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mattsurf1700 · 10-31-2013, 05:17 PM

· OLB - Letting Daryl Smith walk, signed to
Ravens
for up to $2.125 million for 1 year (replaced with
Geno Hayes
, $2 million for 2 years)
· DT - Letting Terrance Knighton walk, signed to
Broncos
for up to $4.5 million for 2 years (replaced with
Roy Miller
, $4.5 million for 2 years)
· CB - Letting Derek Cox walk, signed to
Chargers
for $20 million for 4 years (replaced with
Alan Ball
. $2 million for 2 years)
· FB - Letting Greg Jones walk, signed to Texans for $1 million for 1 year (replaced with Will Ta'ufo'ou, $870k for 2 years)
· OT - Trading Eugene Monroe (replaced with
Austin Pasztor
)
· SS - Releasing Dawan Landry (replaced with Jonathan Cyprien

)
· FS - Releasing Dwight Lowery (replaced with Josh Evans)

So far not a single one of those players that he let go has been replaced with a player who is better at the position he plays. Some of them are actually significantly worse. Now obviously the two safeties were let go because they feel like Jon and Josh are going to be the long term fixtures at the position and that's completely fine, and even Pasztor has looked surprisingly competent at RT so I can deal with that, but Ball, Hayes, Ta'ufo'ou, and Miller are just stop gaps, so why even let the other players go? I understand money is an issue, but when you look at the contracts only letting Derek Cox go saved us anything, and he is a significantly better corner than Alan Ball. Obviously we lucked out with getting Will Blackmon so that won't turn out to be a huge loss over all, but no one here could argue that Geno is better than Daryl (though he is younger and there was a shot that he could be a long term fixture, but really it would not have hurt us to keep Daryl for this one more year and provide ourselves with solid play at OLB). Furthermore, Ta'ufo,ou is an obvious step down from Jones as a FB, and Miller is not as competent as Knighton at DT.

Based off of his decisions so far, Caldwell has opened holes at the DT, FB, and OLB spots, with DT being the most serious of the three. Geno could still possibly work out at OLB, though I doubt he would ever be as good as Smith and so I hesitate to say he is a long term fixture. Will Ta'ufo'ou is definitely not a long term player on our team, nor is Roy Miller. CB is not a problem due to the emergence of Will Blackmon, but if Alan Ball had been our only corner besides Gratz I would have thought more help would be needed at CB. Both safety positions I will give him the benefit of the doubt on, as it is too early to make judgments on Cyprien and Evans. Tackle could end up working out because of how well Pasztor has been playing in relief. I will not criticize the majority of the decisions, as the CB call saved us a lot of money and he managed to snag Will Blackmon (and great GMs find players where the find them), and the tackle decision is appearing to solve itself as well. I would say that he has not seriously hurt the team in the long term, as really Knighton was the only player let go who could have contributed in the future, but he has made this season more difficult in terms of letting go two stop-gap players that could have acted as band aids to support our LB corps and our run game.

In conclusion, this upcoming offseason we have a long list of positions that need to be address (in order of importance): QB, DE, OG/C, DT, FB, LB, and RB. Our team is so low on talent that means that he will need to hit on almost every draft pick this year to fill so many positions, and he will still have to go to free agency for band aid players. If he hadn't let Knighton, Smith, and Jones go last year, at least three of those positions could still be covered, leaving us fewer holes to fill and a great chance of hitting on players. So here’s hoping we hit on all of our draft picks next year, because we sorely need to!

mattsurf1700 · 10-31-2013, 05:21 PM

Further breakdown:



1. Roy Miller has 12 tackles, 0 sacks, 0 forced fumbles. Terrance Knighton has 12 tackles, 2 sacks, and 0 forced fumbles. Therefore Terrance Knighton is better than Roy Miller, even if we look only at stats. If you look at actual game film the difference is even more pronounced. Denver is quite pleased to have Knighton, who they think they got a deal on and who is very solid for them, and we have Miller, who is almost completely invisible. Yet, they get paid the same amount, for a deal of the same duration. Hmmmm…. Also nowhere on here did I compare Knighton to Marks. I think Marks was a good signing. What I am saying is that is we had signed Marks and Knighton instead of Marks and Miller, our defense would be better off.



2. I think that letting Cox walk was the move I agree with the most, because of Blackmon’s solid play and how much money it saved us.



3. Smith was coming off a major injury and is old, but it was not an injury that was considered career threatening, and even after the injury when he came back he had not showed major signs of slowing down. Those arguments could have been valid had he wanted a huge money deal, but he signed with the Ravens for next to nothing. Sure we signed Geno for half the money, and he is younger, but if you want to look at just stats again Smith has 62 tackles, 1.5 sacks, 1 forced fumble, and 2 interceptions. Hayes has 48 tackles, 0 sacks, 0 forced fumbles, and 0 interceptions…. How does that merit not resigning Smith again? Plus, in the best case scenario, they could have signed Hayes and Smith, then had Hayes and Allen compete for the third lineback spot, and had a solid back up left over for depth. On top of that the leadership he brings to defense is almost worth it on its own.



4. FB is not a useless position like some people think it is. FBs are necessary to help in pass protection, which our team desperately needs, and to help open lanes for our runners, again something we desperately need. Jones was old, but he was experienced and still one of the best FBs in the NFL. Mojo needed all the help he could get this year with our interior offensive line situation the way it is, and our QBs needed the extra protection as well. Instead we let him walk, and now both of those things are a huge issue. Stats don’t come close to telling the story for a FB, so to try and compare the two based on that alone is ludicrous. I am not saying Ta’ufo’ou is a bad FB, I think he is generally solid, but Greg Jones was one of the best, and our team is sorely missing him now. I have no quantifiable evidence to support this, because there are no stats that say how many times a FB was the lead blocker and open a lane, or how many times the FB picked up a free blitzer or man who got past the O-line to prevent a sack. But again, because of how little a difference there is in each players contract, it doesn't make sense to part ways with the better player and sign a patch player who is worse, simply because of age.



So overall, I would not say that I am mad about any of the things that Caldwell did. If you had read what I said above, you would see I was simply breaking down the differences between what we let go, and what we brought in. With the exception of the Cox deal, almost none of the changes saved us a massive amount of money. He didn’t create more depth at all, he simply cut off old bandages and put on new, slightly worse bandages because they were just a bit cheaper.



If you really wanted to contest what I was saying, you could say that the players used to replace Smith and Jones were much younger, but Ta’ufo’ou probably won’t be here within a year anyways, and Geno might be relegated to a back up role if another young linebacker steps up, as he has not shown himself to be a building block for the future, which is the only defense for going with youth over age, thus making this a wasted year with him starting instead of Smith. I never knocked the Geno signing, I thought it was a generally good idea, but if you had kept Smith and signed Hayes, we could have been in a much better situation than we are now. Hayes/Allen, [BLEEP], and Smith as a linebacking corp would be a lot better than what we have now, and we could still have let go of Smith at the end of this year and been none the worse for it.

EricC85 · 10-31-2013, 05:29 PM

Pretty much a summary of what many have been saying. The moves made where lateral at best, backwards in some positions, if we can leap forward next offseason no harm no foul.

However going backwards from LAST year is going to make it difficult and require an almost perfect offseason and draft to show improvement.

My biggest gripe has and still remains this simple fact, coming into this rebuild we had immediate needs at the following positions:

QB, OG, C, DE, CB, RT

After year 1 of this rebuild we now have immediate needs at;

QB, OG, C, DE, RT, OLB, RB, TE, FB

so basically we took care of the CB position (assuming Gratz develops and Blackmon sticks around) but created holes at OLB and FB while we naturally had needs develop at RB and TE.

RicoTx · 10-31-2013, 05:30 PM

Holy jumble. My eyes!!!!!!!!

***FBT*** · 10-31-2013, 05:50 PM

Jagsbch is back.

Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

***FBT*** · 10-31-2013, 05:55 PM

Quote:· OLB - Letting Daryl Smith walk, signed to
Ravens
for up to $2.125 million for 1 year (replaced with
Geno Hayes
, $2 million for 2 years)

· DT - Letting Terrance Knighton walk, signed to
Broncos
for up to $4.5 million for 2 years (replaced with
Roy Miller
, $4.5 million for 2 years)

· CB - Letting Derek Cox walk, signed to
Chargers
for $20 million for 4 years (replaced with
Alan Ball
. $2 million for 2 years)

· FB - Letting Greg Jones walk, signed to
Texans
for $1 million for 1 year (replaced with
Will Ta'ufo'ou
, $870k for 2 years)

· OT - Trading Eugene Monroe (replaced with
Austin Pasztor
)

· SS - Releasing Dawan Landry (replaced with Jonathan Cyprien)

· FS - Releasing Dwight Lowery (replaced with
Josh Evans
)

So far not a single one of those players that he let go has been replaced with a player who is better at the position he plays. Some of them are actually significantly worse. Now obviously the two safeties were let go because they feel like Jon and Josh are going to be the long term fixtures at the position and that's completely fine, and even Pasztor has looked surprisingly competent at RT so I can deal with that, but Ball, Hayes, Ta'ufo'ou, and Miller are just stop gaps, so why even let the other players go? I understand money is an issue, but when you look at the contracts only letting Derek Cox go saved us anything, and he is a significantly better corner than Alan Ball. Obviously we lucked out with getting
Will Blackmon
so that won't turn out to be a huge loss over all, but no one here could argue that Geno is better than Daryl (though he is younger and there was a shot that he could be a long term fixture, but really it would not have hurt us to keep Daryl for this one more year and provide ourselves with solid play at OLB). Furthermore, Ta'ufo,ou is an obvious step down from Jones as a FB, and Miller is not as competent as Knighton at DT. Based off of his decisions so far, Caldwell has opened holes at the DT, FB, and OLB spots, with DT being the most serious of the three. Geno could still possibly work out at OLB, though I doubt he would ever be as good as Smith and so I hesitate to say he is a long term fixture. Will Ta'ufo'ou is definitely not a long term player on our team, nor is Roy Miller. CB is not a problem due to the emergence of Will Blackmon, but if Alan Ball had been our only corner besides Gratz I would have thought more help would be needed at CB. Both safety positions I will give him the benefit of the doubt on, as it is too early to make judgments on Cyprien and Evans. Tackle could end up working out because of how well Pasztor has been playing in relief. I will not criticize the majority of the decisions, as the CB call saved us a lot of money and he managed to snag Will Blackmon (and great GMs find players where the find them), and the tackle decision is appearing to solve itself as well. I would say that he has not seriously hurt the team in the long term, as really Knighton was the only player let go who could have contributed in the future, but he has made this season more difficult in terms of letting go two stop-gap players that could have acted as band aids to support our LB corps and our run game.

In conclusion, this upcoming offseason we have a long list of positions that need to be address (in order of importance): QB, DE, OG/C, DT, FB, LB, and RB. Our team is so low on talent that means that he will need to hit on almost every draft pick this year to fill so many positions, and he will still have to go to free agency for band aid players. If he hadn't let Knighton, Smith, and Jones go last year, at least three of those positions could still be covered, leaving us fewer holes to fill and a great chance of hitting on players. So here’s hoping we hit on all of our draft picks next year, because we sorely need to!

Quote:

Further breakdown:

1. Roy Miller has 12 tackles, 0 sacks, 0 forced fumbles. Terrance Knighton has 12 tackles, 2 sacks, and 0 forced fumbles. Therefore Terrance Knighton is better than Roy Miller, even if we look only at stats. If you look at actual game film the difference is even more pronounced. Denver is quite pleased to have Knighton, who they think they got a deal on and who is very solid for them, and we have Miller, who is almost completely invisible. Yet, they get paid the same amount, for a deal of the same duration. Hmmmm…. Also nowhere on here did I compare Knighton to Marks. I think Marks was a good signing. What I am saying is that is we had signed Marks and Knighton instead of Marks and Miller, our defense would be better off.

2. I think that letting Cox walk was the move I agree with the most, because of Blackmon’s solid play and how much money it saved us.

3. Smith was coming off a major injury and is old, but it was not an injury that was considered career threatening, and even after the injury when he came back he had not showed major signs of slowing down. Those arguments could have been valid had he wanted a huge money deal, but he signed with the Ravens for next to nothing. Sure we signed Geno for half the money, and he is younger, but if you want to look at just stats again Smith has 62 tackles, 1.5 sacks, 1 forced fumble, and 2 interceptions. Hayes has 48 tackles, 0 sacks, 0 forced fumbles, and 0 interceptions…. How does that merit not resigning Smith again? Plus, in the best case scenario, they could have signed Hayes and Smith, then had Hayes and Allen compete for the third lineback spot, and had a solid back up left over for depth. On top of that the leadership he brings to defense is almost worth it on its own.

4. FB is not a useless position like some people think it is. FBs are necessary to help in pass protection, which our team desperately needs, and to help open lanes for our runners, again something we desperately need. Jones was old, but he was experienced and still one of the best FBs in the NFL. Mojo needed all the help he could get this year with our interior offensive line situation the way it is, and our QBs needed the extra protection as well. Instead we let him walk, and now both of those things are a huge issue. Stats don’t come close to telling the story for a FB, so to try and compare the two based on that alone is ludicrous. I am not saying Ta’ufo’ou is a bad FB, I think he is generally solid, but Greg Jones was one of the best, and our team is sorely missing him now. I have no quantifiable evidence to support this, because there are no stats that say how many times a FB was the lead blocker and open a lane, or how many times the FB picked up a free blitzer or man who got past the O-line to prevent a sack. But again, because of how little a difference there is in each players contract, it doesn't make sense to part ways with the better player and sign a patch player who is worse, simply because of age.

So overall, I would not say that I am mad about any of the things that Caldwell did. If you had read what I said above, you would see I was simply breaking down the differences between what we let go, and what we brought in. With the exception of the Cox deal, almost none of the changes saved us a massive amount of money. He didn’t create more depth at all, he simply cut off old bandages and put on new, slightly worse bandages because they were just a bit cheaper.

If you really wanted to contest what I was saying, you could say that the players used to replace Smith and Jones were much younger, but Ta’ufo’ou probably won’t be here within a year anyways, and Geno might be relegated to a back up role if another young linebacker steps up, as he has not shown himself to be a building block for the future, which is the only defense for going with youth over age, thus making this a wasted year with him starting instead of Smith. I never knocked the Geno signing, I thought it was a generally good idea, but if you had kept Smith and signed Hayes, we could have been in a much better situation than we are now. Hayes/Allen, [BLEEP], and Smith as a linebacking corp would be a lot better than what we have now, and we could still have let go of Smith at the end of this year and been none the worse for it.

7-25

That's what all that marginal talent got us over the last 2 seasons.

The only player on that list who is having a decent year is Daryl Smith. The rest are living up to their mediocre status.

The replacements all signed short-term contracts. They weren't intended to be the long-term solution. They were simply players needed to fill the roster as the front office rebuilds. If any of these short-term fixes panned out, they'd more than likely wind up getting an extension. Otherwise, they'll wind up on another roster next year.

You spent 1000 words whining about crappy players we let go and the short-term band aids we signed to replace them. There wasn't a single player the team let go that was a devastating loss.

Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

mattsurf1700 · 10-31-2013, 07:29 PM

Quote:7-25

That's what all that marginal talent got us over the last 2 seasons.

The only player on that list who is having a decent year is Daryl Smith. The rest are living up to their mediocre status.

The replacements all signed short-term contracts. They weren't intended to be the long-term solution. They were simply players needed to fill the roster as the front office rebuilds. If any of these short-term fixes panned out, they'd more than likely wind up getting an extension. Otherwise, they'll wind up on another roster next year.

You spent 1000 words whining about crappy players we let go and the short-term band aids we signed to replace them. There wasn't a single player the team let go that was a devastating loss.

Yeah and now what Dave's moves have gotten us is 0-8. I'm complaining about the fact that the players he let go were already band aids on those spots. Why release them then sign even worse band aids?

**NYC4jags** · 10-31-2013, 07:52 PM

Quote:

4. FB is not a useless position like some people think it is. FBs are necessary to help in pass protection, which our team desperately needs, and to help open lanes for our runners, again something we desperately need. Jones was old, but he was experienced and still one of the best FBs in the NFL. Mojo needed all the help he could get this year with our interior offensive line situation the way it is, and our QBs needed the extra protection as well. Instead we let him walk, and now both of those things are a huge issue. Stats don’t come close to telling the story for a FB, so to try and compare the two based on that alone is ludicrous. I am not saying Ta’ufo’ou is a bad FB, I think he is generally solid, but Greg Jones was one of the best, and our team is sorely missing him now. I have no quantifiable evidence to support this, because there are no stats that say how many times a FB was the lead blocker and open a lane, or how many times the FB picked up a free blitzer or man who got past the O-line to prevent a sack. But again, because of how little a difference there is in each players contract, it doesn't make sense to part ways with the better player and sign a patch player who is worse, simply because of age.

- You apparently weren't aware that Greg took slightly less money to play for the Texans because he wanted a shot at the playoffs - his agent turned down better offers from the Jags.

- Most of us wanted to see Daryl Smith back - but passing on an aging LB coming off of an injury that made him miss 14 games before looking like a shell of his former self in the last two ...... perfectly understandable.

- Are we really concerned about losing Knighton? I'm not.

- We got better at Cox' position for less money.

MalabarJag · 10-31-2013, 08:25 PM

Quote:- We got better at Cox' position for less money.

Gratz is better than Cox? Hard to say when he doesn't play (which was the rap on Cox).

In any case, the money is only one half of the equation. A draft pick was used on Gratz, a pick that could no longer be used on another position.

"Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?"

TJBender · 10-31-2013, 08:30 PM

Quote:

snip

Well that was educational.

I think I can sum up your entire post in three sentences:

Caldwell has taken a very aggressive approach to rebuilding the roster. A few of the decisions look to have worked out, but many haven't. I am unhappy about this.

My response to that is similar to FBT's. The team was full of overpaid players who either hadn't worked out (Cox, Knighton) or were past their prime (D. Smith, Landry). Instead of committing lots of money to players he didn't think would be around by the time this team makes a playoff run, he chose to replace them with young guys who had a shot to be contributors down the line. Taking a long look at your list, I can honestly say that I don't see any one name that makes me go, "Wow, we'd have won two games if he was still here." I mean, fullback is high on your list of complaints. Fullback? Really? Willy T. is average. At a lot of positions, that's problematic, but for a fullback making minimum salary? As long as he can stalemate defenders long enough to buy Mojo a hole--and the line has been far worse blocking for the run than Willy T. has--he's a passable NFL fullback. I wouldn't be surprised if Caldwell goes with a more versatile fullback as early as next year, but Willy T. does well enough for now. Paying Greg Jones over three times as much wouldn't have bought us a single win.

Look at it like this: is Dawan Landry a better strong safety than John Cyprien? Right now, yes, he probably is. But Cyprien is younger, faster and much, much cheaper. Apply the same general principal to Daryl Smith. Is he a better linebacker than Geno Hayes? Yes, absolutely. But Hayes is younger, cheaper, and considerably faster than Smith ever was. Smith does not fit the team's plans long-term; Hayes might.

**NYC4jags** · 10-31-2013, 08:30 PM

Quote:Gratz is better than Cox? Hard to say when he doesn't play (which was the rap on Cox).

In any case, the money is only one half of the equation. A draft pick was used on Gratz, a pick that could no longer be used on another position.

Alan Ball is playing Cox's former side. He's playing easily better for us than Cox is currently in SD - at 35% of the salary.

mattsurf1700 · 10-31-2013, 08:57 PM

Quote:- You apparently weren't aware that Greg took slightly less money to play for the Texans because he wanted a shot at the playoffs - his agent turned down better offers from the Jags.

- Most of us wanted to see Daryl Smith back - but passing on an aging LB coming off of an injury that made him miss 14 games before looking like a shell of his former self in the last two ...... perfectly understandable.

- Are we really concerned about losing Knighton? I'm not.

- We got better at Cox' position for less money.

I didn't know that about Jones.

Smith I can understand all the negatives about him being old and injured, but it's not like he was tremendously expensive. He would have been a bargain to have at the position playing at his level, and if he doesn't work out we cut him in a year, with hardly any drawbacks. We could have signed him and Geno and still had more than enough money to do whatever we wanted this year. I am concerned that we lost Knighton when we are paying his replacement the exact same amount he gets paid to be worse than him....

Dunno about better than Cox, but I will agree his move made the most sense, as he really did get overpaid by San Diego.

mattsurf1700 · 10-31-2013, 09:02 PM

Quote:Well that was educational.

I think I can sum up your entire post in three sentences:

Caldwell has taken a very aggressive approach to rebuilding the roster. A few of the decisions look to have worked out, but many haven't. I am unhappy about this.

My response to that is similar to FBT's. The team was full of overpaid players who either hadn't worked out (Cox, Knighton) or were past their prime (D. Smith, Landry). Instead of committing lots of money to players he didn't think would be around by the time this team makes a playoff run, he chose to replace them with young guys who had a shot to be contributors down the line. Taking a long look at your list, I can honestly say that I don't see any one name that makes me go, "Wow, we'd have won two games if he was still here." I mean, fullback is high on your list of complaints. Fullback? Really? Willy T. is average. At a lot of positions, that's problematic, but for a fullback making minimum salary? As long as he can stalemate defenders long enough to buy Mojo a hole--and the line has been far worse blocking for the run than Willy T. has--he's a passable NFL fullback. I wouldn't be surprised if Caldwell goes with a more versatile fullback as early as next year, but Willy T. does well enough for now. Paying Greg Jones over three times as much wouldn't have bought us a single win.

Look at it like this: is Dawan Landry a better strong safety than John Cyprien? Right now, yes, he probably is. But Cyprien is younger, faster and much, much cheaper. Apply the same general principal to Daryl Smith. Is he a better linebacker than Geno Hayes? Yes, absolutely. But Hayes is younger, cheaper, and considerably faster than Smith ever was. Smith does not fit the team's plans long-term; Hayes might.

If you read my post fully you would see I don't have anything negative to say about any of the moves Dave has made the the safety and CB positions. I said him letting Cox walk saved us a lot of money, and Blackmon, Ball, and Gratz look to have the position stabilized. I also said I wouldn't knock him for letting Landry and Lowry go because he replaced them with up and comers in Jon and Josh. My main issue is that we let Jones, Smith, and Knighton all go places where they didn't get huge paychecks, and then we replaced them at almost the exact same cost with worse players. The whole reason to not resign them was supposed to be they were old and expensive, but the thing is we paid almost as much to sign their replacements who are still only stop gap players, and they have less talent. Jones could have been a big help in our backfield now because our QBs and RBs need all the extra blockers they can get, and an average journeyman FB isn't cutting it. WIll T, was not going to be a contributor on a playoff team, and I understand Geno could be but we could have signed him and Smith and still been fine with money. Then signing Miller for the exact same amount that Knighton got paid is just ridiculous. Knighton is better than Miller is! Why let him go then pay a worse DT the same amount of money?!

Haterade · 10-31-2013, 09:03 PM

Daryl Smith is the only one I miss, but it's doubtful he would be a piece to build around two to four seasons from now.

Jinjo · 10-31-2013, 09:05 PM

Quote:Daryl Smith is the only one I miss, but it's doubtful he would be a piece to build around two to four seasons from now.

He wouldnt be, which is why he wasnt retained but everyone fails to understand this.

mattsurf1700 · 10-31-2013, 09:16 PM

Quote:He wouldnt be, which is why he wasnt retained but everyone fails to understand this.

So obviously Geno Hayes is a piece we are going to build around for two to four season?

Haterade · 10-31-2013, 09:20 PM

Quote:So obviously Geno Hayes is a piece we are going to build around for two to four season?

Can't hit the ball if you don't swing. Keep swinging

**NYC4jags** · 10-31-2013, 09:21 PM

Quote:So obviously Geno Hayes is a piece we are going to build around for two to four season?

LOL. You can't just run out and pick a younger Daryl Smith off of the linebacker tree.

mattsurf1700 · 10-31-2013, 09:27 PM

Quote:LOL. You can't just run out and pick a younger Daryl Smith off of the linebacker tree.

I know! That's why I saying they should have signed Geno and Daryl, both to short term cheap deals! Are yall not getting this? He didn't cost a lot of money, and it's a short term deal! We all knew he wasn't gonna be here much longer! I don't hate that they signed Geno, I still think he might turn out alright. It bums me out they let Daryl go when they could have had him on a cheap short term deal.

EricC85 · 10-31-2013, 09:29 PM

Quote:He wouldnt be, which is why he wasnt retained but everyone fails to understand this.

No one's failing to understand the logic, plenty are disagreeing with the method.