He says that "Ramsey's first half of the season was in fact below average."


As myself and others have pointed out, that has not been the case.

Absolutely not. Sides no int's.  He played top of the line receivers and shut um down. 

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Bleeding Teal since 1995. The Icon Teal Time Radio aka ctjags

  #Gojags

He says that "Ramsey's first half of the season was in fact below average."


As myself and others have pointed out, that has not been the case.

My proof of the statement is after the Lions game week 10 he was giving up a 102.4 passer rating against for the season. Opposing QBs were essentially top 5 all pro level QBs when targeting him for more than half of the season. I also provided a passer rating tool to show that it's not easy to BS a passer rating that high, given that we also know his comp % against was right at 60%. 

 

Yours and others retort to prove the opposite has amounted to basically saying "nuh uh" and assuming that mob mentality will win the day. Which is unfortunately a common and effective strategy in a highly biased crowd such as a team NFL forum.

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I think you can boil it down to this:

 

Was he a good corner the first half of the season? Absolutely not.

 

Was he a good corner for a rookie who often shadowed the other teams #1 WR and didn't get a lot of help from the pass rush? Sure, if you couch it with a bunch of qualifiers he did well considering the circumstances, which is what I have said all along. 

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When targeted? So if the QB looks the other way 59 times a game and targets Ramsey once for a completion - he'd give up 100% completions when targeted?


Is that how that stat works?

Stats are like bikinis: what they show is interesting, what they hide is critical.

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You think completion percentage and passer rating are PFF numbers? I would call you an even bigger idiot in return, but I don't need to resort to ad hominem to debate.

If he covers a WR 20 times where the quarterback doesn't even throw his way, how does that equate into the qbs completion percentage and passer rating? Answer that one, genius.

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PFF is awesome. They're gaining a lot of traction this year. Has anybody else noticed on Sunday Night Football games that when they reel off each team's offensive and defensive starters that they show you their PFF rankings? Pretty cool. 

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"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."

PFF is awesome. They're gaining a lot of traction this year. Has anybody else noticed on Sunday Night Football games that when they reel off each team's offensive and defensive starters that they show you their PFF rankings? Pretty cool.

I think they do that because of Collinsworth. I heard him on an interview (Rich Eisen show maybe,, iirc) where Collinsworth explained a lot about the PFF rankings and how they are accumulated. I'm pretty sure Collinsworth has a lot to do with it (but I could be mistaken).

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I think they do that because of Collinsworth. I heard him on an interview (Rich Eisen show maybe,, iirc) where Collinsworth explained a lot about the PFF rankings and how they are accumulated. I'm pretty sure Collinsworth has a lot to do with it (but I could be mistaken).

Collinsworth is a part owner of PFF.

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I have eyes, which tell me all I need to know.


Best rookie we've had since Freddy.

A strong statement.

 

As intriguing as it is to consider/debate, you may well be right.

 

The really sad part is there aren't many even worthy of comparison since FT.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

My proof of the statement is after the Lions game week 10 he was giving up a 102.4 passer rating against for the season. Opposing QBs were essentially top 5 all pro level QBs when targeting him for more than half of the season. I also provided a passer rating tool to show that it's not easy to [BAD WORD REMOVED] a passer rating that high, given that we also know his comp % against was right at 60%.


Yours and others retort to prove the opposite has amounted to basically saying "nuh uh" and assuming that mob mentality will win the day. Which is unfortunately a common and effective strategy in a highly biased crowd such as a team NFL forum.

Havn't seen the passer rating stats yet but I won't dispute it with you for now.


How about we break down the first 10 games of the season game by game and decide if he had a good game or not?


So here's what we know.


Games 1-3 vs Packers, Chargers and Ravens = Per PFF he allowed 10 catches for 63 yards in these 3 games. Allowed a league leading 6.3 yards per catch. Very impressive in his first 3 weeks.


Game 4 vs Colts ,

Shut down Ty Hilton (who has been one of the best receivers this year) Dorsett had a 64 TD due to blown coverage was credited against Ramsey I believe.


Game 5 vs Bears

Jeffrey had 90 yards against him. Alshon bodied him in the first half, Ramsey adjusted in the second and shut him down. Had the game sealing PD.


Game 6 vs Raiders

Shut down Amari Cooper. Allowed 1 catch for 4 yards the entire game. 83 passer rating against on that 1 catch.


Game 7- Titans

Bad fame by the Jags but Ramsey played pretty good from what I recall. Allowed at best 50 yards in this game. If you disagree please say why


Game 8- Chiefs

Nick Foles played awful and couldn't get anything done apart from the long Kelce TD which wasn was on Telvin/Gibson. Wilson their WR had 45 yards, Conley had 28. Ramsey played great.


Game 9 vs Texans

Shadowed Hopkins all game. Hopkins was targeted 13 times and had 5 catches for 48 yards against him. Probably had a high passer rating against him but in reality he did his job very well. Great game by Ramsey


Game 10 vs Lions

Played great. Don't have much stats for this but if you disagree let me know why.


Any disagreements here?


As you have stated with Fowler, stats are important to be viewed with context.


Although Ramsey might have had a high completion and passer rating against him its important to consider where those completions and yards came from. In the scheme we play the defense is designed around giving up those short underneath routes and to stop the deep passing plays. Ramsey has played his role great apart from a game or two those first 10 games.


Those short underneath routes are a high % pass and probably give QBs a very high QB rating but in reality they are part of pur gameplan on D and do very little damage.



So to summarize, Ramsey had at best 2 bad games in the first 10 games. The rest were good to very good performances from him. His play in the first 10 games was not below average despite the passer rating and %.


Oh yeah he was a great run defender the first 10 games too. One of the best in the league at cornerback in fact.

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I think you can boil it down to this:


Was he a good corner the first half of the season? Absolutely not.


Was he a good corner for a rookie who often shadowed the other teams #1 WR and didn't get a lot of help from the pass rush? Sure, if you couch it with a bunch of qualifiers he did well considering the circumstances, which is what I have said all along.

Its true with or without the qualifiers.


People said last year that Bortles was good because he had good counting stats. You disputed it because the context of those stats disagreed with that. You were right.


You are saying that Ramsey was below average because he had a high passer rating and completion % against him. When you look at the context of those stats, you can see that they misleading and arn't actually a good measure of how well he played at all.

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Man.


Ramsey is having a DROY type season and we got a guy nitpicking at that?


He has shut down high profile receivers all season. Including Hopkins twice.

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He has been highly impressive. Still eating crow.

You will be eating it for a long time and I'll be sure to remind you.

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Interesting how one can let stats color what your own eyes should be making very clear to you.


I couldn't give a rat's [BLEEP] about "passer rating against" or completion %.


The kid clearly played great for a rookie and better than many starting vets.


No additional qualifiers needed. Watch the damn games. It's plain as day that he wasn't a "below average corner" for any significant length of time of the season. Nothing could be plainer to see.


Twisting up this kid's performance in his rookie year with a bunch of convoluted stats is a classic fool's errand.

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My proof of the statement is after the Lions game week 10 he was giving up a 102.4 passer rating against for the season. Opposing QBs were essentially top 5 all pro level QBs when targeting him for more than half of the season. I also provided a passer rating tool to show that it's not easy to [BAD WORD REMOVED] a passer rating that high, given that we also know his comp % against was right at 60%.


Yours and others retort to prove the opposite has amounted to basically saying "nuh uh" and assuming that mob mentality will win the day. Which is unfortunately a common and effective strategy in a highly biased crowd such as a team NFL forum.

A CB could do his job 99 times out of 100 so well that the QB can't even throw his way at Passer Rating Against gives ZERO credit to those 99 plays.


In other words, volume needs to be considered alongside rate stats (ie. Passer rating and completion percentage). Something tells me you've never taken a statistics class?


This entire thread is filled with posters requesting volume numbers to get the whole picture. Stop ignoring them.

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Havn't seen the passer rating stats yet but I won't dispute it with you for now.


How about we break down the first 10 games of the season game by game and decide if he had a good game or not?


So here's what we know.


Games 1-3 vs Packers, Chargers and Ravens = Per PFF he allowed 10 catches for 63 yards in these 3 games. Allowed a league leading 6.3 yards per catch. Very impressive in his first 3 weeks.


Game 4 vs Colts ,

Shut down Ty Hilton (who has been one of the best receivers this year) Dorsett had a 64 TD due to blown coverage was credited against Ramsey I believe.


Game 5 vs Bears

Jeffrey had 90 yards against him. Alshon bodied him in the first half, Ramsey adjusted in the second and shut him down. Had the game sealing PD.


Game 6 vs Raiders

Shut down Amari Cooper. Allowed 1 catch for 4 yards the entire game. 83 passer rating against on that 1 catch.


Game 7- Titans

Bad fame by the Jags but Ramsey played pretty good from what I recall. Allowed at best 50 yards in this game. If you disagree please say why


Game 8- Chiefs

Nick Foles played awful and couldn't get anything done apart from the long Kelce TD which wasn was on Telvin/Gibson. Wilson their WR had 45 yards, Conley had 28. Ramsey played great.


Game 9 vs Texans

Shadowed Hopkins all game. Hopkins was targeted 13 times and had 5 catches for 48 yards against him. Probably had a high passer rating against him but in reality he did his job very well. Great game by Ramsey


Game 10 vs Lions

Played great. Don't have much stats for this but if you disagree let me know why.


Any disagreements here?


As you have stated with Fowler, stats are important to be viewed with context.


Although Ramsey might have had a high completion and passer rating against him its important to consider where those completions and yards came from. In the scheme we play the defense is designed around giving up those short underneath routes and to stop the deep passing plays. Ramsey has played his role great apart from a game or two those first 10 games.


Those short underneath routes are a high % pass and probably give QBs a very high QB rating but in reality they are part of pur gameplan on D and do very little damage.



So to summarize, Ramsey had at best 2 bad games in the first 10 games. The rest were good to very good performances from him. His play in the first 10 games was not below average despite the passer rating and %.


Oh yeah he was a great run defender the first 10 games too. One of the best in the league at cornerback in fact.

This is a great breakdown, but KYJaggy isn't going to respond. He's basically trolling at this point.

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Collinsworth is a part owner of PFF.

Which explains everything. The dude is a complete hamroll and makes sense he would have his hand in that garbage.

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You either die as a good poster, or live long enough to become the troll.

As you have stated with Fowler, stats are important to be viewed with context.


Although Ramsey might have had a high completion and passer rating against him its important to consider where those completions and yards came from. In the scheme we play the defense is designed around giving up those short underneath routes and to stop the deep passing plays. Ramsey has played his role great apart from a game or two those first 10 games.


Those short underneath routes are a high % pass and probably give QBs a very high QB rating but in reality they are part of pur gameplan on D and do very little damage.



So to summarize, Ramsey had at best 2 bad games in the first 10 games. The rest were good to very good performances from him. His play in the first 10 games was not below average despite the passer rating and %.


Oh yeah he was a great run defender the first 10 games too. One of the best in the league at cornerback in fact.

I'm not going to go back and review every game individually again, but as I have said many times I provided the tool that shows you don't get over a 100 passer rating against simply by allowing a lot of short underneath routes at a high %.

 

We know it's 60% average so let's just keep it simple and say he gave up 3 receptions on 5 targets every game. If that were the case 60 yards per game at an NFL leading 20 ypc (Hogan leads the NFL at 19.2) would get to just barely below Ramsey's 102.4 passer rating. Obviously he wasn't giving up plays like that so maybe it was something like ~35 yards per game and a TD allowed every other game. That averages out to the right passer rating too, but a very high TD rate. And unfortunately the one long busted coverage on Hilton that may or may not have been his fault doesn't skew the total passer rating that much by itself. 

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Can't wait to see Ramsey against Luck this week. Can he make it three weeks with an INT in a row?

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IT WAS ALWAYS THE JAGS

Its true with or without the qualifiers.


People said last year that Bortles was good because he had good counting stats. You disputed it because the context of those stats disagreed with that. You were right.


You are saying that Ramsey was below average because he had a high passer rating and completion % against him. When you look at the context of those stats, you can see that they misleading and arn't actually a good measure of how well he played at all.

Unfortunately it's not really the same because the point of my argument is Blake was being propped up by the counting stats when the underlying rate stats that show a much better story is what people should have been paying attention to.

 

Passer rating is obviously a rate stat.

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