what response you seek.  If you perhaps specify which part you find confusing, I'd give my take.

 

In my view, self explantory.

 

Read Newbie's response to the question asked about why he/she made the thread...

 

His/her response quoted 2 players who left and are now succeeding elsewhere.  I took a facetious approach and provided more examples...

---

Success is a journey, not a destination.  Go all out Mighty Jaguars.

I honestly don't know what response you seek.  If you perhaps specify which part you find confusing, I'd give my take.

 

In my view, self explantory.

 

Read Newbie's response to the question asked about why he/she made the thread...

 

His/her response quoted 2 players who left and are now succeeding elsewhere.  I took a facetious approach and provided more examples...

 

You were being facetious?  

---

You absolutely got my point, ytraM. Only, I won't say we are unique - as acknowledged, it happens to every team - but proficient, in getting rid of our own.


You make good points but some facts are just that, facts.


Byron Leftwich, Superbowl Champion. Truly contributed to the success that year and looked marvellous against Washington in Primetime during Big Ben's absence.


Mincey appears to be doing the right things in Dallas and is considered a leader there. Go figure. Perhaps just maturity over time, as all of us exhibit?


We still don't know the real story behind the scenes for Monroe, do we? Or was it established that he was making such demands, in-season? He's battled injuries there, and been away briefly but come this weekend, should be the starting LT in the Divisional Round of the Playoffs. Underplayed, overplayed, he's their fixture.


Mike Smith faced his share of criticisms during Jack's era, along with the entire JDR regime. We seemed to appreciate him more once he left and we realized how much he patched up a unit that wasn't overflowing with talent.


Mathis is aged indeed, but he's our own. Detroit, a presently more successful franchise find him valuable as the vet to calm their youth at DB. I agree the timing of his depature from Jacksonville was about right, but again, he was vilified often, moreso in the latter stages here. Though outsiders continued to praise his output.


Forsett was added to boost the list seeing he looks pretty good in Baltimore, just after leaving da Ville. He's not our boy anyway, as stated.


Look, nitpicking players' games is what we all do as fans. Part of the game. My point is that all these currest post-Jag successes show that there are sizeable fundamental flaws within the walls of 1 Alltel Place (they maintained that address?). It's seen in our game day output, our draft acquisitions, FAs in recent past (not the latest corps), etc. There's just some sort of dark cloud that's been hanging over the franchise since that fateful 2nd half vs. titans in 2000, in spite of solid efforts to seek improvement (JDR teased with those playoffs appearances later in the decade; we knew we hadn't really arrived). We are still seeking some semblance of identity, of continuity, of belief. Time is our ally.

Disagree on most of these but mainly Mike Smith. I think most thought he was a pretty damn good DC here. I know I was disappointed when he left for Atlanta but good DCs move on the HC jobs. Nothing new.

---

<a target="_blank" href="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v107/chuckd132132/p1_manning_all_200.jpg" target="_blank">VIEW IMAGE</a>

I guess that must mean Seattle, Indy, and Houston coaches all suck too. Hell, Seattle let Forsett go TWICE. They must REALLY suck.

No it just means our coaches can't coach. Do you need their record since being here to confirm that? Those other teams you tried to pull out your [BLEEP] goes to the playoffs a lot.

---