So mikesez says ... "that the party you have unduly pledged allegiance to (though some of you claim to be independent, hah)"

I don't know what that means. Does that mean everybody that claims middle ground are lying? To be honest, I haven't noticed much middle ground in politics for many years, and it ain't getting anything even remotely close to being better. Sure, blame them (the other side), or blame him (pick one).  mikesez doesn't come off as middle ground either ... This sucks, and it is going to get way worse before it gets better. It won't get better, because look at the guy you are debating on this board (from both sides). You think he is going to change, and you don't have to? You fools are digging in, not working together. The divide is growing, and it didn't start a couple years ago.

Bunch of thick headed people lead our country, and have for more than one Presidency.  They aren't just located in the White House either. They are in every branch. They are alive and well living next door to each other ... in your own neighborhoods. Last Democrat President I voted for was Clinton. When are we ever going to get two middle ground Presidential nominations again? Not like this we aren't

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So mikesez says ... "that the party you have unduly pledged allegiance to (though some of you claim to be independent, hah)"

I don't know what that means. Does that mean everybody that claims middle ground are lying? To be honest, I haven't noticed much middle ground in politics for many years, and it ain't getting anything even remotely close to being better. Sure, blame them (the other side), or blame him (pick one).  mikesez doesn't come off as middle ground either ...  This sucks, and it is going to get way worse before it gets better. It won't get better, because look at the guy you are debating on this board (from both sides). You think he is going to change, and you don't have to? You fools are digging in, not working together. The divide is growing, and it didn't start a couple years ago.

Bunch of thick headed people lead our country, and have for more than one Presidency.  They aren't just located in the White House either. They are in every branch. They are alive and well living next door to each other ... in your own neighborhoods. Last Democrat President I voted for was Clinton. When are we ever going to get two middle ground Presidential nominations again? Not like this we aren't

Sammy, TBH that wasn't very well worded on my part. I was mostly referring to people who claim to be independent or libertarian, but seem to direct most of their fire at Democrats, regardless of if Democrats are in power or not.

All I'm really asking for is conversation partners that are willing to praise or criticize any politician regardless of party affiliation. I wish there were more people who had ideals or scruples that went beyond party labels. Sometimes I get that here, but in that thread I did not.

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

I despise the left and have made no bones about it pretty much ever. Republicans are [BLEEP] who are a fraction more to the right than Democrats but not enough to be anything other than big government politicos. There is no party of the Right in this country, the American political spectrum shifted so far left that the "Right" is now the center and the Republican Party of today are Kennedy Democrats at best.

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And I love Trump for no other reason than all you [BLEEP] holes hate him.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

I despise the left and have made no bones about it pretty much ever. Republicans are [BLEEP] who are a fraction more to the right than Democrats but not enough to be anything other than big government politicos. There is no party of the Right in this country, the American political spectrum shifted so far left that the "Right" is now the center and the Republican Party of today are Kennedy Democrats at best.

---

And I love Trump for no other reason than all you [BLEEP] holes hate him.

....  Sad but true...

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So mikesez says ... "that the party you have unduly pledged allegiance to (though some of you claim to be independent, hah)"

I don't know what that means. Does that mean everybody that claims middle ground are lying? To be honest, I haven't noticed much middle ground in politics for many years, and it ain't getting anything even remotely close to being better. Sure, blame them (the other side), or blame him (pick one).  mikesez doesn't come off as middle ground either ...  This sucks, and it is going to get way worse before it gets better. It won't get better, because look at the guy you are debating on this board (from both sides). You think he is going to change, and you don't have to? You fools are digging in, not working together. The divide is growing, and it didn't start a couple years ago.

Bunch of thick headed people lead our country, and have for more than one Presidency.  They aren't just located in the White House either. They are in every branch. They are alive and well living next door to each other ... in your own neighborhoods. Last Democrat President I voted for was Clinton. When are we ever going to get two middle ground Presidential nominations again? Not like this we aren't

Sammy, TBH that wasn't very well worded on my part. I was mostly referring to people who claim to be independent or libertarian, but seem to direct most of their fire at Democrats, regardless of if Democrats are in power or not.

All I'm really asking for is conversation partners that are willing to praise or criticize any politician regardless of party affiliation. I wish there were more people who had ideals or scruples that went beyond party labels. Sometimes I get that here, but in that thread I did not.

Funny. I wish there were more people in the Republican Party who actually held that Party's ideals, but instead it's full of Mikesez RINOs.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Well, I despise the Democrats on the left, and I despise Trump.   I'm probably a Republican in a lot of ways.   If the election were Trump vs someone like Elizabeth Warren, I would have a hard time deciding which one would do more damage to the country, so I'd probably vote for an independent candidate.  

I don't believe in "big government" or "small government."  I want the government to do things that work.  

I believe in capitalism and private property.  I believe in freedom, as long as your freedom doesn't infringe on my freedom.  On the other hand, when it comes to issues like "We need fewer regulations,"  tell me which regulations you want to repeal, and we can discuss them.  "We need fewer regulations" is just a shallow slogan, nothing more.  

I do agree that a lot of people seem to have joined a team, and pledged team loyalty, and spend a lot of time indoctrinating themselves.  

A lot of you guys don't seem very interested in thinking open-mindedly about political issues.  You're just here for the argument, and to prove how smart you are, to a dozen people you have never seen in person and likely will never actually meet.   And God forbid you actually change your mind about anything.

I've changed my approach to politics.   I'm trying to quit arguing in a knee-jerk fashion.  My intent is to try to understand other people.  Ask them why they feel the way they do.   Ask them to explain.  I think that's much more interesting than just trying to show how smart I am by refuting their assertions.

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Well, I despise the Democrats on the left, and I despise Trump.   I'm probably a Republican in a lot of ways.   If the election were Trump vs someone like Elizabeth Warren, I would have a hard time deciding which one would do more damage to the country, so I'd probably vote for an independent candidate.  

I don't believe in "big government" or "small government."  I want the government to do things that work.  

I believe in capitalism and private property.  I believe in freedom, as long as your freedom doesn't infringe on my freedom.  On the other hand, when it comes to issues like "We need fewer regulations,"  tell me which regulations you want to repeal, and we can discuss them.  "We need fewer regulations" is just a shallow slogan, nothing more.  

I do agree that a lot of people seem to have joined a team, and pledged team loyalty, and spend a lot of time indoctrinating themselves.  

A lot of you guys don't seem very interested in thinking open-mindedly about political issues.  You're just here for the argument, and to prove how smart you are, to a dozen people you have never seen in person and likely will never actually meet.   And God forbid you actually change your mind about anything.

I've changed my approach to politics.   I'm trying to quit arguing in a knee-jerk fashion.  My intent is to try to understand other people.  Ask them why they feel the way they do.   Ask them to explain.  I think that's much more interesting than just trying to show how smart I am by refuting their assertions.

who are you, and how did you get in my brain and figure out all of my opinions, and why did you copy them?

---

My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Well, I despise the Democrats on the left, and I despise Trump.   I'm probably a Republican in a lot of ways.   If the election were Trump vs someone like Elizabeth Warren, I would have a hard time deciding which one would do more damage to the country, so I'd probably vote for an independent candidate.  

I don't believe in "big government" or "small government."  I want the government to do things that work.  

I believe in capitalism and private property.  I believe in freedom, as long as your freedom doesn't infringe on my freedom.  On the other hand, when it comes to issues like "We need fewer regulations,"  tell me which regulations you want to repeal, and we can discuss them.  "We need fewer regulations" is just a shallow slogan, nothing more.  

I do agree that a lot of people seem to have joined a team, and pledged team loyalty, and spend a lot of time indoctrinating themselves.  

A lot of you guys don't seem very interested in thinking open-mindedly about political issues.  You're just here for the argument, and to prove how smart you are, to a dozen people you have never seen in person and likely will never actually meet.   And God forbid you actually change your mind about anything.

I've changed my approach to politics.   I'm trying to quit arguing in a knee-jerk fashion.  My intent is to try to understand other people.  Ask them why they feel the way they do.   Ask them to explain.  I think that's much more interesting than just trying to show how smart I am by refuting their assertions.

Great post.

---

Well, I despise the Democrats on the left, and I despise Trump.   I'm probably a Republican in a lot of ways.   If the election were Trump vs someone like Elizabeth Warren, I would have a hard time deciding which one would do more damage to the country, so I'd probably vote for an independent candidate.  

I don't believe in "big government" or "small government."  I want the government to do things that work.  

I believe in capitalism and private property.  I believe in freedom, as long as your freedom doesn't infringe on my freedom.  On the other hand, when it comes to issues like "We need fewer regulations,"  tell me which regulations you want to repeal, and we can discuss them.  "We need fewer regulations" is just a shallow slogan, nothing more.  

I do agree that a lot of people seem to have joined a team, and pledged team loyalty, and spend a lot of time indoctrinating themselves.  

A lot of you guys don't seem very interested in thinking open-mindedly about political issues.  You're just here for the argument, and to prove how smart you are, to a dozen people you have never seen in person and likely will never actually meet.   And God forbid you actually change your mind about anything.

I've changed my approach to politics.   I'm trying to quit arguing in a knee-jerk fashion.  My intent is to try to understand other people.  Ask them why they feel the way they do.   Ask them to explain.  I think that's much more interesting than just trying to show how smart I am by refuting their assertions.

who are you, and how did you get in my brain and figure out all of my opinions, and why did you copy them?

Except I have actually seen him take this approach. It may have been your intent to use the same thought process in the beginning but you definitely do not post with this so called shared mindset. Your posts used to be well thought out with two sided viewpoints that you seem to straddle, albeit very long winded. Now your posts are anti-Republican and anti-Trump with no room for discussion.

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I'm a social liberal and a fiscal conservative.

I don't care what they hell people do as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else (against their will).

I want the government to protect our borders and build general infrastructure that the general public can use at no cost.... that's it.

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I’m old school and typically swing more conservative, however the political climate has changed drastically over the last couple decades. I vote based on belief of action versus talk. I have a nationalistic mindset in that America and what got us to such a prosperous state is #1 and what is good for the majority is #2. We can’t sqeaky wheel legislate and make policy that addresses every single issue in every subgroup. I certainly do not support giving up freedoms at any cost. We all should know at this point once it is eroded, there is no getting it back.

My sticky points in politics over the last decade are government growth and intrusion. Government should not be getting bigger, more powerful and exponentially more expensive. Refine what works and eliminate what doesn’t. Stop the pet projects!!

I have no hardcore allegiance to any one party and would/will vote for the candidate that best aligns in benefiting America as a whole and one I truly believe can backup what they preach.

---

who are you, and how did you get in my brain and figure out all of my opinions, and why did you copy them?

Except I have actually seen him take this approach. It may have been your intent to use the same thought process in the beginning but you definitely do not post with this so called shared mindset. Your posts used to be well thought out with two sided viewpoints that you seem to straddle, albeit very long winded. Now your posts are anti-Republican and anti-Trump with no room for discussion.

Right.  I tried being more Socratic and tried to present both sides but it didn't seem to be changing anyone's mind or telling anyone things they didn't already know. I didn't get any positive feedback for it.  So now I figure I should just speak from the gut more. And my gut hates Trump's guts, rationally or not.

---

My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Funny. I wish there were more people in the Republican Party who actually held that Party's ideals, but instead it's full of Mikesez RINOs.

Can you list the ideals that you are referring to?

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Funny. I wish there were more people in the Republican Party who actually held that Party's ideals, but instead it's full of Mikesez RINOs.

Can you list the ideals that you are referring to?

Fiscally responsible and small government.

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Original Season Ticket Holder - Retired  1995 - 2020


At some point you just have to let go of what you thought should happen and live in what is happening.
 

Except I have actually seen him take this approach. It may have been your intent to use the same thought process in the beginning but you definitely do not post with this so called shared mindset. Your posts used to be well thought out with two sided viewpoints that you seem to straddle, albeit very long winded. Now your posts are anti-Republican and anti-Trump with no room for discussion.

Right.  I tried being more Socratic and tried to present both sides but it didn't seem to be changing anyone's mind or telling anyone things they didn't already know. I didn't get any positive feedback for it.  So now I figure I should just speak from the gut more. And my gut hates Trump's guts, rationally or not.

We didn't need you to explain that, we knew what you were from the beginning.

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Can you list the ideals that you are referring to?

Fiscally responsible and small government.

Limited foreign involvement, encouraging free enterprise, and balancing conservation and economic health.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Right.  I tried being more Socratic and tried to present both sides but it didn't seem to be changing anyone's mind or telling anyone things they didn't already know. I didn't get any positive feedback for it.  So now I figure I should just speak from the gut more. And my gut hates Trump's guts, rationally or not.

We didn't need you to explain that, we knew what you were from the beginning.

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You still don't know what I am.  I doubt you care enough to find out, which is fine, but you can't claim to know.

---

My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

We didn't need you to explain that, we knew what you were from the beginning.

---

You still don't know what I am.  I doubt you care enough to find out, which is fine, but you can't claim to know.

I can't huh?

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Well, I despise the Democrats on the left, and I despise Trump.   I'm probably a Republican in a lot of ways.   If the election were Trump vs someone like Elizabeth Warren, I would have a hard time deciding which one would do more damage to the country, so I'd probably vote for an independent candidate.  

I don't believe in "big government" or "small government."  I want the government to do things that work.  

I believe in capitalism and private property.  I believe in freedom, as long as your freedom doesn't infringe on my freedom.  On the other hand, when it comes to issues like "We need fewer regulations,"  tell me which regulations you want to repeal, and we can discuss them.  "We need fewer regulations" is just a shallow slogan, nothing more.  

I do agree that a lot of people seem to have joined a team, and pledged team loyalty, and spend a lot of time indoctrinating themselves.  

A lot of you guys don't seem very interested in thinking open-mindedly about political issues.  You're just here for the argument, and to prove how smart you are, to a dozen people you have never seen in person and likely will never actually meet.   And God forbid you actually change your mind about anything.

I've changed my approach to politics.   I'm trying to quit arguing in a knee-jerk fashion.  My intent is to try to understand other people.  Ask them why they feel the way they do.   Ask them to explain.  I think that's much more interesting than just trying to show how smart I am by refuting their assertions.

Thank you Marty (The Real One). I couldn't have said it better at all.

It's like we have two football teams trying to stop the other team from scoring a touchdown. Stop them at all cost ... Even if it benefits Team America.



What if we call the Democratic team The Jaguars, and the Republican team The Titans? (Total meltdown)

---

You still don't know what I am.  I doubt you care enough to find out, which is fine, but you can't claim to know.

I can't huh?

You can't. You are not able. Not yet, anyhow
However, 
You may try.  You don't need anyone's permission to figure me out, it just might be beyond your abilities.

---

My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

I can't huh?

You can't. You are not able. Not yet, anyhow
However, 
You may try.  You don't need anyone's permission to figure me out, it just might be beyond your abilities.

Yes, you're soooooo complex I could study the workings of your great mind as others have studied all the greats, Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, Simpson, Griffin and come away struck with awe.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato