I missed that.

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So anything other than a 3-4 WR set will guarantee an 8th guy in the box?

That's not good at all.

If we lined up in 21 (2 RBs 1 TE), we need to be good enough at WR to keep that 8th guy out of the box.

If we lined up in 12 (1 RB-2TE), even though that is a predominantly run look, we still need to be good enough at WR to keep that 8th guy out of the box, some of the time.

Even with a good receiver most teams will play an 8 man box Vs those formations.  

What may help us out a lot is having two TEs who can create mismatches in the pass game and hurt teams from those formations. Also having a true pass catching H-Back type who can block a little would allow us to manipulate the defense how we see fit.

Not always.  Depending on down, distance and matchups, they may or may not.

I think back to the 1990s Dallas teams, when they lined up in 21, they killed teams passing the ball when defenses put 8 in the box to stop Emmitt Smith.

I think back to the Manning era Colts teams that would line up in 12 personnel that would defy teams to line up 8 in the box.

Of course, now I realize I'm talking about teams with all time great QBs and WRs.

I do think your two TE formation with Ys that can actually create mismatches by winning their pass routes would help some.

But it goes back to a thread I made a few months back about getting that extra half yard. Either we have to draft OLs that are so dominant in run blocking, it won't matter if teams put an 8th guy in the box, or get guys that can win in the passing game so often that teams are forced to keep that 8th man out of the box on occasion.

Of that second option, I think a guy who can get behind a defense on a regular basis is the best option.  That is usually done by a WR.

Chark consistently gets behind defenses.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Even with a good receiver most teams will play an 8 man box Vs those formations.  

What may help us out a lot is having two TEs who can create mismatches in the pass game and hurt teams from those formations. Also having a true pass catching H-Back type who can block a little would allow us to manipulate the defense how we see fit.

Not always.  Depending on down, distance and matchups, they may or may not.

I think back to the 1990s Dallas teams, when they lined up in 21, they killed teams passing the ball when defenses put 8 in the box to stop Emmitt Smith.

I think back to the Manning era Colts teams that would line up in 12 personnel that would defy teams to line up 8 in the box.

Of course, now I realize I'm talking about teams with all time great QBs and WRs.

I do think your two TE formation with Ys that can actually create mismatches by winning their pass routes would help some.

But it goes back to a thread I made a few months back about getting that extra half yard. Either we have to draft OLs that are so dominant in run blocking, it won't matter if teams put an 8th guy in the box, or get guys that can win in the passing game so often that teams are forced to keep that 8th man out of the box on occasion.

Of that second option, I think a guy who can get behind a defense on a regular basis is the best option.  That is usually done by a WR.

Chark consistently gets behind defenses.

Most of the time. I know Dick Le Beau always had some weird formations and set ups Vs heavy boxes with his 3-4.  

Agree. Every running game YPC goes down Vs heavy boxes so the key is to have a line that will at least "keep us on track" and covert those tough 2-3 yards. Last year we managed to do that very effectively despite poor guard play. 

This year we have to be able to say : We will keep grinding out Vs those 8 men boxes or we are gonna exploit you with our deep threats and TEs. Pick your poison.  

Chark could be that guy. Not a big fan of him overall but yeah he'd be that guy to scare teams with his speed.

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Not always.  Depending on down, distance and matchups, they may or may not.

I think back to the 1990s Dallas teams, when they lined up in 21, they killed teams passing the ball when defenses put 8 in the box to stop Emmitt Smith.

I think back to the Manning era Colts teams that would line up in 12 personnel that would defy teams to line up 8 in the box.

Of course, now I realize I'm talking about teams with all time great QBs and WRs.

I do think your two TE formation with Ys that can actually create mismatches by winning their pass routes would help some.

But it goes back to a thread I made a few months back about getting that extra half yard. Either we have to draft OLs that are so dominant in run blocking, it won't matter if teams put an 8th guy in the box, or get guys that can win in the passing game so often that teams are forced to keep that 8th man out of the box on occasion.

Of that second option, I think a guy who can get behind a defense on a regular basis is the best option.  That is usually done by a WR.

Chark consistently gets behind defenses.

Most of the time. I know Dick Le Beau always had some weird formations and set ups Vs heavy boxes with his 3-4.  

Agree. Every running game YPC goes down Vs heavy boxes so the key is to have a line that will at least "keep us on track" and covert those tough 2-3 yards. Last year we managed to do that very effectively despite poor guard play. 

This year we have to be able to say : We will keep grinding out Vs those 8 men boxes or we are gonna exploit you with our deep threats and TEs. Pick your poison.  

Chark could be that guy. Not a big fan of him overall but yeah he'd be that guy to scare teams with his speed.

Now do I think Chark is Julio Jones?  No.

He's not the dominant, T.O. type who can beat a CB with power, speed, and route running.

I see him more as a cross between James Lofton (build wise) and Willie Gault style wise-not too much of a route runner...just on fly routes outside.

But I think what he might bring to us would be enough to make a difference.  I don't see him as a likely pick for this team, so much of this discussion is moot.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

That's all Chark has is speed. He cannot run routes and cannot catch. Drafting a track star in the 1st round is awful. Is Al Davis back from the dead?

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That's all Chark has is speed.  He cannot run routes and cannot catch. Drafting a track star in the 1st round is awful. Is Al Davis back from the dead?

Knock him all you like.

Al Davis won three Super Bowls as Raiders owner, and went to two others.  At one point, the Raiders were one of the most successful teams in the league.

I'd love to get those results here.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

That's all Chark has is speed.  He cannot run routes and cannot catch. Drafting a track star in the 1st round is awful. Is Al Davis back from the dead?

Knock him all you like.

Al Davis won three Super Bowls as Raiders owner, and went to two others.  At one point, the Raiders were one of the most successful teams in the league.

I'd love to get those results here.

That's 1970s Al Davis.  You can't justify guys like DHB in the first round.

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Knock him all you like.

Al Davis won three Super Bowls as Raiders owner, and went to two others.  At one point, the Raiders were one of the most successful teams in the league.

I'd love to get those results here.

That's 1970s Al Davis.  You can't justify guys like DHB in the first round.

1.  Al Davis's Raiders went to the Super Bowl as recently as the 2002 season and won two of their three Super Bowls in the 1980s, not 1970s.    Even though that last Super Bowl appearance is now 15 years ago, it is still quite an accomplishment.  Doing it our way has yet to yield even that.

2.  Even the very best franchises draft busts.  It is inevitable.  Name the team, you can name the bust.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

https://www.bigcatcountry.com/2018/4/17/...le-jaguars

Questionable list. I remember Lamar Jackson himself saying he met with the Jags at the combine.

Also, I've tried using these lists to project who will take who, and what I came away with is that they're really deceptive. Most of the time they're talking to the players they need to know more about because of red flags. What I learned is that these lists are almost irrelevant because teams throughout the draft are often taking players that are never on any such list. 

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'02

That's 1970s Al Davis.  You can't justify guys like DHB in the first round.

1.  Al Davis's Raiders went to the Super Bowl as recently as the 2002 season and won two of their three Super Bowls in the 1980s, not 1970s.    Even though that last Super Bowl appearance is now 15 years ago, it is still quite an accomplishment.  Doing it our way has yet to yield even that.

2.  Even the very best franchises draft busts.  It is inevitable.  Name the team, you can name the bust.

He averaged something like 22 yards per catch. If he can do that in the NFL that woudl be crazy.

Here's one of this game films to help get a read on DJ Chark...

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LFEZC3ELt8

This is a good one to see the good and the bad.

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'02

1.  Al Davis's Raiders went to the Super Bowl as recently as the 2002 season and won two of their three Super Bowls in the 1980s, not 1970s.    Even though that last Super Bowl appearance is now 15 years ago, it is still quite an accomplishment.  Doing it our way has yet to yield even that.

2.  Even the very best franchises draft busts.  It is inevitable.  Name the team, you can name the bust.

He averaged something like 22 yards per catch. If he can do that in the NFL that woudl be crazy.

Here's one of this game films to help get a read on DJ Chark...

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LFEZC3ELt8

This is a good one to see the good and the bad.

That first pass should've been a touchdown if he hadn't had to come back to the football due to a bad pass. If the QB would've hit him in stride, there wouldn't have been a defender able to touch him, thereby nullifying the fumble. The Tigers were plagued by bad QB play.

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John Ross with good knees = DJ Chark.....think Ross was the 9th pick last year and had 8 yards. Ya go speed

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That's 1970s Al Davis.  You can't justify guys like DHB in the first round.

1.  Al Davis's Raiders went to the Super Bowl as recently as the 2002 season and won two of their three Super Bowls in the 1980s, not 1970s.    Even though that last Super Bowl appearance is now 15 years ago, it is still quite an accomplishment.  Doing it our way has yet to yield even that.

2.  Even the very best franchises draft busts.  It is inevitable.  Name the team, you can name the bust.

That's because he was letting others do draft picks for the prior years when Gruden was there.  You can't tell me when Al Davis was meddling with draft picks, that they were doing a good job picking.  I'm not just saying DHB was the only bust, they were a mess for a long time after Gruden left.

Regardless, I think we're getting off track.  My point was Chark is being touted as a first round pick because he's tall and fast.  That's the silliest reason ever to take someone in the first round.  Those are guys you take fliers on day 3 to try and develop them.

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1.  Al Davis's Raiders went to the Super Bowl as recently as the 2002 season and won two of their three Super Bowls in the 1980s, not 1970s.    Even though that last Super Bowl appearance is now 15 years ago, it is still quite an accomplishment.  Doing it our way has yet to yield even that.

2.  Even the very best franchises draft busts.  It is inevitable.  Name the team, you can name the bust.

He averaged something like 22 yards per catch. If he can do that in the NFL that woudl be crazy.

Here's one of this game films to help get a read on DJ Chark...

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LFEZC3ELt8

This is a good one to see the good and the bad.

The guy has no hands and those DBs were awful.  Good luck relying on athleticism to get open in the NFL.

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John Ross with good knees = DJ Chark.....think Ross was the 9th pick last year and had 8 yards. Ya go speed

Ross could catch and was a legit red zone threat in college.  Chark was non-existent in the red zone. So it's even worse than that.

---

1.  Al Davis's Raiders went to the Super Bowl as recently as the 2002 season and won two of their three Super Bowls in the 1980s, not 1970s.    Even though that last Super Bowl appearance is now 15 years ago, it is still quite an accomplishment.  Doing it our way has yet to yield even that.

2.  Even the very best franchises draft busts.  It is inevitable.  Name the team, you can name the bust.

That's because he was letting others do draft picks for the prior years when Gruden was there.  You can't tell me when Al Davis was meddling with draft picks, that they were doing a good job picking.  I'm not just saying DHB was the only bust, they were a mess for a long time after Gruden left.

Regardless, I think we're getting off track.  My point was Chark is being touted as a first round pick because he's tall and fast.  That's the silliest reason ever to take someone in the first round.  Those are guys you take fliers on day 3 to try and develop them.

---

He averaged something like 22 yards per catch. If he can do that in the NFL that woudl be crazy.

Here's one of this game films to help get a read on DJ Chark...

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LFEZC3ELt8

This is a good one to see the good and the bad.

The guy has no hands and those DBs were awful.  Good luck relying on athleticism to get open in the NFL.

He does have good hands an do you realize one of those DB's was Carlton Davis of Auburn, a fringe first round CB.

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I would rather have the WR from Penn than DJ Chark, he actually produced and tested better athletically. Never get why guys fall in love with speed and then other guys who run the same time at small schools get no appreciation.

---

That's because he was letting others do draft picks for the prior years when Gruden was there.  You can't tell me when Al Davis was meddling with draft picks, that they were doing a good job picking.  I'm not just saying DHB was the only bust, they were a mess for a long time after Gruden left.

Regardless, I think we're getting off track.  My point was Chark is being touted as a first round pick because he's tall and fast.  That's the silliest reason ever to take someone in the first round.  Those are guys you take fliers on day 3 to try and develop them.

---

The guy has no hands and those DBs were awful.  Good luck relying on athleticism to get open in the NFL.

He does have good hands an do you realize one of those DB's was Carlton Davis of Auburn, a fringe first round CB.

He was juggling the ball a lot and even fumbled because he couldn't hold onto the ball.  The DB that was playing him on those short comeback routes that tackled him quickly wasn't playing bad, but those big plays there was no one around him or they made a dumb error.

His route running is bad too.  He's just all theoretical potential with his combine stats and size.  He's like the Josh Allen of wide receivers.

---

I would rather have the WR from Penn than DJ Chark, he actually produced and tested better athletically. Never get why guys fall in love with speed and then other guys who run the same time at small schools get no appreciation.

How did he test better? Chark had a better 40 time, a longer broad jump and a much higher vertical. Hamilton is the much better route runner and is suited to the slot, but Chark appears to be more of a big play receiver.

---

He does have good hands an do you realize one of those DB's was Carlton Davis of Auburn, a fringe first round CB.

He was juggling the ball a lot and even fumbled because he couldn't hold onto the ball.  The DB that was playing him on those short comeback routes that tackled him quickly wasn't playing bad, but those big plays there was no one around him or they made a dumb error.

His route running is bad too.  He's just all theoretical potential with his combine stats and size.  He's like the Josh Allen of wide receivers.

You put that kid with a reliable QB and he has the potential to be the next Julio Jones.

---

I would rather have the WR from Penn than DJ Chark, he actually produced and tested better athletically. Never get why guys fall in love with speed and then other guys who run the same time at small schools get no appreciation.

How did he test better? Chark had a better 40 time, a longer broad jump and a much higher vertical. Hamilton is the much better route runner and is suited to the slot, but Chark appears to be more of a big play receiver.

---

He was juggling the ball a lot and even fumbled because he couldn't hold onto the ball.  The DB that was playing him on those short comeback routes that tackled him quickly wasn't playing bad, but those big plays there was no one around him or they made a dumb error.

His route running is bad too.  He's just all theoretical potential with his combine stats and size.  He's like the Josh Allen of wide receivers.

You put that kid with a reliable QB and he has the potential to be the next Julio Jones.

I won't go THAT far, but I will say if you put him with a reliable QB, he'd be a receiver that could take the top off of a defense and make defenses respect the deep pass, which is what you want with a running team.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Oline, not Penn State..just Penn


http://www.thedp.com/article/2018/03/pen...peed-draft

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I would rather have the WR from Penn than DJ Chark, he actually produced and tested better athletically. Never get why guys fall in love with speed and then other guys who run the same time at small schools get no appreciation.

How did he test better? Chark had a better 40 time, a longer broad jump and a much higher vertical. Hamilton is the much better route runner and is suited to the slot, but Chark appears to be more of a big play receiver.

---

He was juggling the ball a lot and even fumbled because he couldn't hold onto the ball.  The DB that was playing him on those short comeback routes that tackled him quickly wasn't playing bad, but those big plays there was no one around him or they made a dumb error.

His route running is bad too.  He's just all theoretical potential with his combine stats and size.  He's like the Josh Allen of wide receivers.

You put that kid with a reliable QB and he has the potential to be the next Julio Jones.

Sheesh, this hype is getting out of control.  Julio Jones, cmon.  He's nowhere near Julio was as a prospect.

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