In 2016 and 2017 Telvin was legit great, we just haven't seen Jack hit that territory yet so don't want to prematurely lock him in to being it, even if he has the talent. I am worried that a massive drop off like Telvins is hard to come back fully from.

You are overstating Telvin's struggles. So much of it is easily identified as mental lapses. It's not like he took an athletic step backward. He also played through injury in November and December last year, so he was in fact not athletically 100% much of the time. 

I think folks need to slow their roll with the "Telvin was terrible" narrative. 

He had a down year and played more undisciplined football than he did in 2017. It's absolutely fixable.

It's more worrying that the lapses are from getting toyed with by offenses than some physical ailment + his tackle technique was bottom tier (not that it's been a strong point for him).  He was legitimately terrible in 2018.

I don't think he turned into a bad player overnight but he wouldn't be the first nor the last player to drop off like that and not get back to the level they were at for a variety of reasons. He'll definitely play better than last year , just to what degree it's hard to say

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You are overstating Telvin's struggles. So much of it is easily identified as mental lapses. It's not like he took an athletic step backward. He also played through injury in November and December last year, so he was in fact not athletically 100% much of the time. 

I think folks need to slow their roll with the "Telvin was terrible" narrative. 

He had a down year and played more undisciplined football than he did in 2017. It's absolutely fixable.

It's more worrying that the lapses are from getting toyed with by offenses than some physical ailment + his tackle technique was bottom tier (not that it's been a strong point for him).  He was legitimately terrible in 2018.

I don't think he turned into a bad player overnight but he wouldn't be the first nor the last player to drop off like that and not get back to the level they were at for a variety of reasons. He'll definitely play better than last year , just to what degree it's hard to say

Laughable. 

Your generation struggles with hyperbole.

You've gotta' take the good with the bad. Balance it out and he was mid tier. Not terrible.

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Jack was better than Telvin last year too

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Yeah, if he rebounds would be best case scenario.  Same with Ramsey, Bouye, Cam, LF, and norwell

In 2016 and 2017 Telvin was legit great, we just haven't seen Jack hit that territory yet so don't want to prematurely lock him in to being it, even if he has the talent. I am worried that a massive drop off like Telvins is hard to come back fully from.

What do you think of Devin White at 7?

Mid-season, I remember watching him seemingly lolly-gagging around like he was waiting for someone else to make a hit...  It was really disturbing.  He played much better later in the season though.
I read somewhere later that he was playing through a shoulder injury.  Hopefully that's all it was, and hopefully someone has enough sense to get him off the field if he's going through something like that again.

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Laughable. 

Your generation struggles with hyperbole.

You've gotta' take the good with the bad. Balance it out and he was mid tier. Not terrible.

Wasn't someone passing around the stat early in the offseason that Telvin was last in the league in both missed tackles and passing yards allowed for a linebacker?

He got progressively better every year until last year, but I don't think that saying he took a huge step back is a mischaracterization.

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Laughable. 

Your generation struggles with hyperbole.

You've gotta' take the good with the bad. Balance it out and he was mid tier. Not terrible.

Wasn't someone passing around the stat early in the offseason that Telvin was last in the league in both missed tackles and passing yards allowed for a linebacker?

He got progressively better every year until last year, but I don't think that saying he took a huge step back is a mischaracterization.

We all know tackle stats don't tell the story on linebackers - as you and others loved to point out when Poz was lauded for the stat. His coverage was bad, and much of that was as I described. Mental lapses which are correctable. He allowed motion and/or run fakes to move him out of his spot or responsibility too often. That's something he's previously improved upon. 

Telvin took a big step back, but on the whole, characterizing his 2018 as "legitimately terrible" is a joke. 
His good play weighed against his bad does not equate to that. I can understand his moments of "downright ugly" leaving a bad taste in a fan's mouth, but I'm merely seeking to dispel what I see as gross hyperbole.

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I think Telvin had a bad case of trying to do too much last year. Seems like it led to him being out of position often. Makes sense in the context of him trying to justify his contract and being without [BLEEP] he probably sees the defense as his for the first time.

I think far more troubling was his attitude towards his unsportsmanlike conduct penalties.

I'm not ready to write him off yet all though I think Jack would benefit from playing Will. I can forsee a scenario down the road where we move on from Telvin and draft a true Mike.

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I think Telvin had a bad case of trying to do too much last year. Seems like it led to him being out of position often. Makes sense in the context of him trying to justify his contract and being without [BLEEP] he probably sees the defense as his for the first time.

I think far more troubling was his attitude towards his unsportsmanlike conduct penalties.

I'm not ready to write him off yet all though I think Jack would benefit from playing Will. I can forsee a scenario down the road where we move on from Telvin and draft a true Mike.

I agree on all points. 

It won't be this year  - but I think unless Jacks lights it up at the mike spot this year  -  sliding him to will and drafting a prototypical MLB that can play the run a bit better but still cover well enough is the eventual move. 

Telvin's dead money drops from 13M in 2019 to 5.6M in 2020. 

Wouldn't shock me to see both Jack and Telvin play well enough to make them wait till 2021 to make moves, but I'd not be surprised to see a shift in 2020 if one or both struggles enough to justify it.

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I still think Caldwell has worn out his welcome.  Maybe not within the building, he obviously has support, but with his performance.

Maybe they feel he's still green and are trying to polish out the blemishes.  His mistakes have cut deep enough to undermine the good he's brought.  Somehow he was able to make Blake his fall guy, who really was the ship he should have gone down with.

Made him the fall guy by giving him a contract extension?  How in the world did he make him the fall guy?

By letting him go with zero repercussions of his own.  Blake was his guy, his signature pick and cornerstone of the franchise.

Blake's failure was Dave's failure.

Baffling why the obvious must be explained, but... here we are.

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"You do your own thing in your own time. You should be proud."

Made him the fall guy by giving him a contract extension?  How in the world did he make him the fall guy?

By letting him go with zero repercussions of his own.  Blake was his guy, his signature pick and cornerstone of the franchise.

Blake's failure was Dave's failure.

Baffling why the obvious must be explained, but... here we are.

Coughlin is just as much (if not more) to blame for that extension of Blake... For all we know, he's the one who was pounding the table for him to be extended... So what are you on about?

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Made him the fall guy by giving him a contract extension?  How in the world did he make him the fall guy?

By letting him go with zero repercussions of his own.  Blake was his guy, his signature pick and cornerstone of the franchise.

Blake's failure was Dave's failure.

Baffling why the obvious must be explained, but... here we are.

Signature pick?  I don't know about that.  The team desperately needed a QB and Dave picked one early. Like tons of GMs would have. Turned out to be the wrong player choice.  How is that a signature pick? He swung and missed on a QB like most GMs do at some point. 
What is so singular about that pick? 

Giving that QB an extension that proved to be entirely too optimistic -  and then regrettably releasing said QB at a major loss doesn't spell fall guy to me.  It says "really bad extension decision."
Dave isn't in control of what repercussions come his way, he merely has to make the moves he and Coughlin feel are going to make the team competitive. I mean, the coaches made Bortles a healthy scratch at one point last year. Were they supposed to keep him after that? Was TC supposed to fire Dave and keep Bortles?

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It's more worrying that the lapses are from getting toyed with by offenses than some physical ailment + his tackle technique was bottom tier (not that it's been a strong point for him).  He was legitimately terrible in 2018.

I don't think he turned into a bad player overnight but he wouldn't be the first nor the last player to drop off like that and not get back to the level they were at for a variety of reasons. He'll definitely play better than last year , just to what degree it's hard to say

Laughable. 

Your generation struggles with hyperbole.

You've gotta' take the good with the bad. Balance it out and he was mid tier. Not terrible.

Well put it this way, out of all the things a modern NFL LB is expected to do game to game which did Telvin do at even an average level over the course of the year? I.e run fits, tackling, getting off blocks, pass coverage: man and zone

Bar Church he was the worst player on the starting defense last year

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By letting him go with zero repercussions of his own.  Blake was his guy, his signature pick and cornerstone of the franchise.

Blake's failure was Dave's failure.

Baffling why the obvious must be explained, but... here we are.

Signature pick?  I don't know about that.  The team desperately needed a QB and Dave picked one early. Like tons of GMs would have. Turned out to be the wrong player choice.  How is that a signature pick? He swung and missed on a QB like most GMs do at some point. 
What is so singular about that pick? 

Giving that QB an extension that proved to be entirely too optimistic -  and then regrettably releasing said QB at a major loss doesn't spell fall guy to me.  It says "really bad extension decision."
Dave isn't in control of what repercussions come his way, he merely has to make the moves he and Coughlin feel are going to make the team competitive. I mean, the coaches made Bortles a healthy scratch at one point last year. Were they supposed to keep him after that? Was TC supposed to fire Dave and keep Bortles?

For better or worse the QB you take in the first is your signature pick for the vast majority of GMs , especially when it's that high. It's the 2nd most important decision they make

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Laughable. 

Your generation struggles with hyperbole.

You've gotta' take the good with the bad. Balance it out and he was mid tier. Not terrible.

Well put it this way, out of all the things a modern NFL LB is expected to do game to game which did Telvin do at even an average level over the course of the year? I.e run fits, tackling, getting off blocks, pass coverage, man and zone

The only things he was below average at when you add it all up were probably coverage and run fits. Both already explained repeatedly. I'd say he was only "below-average-to-average" in these areas overall as he had plenty of good performance in each category to go with the bad. The getting off blocks thing for the latter half of the season likely had much to do with the injury.  

His ugly stuff was ugly. But you can't ignore the good, and it all adds up to mid tier like I've already asserted. 

Just because you can recall three dozen ugly plays from the guy doesn't mean he had a terrible season. He played 1,108 snaps and you have to weigh all of them in your assessment.

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Lol, the only things he was below average at when you at it all up were probably pass defense and run defense...but he was great at...umm...the rest of the stuff that didn't involve the football being passed or ran...

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Lol, the only things he was below average at when you at it all up were probably pass defense and run defense...but he was great at...umm...the rest of the stuff that didn't involve the football being passed or ran...

Not what I said, but have at it.  

He actually overcame a number of bad run fits to make plays, and his good snaps in both categories have him mid-tier league wide for the season by my estimation. 

Clearly, at least two posters think he was worse than that. Whatever.  I trust my own judgement.  

Care to wager whether he has a better season in 2019?

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Well put it this way, out of all the things a modern NFL LB is expected to do game to game which did Telvin do at even an average level over the course of the year? I.e run fits, tackling, getting off blocks, pass coverage, man and zone

The only things he was below average at when you add it all up were probably coverage and run fits. Both already explained repeatedly. I'd say he was only "below-average-to-average" in these areas overall as he had plenty of good performance in each category to go with the bad. The getting off blocks thing for the latter half of the season likely had much to do with the injury.  

His ugly stuff was ugly. But you can't ignore the good, and it all adds up to mid tier like I've already asserted. 

Just because you can recall three dozen ugly plays from the guy doesn't mean he had a terrible season. He played 1,108 snaps and you have to weigh all of them in your assessment.

But I'm not ignoring the good. That's my assessment of the entire year back to front , good plays included.  Different eyes and all that I guess. Only Church was worse in last year's starting defense for me.  
The two things I expect above all else from a starting LB is run fits and coverage, I can generally live with some missed tackles from Telvin because some are a product of his range and style. He gets a chance to get some revenge early next year Vs the Chiefs at least.

It'd be pretty surprising if he wasn't better this season

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Who would bet that he won't be better than the low that he was at last year? That would be silly.

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The only things he was below average at when you add it all up were probably coverage and run fits. Both already explained repeatedly. I'd say he was only "below-average-to-average" in these areas overall as he had plenty of good performance in each category to go with the bad. The getting off blocks thing for the latter half of the season likely had much to do with the injury.  

His ugly stuff was ugly. But you can't ignore the good, and it all adds up to mid tier like I've already asserted. 

Just because you can recall three dozen ugly plays from the guy doesn't mean he had a terrible season. He played 1,108 snaps and you have to weigh all of them in your assessment.

But I'm not ignoring the good. That's my assessment of the entire year back to front , good plays included.  Different eyes and all that I guess. Only Church was worse in last year's starting defense for me.  
The two things I expect above all else from a starting LB is run fits and coverage, I can generally live with some missed tackles from Telvin because some are a product of his range and style. He gets a chance to get some revenge early next year Vs the Chiefs at least.

It'd be pretty surprising if he wasn't better this season

To each his own. 

I saw some terrible snaps. 

I did not see legit terrible on the whole.

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Our guys were just a lil too high on themselves last year. A lil humble pie can be a good thing.

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You Gotta Be Able To Run Da' Rock~

Made him the fall guy by giving him a contract extension?  How in the world did he make him the fall guy?

By letting him go with zero repercussions of his own.  Blake was his guy, his signature pick and cornerstone of the franchise.

Blake's failure was Dave's failure.

Baffling why the obvious must be explained, but... here we are.

That's a reaaalllllyyy funny interpretation of 'being the fall guy'.  Also funny that since it's so 'obvious' that you had to explain it to more than one person.  So...what?  he was supposed to keep Bortles?  Explain more 'obvious' stuff to me.

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