I'm not comparing Mendela to Hitler at all, I'm pointing out the flaw in your argument that whatever Mendela did can be overlooked because he had the "good of his poeple" in mind. You can say almost ANY dictator, liberator, terrorist, tyrant and so on had the good of their people in mind, that NEVER excuses acts of an individual or organization.

When did I say it could be overlooked? That's not even close to my argum--

 

Nevermind. You win. I really don't actually feel like explaining the dynamics of politics on a football message board.

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THERE IS A SKELETON INSIDE OF YOU.

 

RIGHT NOW. THIS IS NOT A JOKE.

I'll accept you conceding defeat, you have a fixation on me when the topic at hand is Mendale.

 

I must admit that fake compassion is irritating. I bet you cry at weddings.

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The sun's not yellow, it's chicken.

My opinion of Nelson Mandela is as low or lower than Eric's opinion of Mandela.  Being that my opinions of Mandela would violate the COC to the nth degree,  I'll just say that the hideous leaders around the world Mandela supported before and after he was released from prison will cement my opinion of Mandela forever:

 

On the other hand, there is a leader in South Africa who I admire greatly:  Rev. MP Kenneth Meshoe:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Meshoe

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Ah, such blatant hypocrisy. Mandela and the ANC accepted support from and supported despots. Do you really want to go there, given the not so distant histories of some of the greatest democracies of our times, most notably ours?

 

Desperate times call for desperate measures. Again, I pose the question. Where is the line drawn when freedom is denied?

 

The man endured years of oppression, and more years of imprisonment, yet emerged to heal a country, reconcile with and include his oppressors in the new South Africa, and avoided the bloodbath that occurred in so many other similar situations.

 

Rev. Meshoe is an admirer of Nelson Mandela. He understands what he meant to South Africa.

---

If something can corrupt you, you're corrupted already.
- Bob Marley


 

My opinion of Nelson Mandela is as low or lower than Eric's opinion of Mandela.  Being that my opinions of Mandela would violate the COC to the nth degree,  I'll just say that the hideous leaders around the world Mandela supported before and after he was released from prison will cement my opinion of Mandela forever:

 

On the other hand, there is a leader in South Africa who I admire greatly:  Rev. MP Kenneth Meshoe:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Meshoe

 

When you are combatting a very vicious regime I think you have to go on the theory that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

 

Foreign policy isn't for the weak of heart. I'm sure you're aware of some of the real beauties the United States supported in it's cold war against USSR/communism.

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The sun's not yellow, it's chicken.

You know what clears up these types of disputes? Civil War. Nothing like having your forefathers fight a civil war that terrorized a nation of believers in one way, or another.

 

Death is one of those things that does not discriminate between beliefs. So the less death the better to come to a solution, the better it is ... There will be a solution ... just like to see one reached as cheaply as possible (in suffering).

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Ah, such blatant hypocrisy. Mandela and the ANC accepted support from and supported despots. Do you really want to go there, given the not so distant histories of some of the greatest democracies of our times, most notably ours?

 

Desperate times call for desperate measures. Again, I pose the question. Where is the line drawn when freedom is denied?

 

The man endured years of oppression, and more years of imprisonment, yet emerged to heal a country, reconcile with and include his oppressors in the new South Africa, and avoided the bloodbath that occurred in so many other similar situations.

 

Rev. Meshoe is an admirer of Nelson Mandela. He understands what he meant to South Africa.

 

 

As disappointed as I am in Rev. Meshoe's commentary,  I'm of the opinion that he took a similar less resistance path as Allen West and Ted Cruz did.   I have great respect for these people otherwise.  Yet,  in this case, instead of speaking the truth about Nelson Mandela like a sizeable portion of the supporters of West and Cruz,  they went with the popular opinion this time around.   The same with many other leaders who normally don't hold back their opinions,  even though they aren't popular with the masses and of course the media.  

 

Even after Mandela achieved his objectives for South Africa,  he continued to support some of the most hideous leaders on the planet.  Individuals that would kill us if given the opportunity. 

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When you are combatting a very vicious regime I think you have to go on the theory that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

 

Foreign policy isn't for the weak of heart. I'm sure you're aware of some of the real beauties the United States supported in it's cold war against USSR/communism.

 

  There are many foreign policy decisions by the United States I strongly disagree with.  Not just by the current U.S. Government.   Both major political parties in this country have had leaders that have caused substantial damage to the United States.  

 

   Yet,  a mega size difference between the U.S. Government leaders we have had compared to what has occurred around the world is as follows:   Where would most of the people in the Western World prefer to live,  in the U.S.  or in the countries/ leaders that Nelson Mandela supported?    At least for me,  the answer would be the U.S.  100 out of 100 times.   If I expressed my opinions in places like Cuba or Iran,  I wouldn't be here to talk about it soon afterwards.  

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The guy's dead.. Whether you're crying or dancing in the street, let's get over it.. 

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The guy's dead.. Whether you're crying or dancing in the street, let's get over it.. 

 

I'm done participating in this thread.  It's almost impossible to discuss this topic without violating the COC. 

 

 If those that I replied to and/ or others that disagree with me want the last word,  by all means express it in this thread.

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You know what? Despite what they guy may or might have not done, it was still a human life, that's it.. His life was no better than the little old lady's down the street who passed away from a heart attack, or the kids who died from the Sand Hook tragedy.. A life is a life..

 

Nobody is up in arms about the guy who got hit by a car by a drunk driver, or the young lady who got shot to death 6 months ago at the Boost Mobile store on Main Street.. You want to be up in arms about something? Be up in arms about those..

 

Jeez, the guy was 95 years old.. He lived a long life.. How about the Sandy Hook kids? Or the girl shot to death at the Boost Mobile store on Main???

 

Get the hell over it already.. 

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^those examples are the ones you should be honoring..

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As disappointed as I am in Rev. Meshoe's commentary,  I'm of the opinion that he took a similar less resistance path as Allen West and Ted Cruz did.   I have great respect for these people otherwise.  Yet,  in this case, instead of speaking the truth about Nelson Mandela like a sizeable portion of the supporters of West and Cruz,  they went with the popular opinion this time around.   The same with many other leaders who normally don't hold back their opinions,  even though they aren't popular with the masses and of course the media.  

 

Even after Mandela achieved his objectives for South Africa,  he continued to support some of the most hideous leaders on the planet.  Individuals that would kill us if given the opportunity. 

 

Yet,  a mega size difference between the U.S. Government leaders we have had compared to what has occurred around the world is as follows:   Where would most of the people in the Western World prefer to live,  in the U.S.  or in the countries/ leaders that Nelson Mandela supported?    At least for me,  the answer would be the U.S.  100 out of 100 times.   If I expressed my opinions in places like Cuba or Iran,  I wouldn't be here to talk about it soon afterwards.

 

Ok, so all of these people you admire because they speak the truth are suddenly not being honest in their praise of Mandela? Well, if it supports your argument, I guess anything is possible.

 

You are buying into the propaganda you read. If you research Mandela's ties to these supposed despots a little closer, both before and after apartheid, it is not exactly as black and white as you propose.

 

Regarding your last paragraph, that is a deflection. We are not talking about the difference between living in Cuba or the U.S., we are discussing actions taken by a man fighting against one of the most evil modern social systems of our lifetimes. We are talking about life in South Africa before and after apartheid.

 

Our great, freedom loving country as well as other democracies turned our back on those suffering under apartheid for decades. To whom was Mandela to turn to for help? Churchill and FDR turned to Stalin. Need I say more?

 

I know you won't respond because you're hiding behind the CoC. We aren't discussing politics, we're discussing history.

---

If something can corrupt you, you're corrupted already.
- Bob Marley


 

Ok, so all of these people you admire because they speak the truth are suddenly not being honest in their praise of Mandela? Well, if it supports your argument, I guess anything is possible.

 

You are buying into the propaganda you read. If you research Mandela's ties to these supposed despots a little closer, both before and after apartheid, it is not exactly as black and white as you propose.

 

Regarding your last paragraph, that is a deflection. We are not talking about the difference between living in Cuba or the U.S., we are discussing actions taken by a man fighting against one of the most evil modern social systems of our lifetimes. We are talking about life in South Africa before and after apartheid.

 

Our great, freedom loving country as well as other democracies turned our back on those suffering under apartheid for decades. To whom was Mandela to turn to for help? Churchill and FDR turned to Stalin. Need I say more?

 

I know you won't respond because you're hiding behind the CoC. We aren't discussing politics, we're discussing history.

 

The issue isn't him fighting, it's the ACTIONS they took. No one is supporting or suggesting the system of apartheid was acceptable. Of course it was evil and needed to be fought against. I have an issue with Mendela's communist ties, I have an issue with the acts his organization that he founded took, I have an issue with targeting civilians, I have an issue with his refusal to denounce the acts of the ANC while he was in prison.

 

As for your Churchill and FDR point what If I Told I'm not a fan of what they did either. that's a deflection on your part, people keep justifying Mendela's actions by point the actions of others. Evil is evil I don't care who did it for what reason.

 

D6 is pointing out that SOME people are taking the path of least resistance, doing the easy thing and just commenting on the good Mendela did, and he did do some good. Others are standing there ground, heck just look at the blow back me and D6 have gotten from you guys on this board, Imagine the blow back a politician would get.

 

I stand by my thoughts, Mendela isn't someone I would praise, not someone I will mourn and frankly I'm glad the worlds with out one less communist. I've said my peace don't think I'll bother to respond again.

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The issue isn't him fighting, it's the ACTIONS they took. No one is supporting or suggesting the system of apartheid was acceptable. Of course it was evil and needed to be fought against. I have an issue with Mendela's communist ties, I have an issue with the acts his organization that he founded took, I have an issue with targeting civilians, I have an issue with his refusal to denounce the acts of the ANC while he was in prison.

 

As for your Churchill and FDR point what If I Told I'm not a fan of what they did either. that's a deflection on your part, people keep justifying Mendela's actions by point the actions of others. Evil is evil I don't care who did it for what reason.

 

D6 is pointing out that SOME people are taking the path of least resistance, doing the easy thing and just commenting on the good Mendela did, and he did do some good. Others are standing there ground, heck just look at the blow back me and D6 have gotten from you guys on this board, Imagine the blow back a politician would get.

 

I stand by my thoughts, Mendela isn't someone I would praise, not someone I will mourn and frankly I'm glad the worlds with out one less communist. I've said my peace don't think I'll bother to respond again.

 

It is really pointless discussing this with you, not because I can't change your mind, but instead because you are so misinformed and refuse to acknowledge facts.

 

Mandela did not found the ANC, nor was he its leader. Maybe you are referring to Umkhonto we Sizwe, the military arm of the ANC, which Mandela co-found in response to a South African police action against civilian demonstrators.

 

He was not convicted, nor did he plead guilty to, 156 acts of terrorism against civilians. That is a lie posted all over the internet, and also copied and pasted here by you.

 

He plead not guilty to four charges against him, which included acts of sabotage against military and logistical targets, specifically to avoid civilian casualties. About 20 years later the ANC increasingly targeted civilians, yet with no supporting evidence you posted previously that Mandela was responsible for these attacks. Now you criticize him for not denouncing them, an act that would play right into the hands of the regime to which he opposed.

 

Finally, after a life of repression and imprisonment, he forgave his oppressors, then included them in the democratic government he helped establish then lead. All without a bloodbath.

 

If you overlook that remarkable achievement because he refuses to turn his back on the few world leaders who supported his just cause when times were bad then, yeah, we aren't thinking on the same plane and probably have nothing to discuss.

---

If something can corrupt you, you're corrupted already.
- Bob Marley


 

I kind of look at it like this ... to mourn or not to mourn. :blink:
 
Hitler (Not)
Qadhafi (Not)
Saddam (Not)
Mandela (Yes)
Pol Pot (Not)
Bin Laden (Party)
Castro (Not Yet)
 
Which leader in USA history would you consider the worst of the lot? Not limited to Presidents.
 
Dang, I had a point, and then lost it. ... You will experience it when you age, as well. ... It was a really good point, too.

---

 

<div>I kind of look at it like this ... to mourn or not to mourn. :blink:
 
Hitler (Not)
Qadhafi (Not)
Saddam (Not)
Mandela (Yes)
Pol Pot (Not)
Bin Laden (Party)
Castro (Not Yet)
 
Which leader in USA history would you consider the worst of the lot? Not limited to Presidents.
 
Dang, I had a point, and then lost it. ... You will experience it when you age, as well. ... It was a really good point, too.
 

</div>

 

William Henry Harrison. Takes office only to die a month later. Accomplished nothing but giving the longest inaugural address in American history in cold and wet conditions without even wearing a coat just to show that he was a "tough guy".

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