My apologies if this doesn't deserve its own thread and mods do with it as you wish if it doesn't.

 

I and others have been vocal of displeasure with both OC and DC positions.  The coaching, in my eyes, has been subpar across the board.  It's not all about the numbers (though those are certainly bad too) but the consistently poor play, players looking lost, the soft coverage on defense, the short passing play calls on offense, all around it's been below average.  Some players seem to have regressed, Gratz being one example.  He wasn't a world-beater last season but he's been flat out bad when he's been on the field this season.

 

I don't like Fisch's offense.  The plays remind me of a college offense.  A short to occasionally intermediate passing game that might excel at a college level where you have discrepancies in talent at the skill positions from team to team.  You don't have that, to that extent, in the NFL.  This is another situation where I don't even have to look at the numbers, the play and the play calling has been bad.  We're a full season and 5 games into it.  If it hasn't changed by now I don't see it changing.  I don't see a lot of adjustments either way, offense or defense, that lead me to believe great success is coming.

 

I'm curious for those that think Fisch and Babich are good enough, what leads you to think that?  What about their coaching do you see as a positive?  What have you been impressed with, from either side, that makes you think they shouldn't be upgraded?  Help me out here, I'm hoping this leads to good discussion and not name calling back and forth and a bunch of drivel. 

 

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What is Babich other than Bradley's assistant in calling the defense?  I can understand changing the OC since Bradley is not an offensive coach.... but changing DC is pretty pointless.  This is Gus' defense.

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What is Babich other than Bradley's assistant in calling the defense?  I can understand changing the OC since Bradley is not an offensive coach.... but changing DC is pretty pointless.  This is Gus' defense.

 

Well, then maybe Gus needs to go too.  This defense needs a big change.  I don't understand how we can consistently play coverage several yards off of receivers, get burnt, and not fix it.

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I think Fisch should have been gone last year.  Now, he's going to have to stick around at least one more year, I think.  We don't want Bortles to have to learn ANOTHER new offense in his second year.  I could see giving someone else play calling duties maybe.  


As for Babich, I think bringing in a good defensive coordinator would help even a defensive mind like Gus's.  I think if our Defense continues to falter, then we'll see a new D-Coordinator next year.

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I was wrong about Trent Baalke. 

I'm waiting to see the rookies ripen on offense before I determine if I'm sold on Fisch.  I'll have a more complete opinion on him December.

 

Babich I have less confidence in.  I don't like how soft the zone coverage has looked this year compared to last and I wonder if more could be done to stitch up the holes even w/o a solid FS and obvious need at OLB.  I'm not selling him down the river yet either, but I'm leaning that way ever so slightly. 

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What is Babich other than Bradley's assistant in calling the defense?  I can understand changing the OC since Bradley is not an offensive coach.... but changing DC is pretty pointless.  This is Gus' defense.

 

 

Well, then maybe Gus needs to go too.  This defense needs a big change.  I don't understand how we can consistently play coverage several yards off of receivers, get burnt, and not fix it.

 

 

 

I agree with Scarecrow, if this is indeed Gus' defense and Babich is nothing but a figurehead, then Gus, Babich and Fisch all need to go. 

 

I'm still not sure that Gus doesn't give Babich some autonomy. Babich sucked as DC for the Chicago Bears several years back so him sucking here at the same role isn't surprising. Babich's ceiling is LB coach. Peter Principle. 

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I think Fisch should have been gone last year.  Now, he's going to have to stick around at least one more year, I think.  We don't want Bortles to have to learn ANOTHER new offense in his second year.  I could see giving someone else play calling duties maybe.  .

 

Yes, its much better to just waste another year of Bortles window of development with Fisch than to just nip the problem in the bud and get a good OC next year... :wacko: 

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IMO, Fisch & Babich are easily the worst OC/ DC combo in the NFL. 

 

Thats what you often get when hiring your head coach with zero prior head coaching experience. 

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Well, then maybe Gus needs to go too.  This defense needs a big change.  I don't understand how we can consistently play coverage several yards off of receivers, get burnt, and not fix it.

 

This is definitely Gus' scheme.

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My apologies if this doesn't deserve its own thread and mods do with it as you wish if it doesn't.

 

I and others have been vocal of displeasure with both OC and DC positions.  The coaching, in my eyes, has been subpar across the board.  It's not all about the numbers (though those are certainly bad too) but the consistently poor play, players looking lost, the soft coverage on defense, the short passing play calls on offense, all around it's been below average.  Some players seem to have regressed, Gratz being one example.  He wasn't a world-beater last season but he's been flat out bad when he's been on the field this season.

 

I don't like Fisch's offense.  The plays remind me of a college offense.  A short to occasionally intermediate passing game that might excel at a college level where you have discrepancies in talent at the skill positions from team to team.  You don't have that, to that extent, in the NFL.  This is another situation where I don't even have to look at the numbers, the play and the play calling has been bad.  We're a full season and 5 games into it.  If it hasn't changed by now I don't see it changing.  I don't see a lot of adjustments either way, offense or defense, that lead me to believe great success is coming.

 

I'm curious for those that think Fisch and Babich are good enough, what leads you to think that?  What about their coaching do you see as a positive?  What have you been impressed with, from either side, that makes you think they shouldn't be upgraded?  Help me out here, I'm hoping this leads to good discussion and not name calling back and forth and a bunch of drivel. 

 

My primary basis for faith in Fisch comes from Michael Irvin's endorsement of him as a coordinator.  He dealt with him at the University of Miami and apparently got to know his philosophy, etc.

 

Since I saw Irvin's endorsement of him, and watching the games, I think he has been okay.  There have been times where I have really liked his playcalling (e.g. the halfback pass last year vs. the Texans), first half v. San Diego this year.  Even on the flea flicker that was so maligned, Hurns was open deep, but poor blocking by the rookie TE ruined the play.  Against Pittsburgh, bad execution stymied some early drives.

 

He hasn't been a perfect playcaller by any stretch.  I got sick of the bubble screens, and even though I know the OL is struggling, part of me wishes he wouldn't abandon the run.

 

But I think the receivers and Bortles are developing decently under him thus far.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

This is definitely Gus' scheme.

 

Then Gus needs to either wake up and change his defense or hit the bricks. 

 

IMO, Fisch & Babich are easily the worst OC/ DC combo in the NFL. 

 

Thats what you often get when hiring your head coach with zero prior head coaching experience. 

 

That wouldn't be a hard argument to make.  The offense and defense have been below average the entire time they've been here.  Not only have the numbers been bad the scheme/players look poor too.

 

I think Fisch should have been gone last year.  Now, he's going to have to stick around at least one more year, I think.  We don't want Bortles to have to learn ANOTHER new offense in his second year.  I could see giving someone else play calling duties maybe.  


As for Babich, I think bringing in a good defensive coordinator would help even a defensive mind like Gus's.  I think if our Defense continues to falter, then we'll see a new D-Coordinator next year.

 

I'd be fine with cutting Fisch loose ASAP.  Let him move on and try his hand elsewhere.  Blake can learn another offense fine, this time it needs to be the right choice though.  I would have loved to have had Norv Turner here to coach Bortles.  That would have been a great guy for Bortles to have with him.

 

I'm waiting to see the rookies ripen on offense before I determine if I'm sold on Fisch.  I'll have a more complete opinion on him December.

 

Babich I have less confidence in.  I don't like how soft the zone coverage has looked this year compared to last and I wonder if more could be done to stitch up the holes even w/o a solid FS and obvious need at OLB.  I'm not selling him down the river yet either, but I'm leaning that way ever so slightly. 

 

I understand the rookies on offense, I do.  I don't have a problem with how you see it either, I get that as well.  My biggest issue is with Fisch's plays themselves.  They stink.  I don't think they'll work and thus far they haven't.  This isn't Miami, this isn't college, this is the big boys league.  That quick pass, short game offense doesn't work when the defenders are smarter, faster and better coached than in college.  You can get away with that type of offense when you're playing with 5 star recruits and generally have an athletic/talent advantage over your opponent.  That does not happen often in the pros.

 

Agree wholeheartedly on Babich and the soft coverage.  

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My primary basis for faith in Fisch comes from Michael Irvin's endorsement of him as a coordinator.  He dealt with him at the University of Miami and apparently got to know his philosophy, etc.

 

Since I saw Irvin's endorsement of him, and watching the games, I think he has been okay.  There have been times where I have really liked his playcalling (e.g. the halfback pass last year vs. the Texans), first half v. San Diego this year.  Even on the flea flicker that was so maligned, Hurns was open deep, but poor blocking by the rookie TE ruined the play.  Against Pittsburgh, bad execution stymied some early drives.

 

He hasn't been a perfect playcaller by any stretch.  I got sick of the bubble screens, and even though I know the OL is struggling, part of me wishes he wouldn't abandon the run.

 

But I think the receivers and Bortles are developing decently under him thus far.

 

Well then is Irvins endorsement of him merit related or "U & M homeboy" related?

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I'm confused with the defensive criticism this week.  We held pittsburgh to 10 offensive points.  Now we will see if that was a fluke or not, but at least give credit where it is due.  Defense played much better.

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I would have loved to have had Norv Turner here to coach Bortles.  That would have been a great guy for Bortles to have with him.

  

 

I agree. He was out there, too. 

 

My hope is that the Jags ditch the top 3 and bring in Jim Harbaugh as HC and Rex Ryan as DC, 

 

Harbaugh would work wonders with Bortles, just like he did with Alex Smith. Alex Smith was Gabbert-level bad before Harbaugh got there, and transformed Smith into a QB that helped lead that team to the NFC Title game. 

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My primary basis for faith in Fisch comes from Michael Irvin's endorsement of him as a coordinator.  He dealt with him at the University of Miami and apparently got to know his philosophy, etc.

 

Since I saw Irvin's endorsement of him, and watching the games, I think he has been okay.  There have been times where I have really liked his playcalling (e.g. the halfback pass last year vs. the Texans), first half v. San Diego this year.  Even on the flea flicker that was so maligned, Hurns was open deep, but poor blocking by the rookie TE ruined the play.  Against Pittsburgh, bad execution stymied some early drives.

 

He hasn't been a perfect playcaller by any stretch.  I got sick of the bubble screens, and even though I know the OL is struggling, part of me wishes he wouldn't abandon the run.

 

But I think the receivers and Bortles are developing decently under him thus far.

 

My question would be, what makes Irvin's endorsement mean anything in terms of Fisch's success in Jacksonville?  That's about as biased of a viewpoint as you can get.

 

I respect your opinion Bullseye and understand where you're coming from but Irvin's opinion doesn't hold water to me.  What worked in college doesn't necessarily work when you go up to the next level.

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I'm confused with the defensive criticism this week.  We held pittsburgh to 10 offensive points.  Now we will see if that was a fluke or not, but at least give credit where it is due.  Defense played much better.

 

Thats misleading. Pitt was about to score again when the clock ran out. 

 

 

If the Jags can't limit Checkdown Charlie & company this week, then we'll see that last week was a fluke. 

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Fisch: Without a run game, a short passing game is paramount. Bringing the safetys closer to the line to stop the run/short pass game gives the ability to attack downfield. We've seen the success the PA bootlegs and the pump and gos have generated. A short passing game is heavily based on timing and repetition which this young offense lacks. Until this offense can consistently run the ball or properly execute a short passing game, the downfield passes will be rare. 

 

Babich: The defense completely perplexes me. That is all.

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Fisch: Without a run game, a short passing game is paramount. Bringing the safetys closer to the line to stop the run/short pass game gives the ability to attack downfield...

 

 

....which for the most part - the last 6 quarters they have not. #dinkdunk

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Well then is Irvins endorsement of him merit related or "U & M homeboy" related?

 

My question would be, what makes Irvin's endorsement mean anything in terms of Fisch's success in Jacksonville?  That's about as biased of a viewpoint as you can get.

 

I respect your opinion Bullseye and understand where you're coming from but Irvin's opinion doesn't hold water to me.  What worked in college doesn't necessarily work when you go up to the next level.

 

Well, prior to last year, any endorsement of Fisch by Irvin could not have been merit based if we are looking at what he had done in the NFL as a coordinator because, to the best of my knowledge, Fisch was not a coordinator at the NFL level prior to being named coordinator here.

 

My take on this is relatively simple. 

 

I respect Michael Irvin's football knowledge.

 

Irvin thrived under one of the great offensive coordinators of the last 30 years in Norv Turner.  Having been a HOF receiver, he knows what works at the NFL level.  I don't think it is a stretch to apply what he saw in Fisch's schemes to what he experienced in the NFL and predict success with those philosophies.

 

 

I do not recall Irvin endorsing any other UM coaches (i.e. Dennis Erickson) for NFL coaching success simply due to their ties to Miami.

 

I was uncertain about Fisch when he was named.  Irvin's endorsement made me a little more comfortable with the hire and, that, combined with the vast inexperience of the offense, allows me to give Fisch the benefit of the doubt.

 

This does not last forever, however, and Irvin's endorsement does not insulate Fisch from the obligation to produce an effective offense once the guys get experience.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

....which for the most part - the last 6 quarters they have not. 

 

Well the point was this inability to bring the safetys up stems from poor execution which is a result of youth and the possibility of poor talent(hopefully not)

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