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Offensive Philosophy (merged)

#1

With the apparently impending signing of Nick Foles, and the hiring of his old QB coach to be the offensive coordinator, a lot of people are alleging that we need to have the same type of offensive system that they ran in Philly that made Foles so successful there.  

I think this question would drive a lot of the decisions about what players to draft that fit such a system.  For example, if we pick a RB late in the draft, what type skill set should that RB have that would fit the system we plan to run.  If we plan to be running a lot of play-action, does that mean we need a RB who can run between the tackles?  Or does it matter?  

I know New England tries to get players that fit their system.   So what is our system going to look like and what kind of players would fit that system?
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#2

(03-07-2019, 06:52 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: With the apparently impending signing of Nick Foles, and the hiring of his old QB coach to be the offensive coordinator, a lot of people are alleging that we need to have the same type of offensive system that they ran in Philly that made Foles so successful there.  

I think this question would drive a lot of the decisions about what players to draft that fit such a system.  For example, if we pick a RB late in the draft, what type skill set should that RB have that would fit the system we plan to run.  If we plan to be running a lot of play-action, does that mean we need a RB who can run between the tackles?  Or does it matter?  

I know New England tries to get players that fit their system.   So what is our system going to look like and what kind of players would fit that system?

Good post. I think this is the most interesting part of the offseason bar who is actually at QB. 

Marrones teams have been traditionally been pretty bland run first outfits but he's also been handcuffed by arguably the worst collection of QBs an NFL coach has had to deal with over his first 4/5 seasons. But Marrone also has been with Sean Payton in New Orleans, De Filippo is of course pass heavy and Tom himself, whatever influence he has on that we can only guess, is no stranger to high flying offense. 

So what will our philosophy actually be? They've already said it won't be De Filippo purely running his own offense but rather they will all build it together. There's no way De Filippo would sign up to another year of being forced to run the ball right? 

If it's the going to be an attempt to replicate the Eagles offense as best we can for Foles then expect the first noticeable change to be us bringing in RB who can catch passes out of the backfield and take it upfield. James White types (James Williams is a good option in the draft). A large part of Foles success was through the screen game so that should be #1 on the agenda for an offense with him. Give him easy plays to stay in rhythm and beat pressure/blitzs.
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#3

(03-07-2019, 08:04 AM)JackCity Wrote:
(03-07-2019, 06:52 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: With the apparently impending signing of Nick Foles, and the hiring of his old QB coach to be the offensive coordinator, a lot of people are alleging that we need to have the same type of offensive system that they ran in Philly that made Foles so successful there.  

I think this question would drive a lot of the decisions about what players to draft that fit such a system.  For example, if we pick a RB late in the draft, what type skill set should that RB have that would fit the system we plan to run.  If we plan to be running a lot of play-action, does that mean we need a RB who can run between the tackles?  Or does it matter?  

I know New England tries to get players that fit their system.   So what is our system going to look like and what kind of players would fit that system?

Good post. I think this is the most interesting part of the offseason bar who is actually at QB. 

Marrones teams have been traditionally been pretty bland run first outfits but he's also been handcuffed by arguably the worst collection of QBs an NFL coach has had to deal with over his first 4/5 seasons. But Marrone also has been with Sean Payton in New Orleans, De Filippo is of course pass heavy and Tom himself, whatever influence he has on that we can only guess, is no stranger to high flying offense. 

So what will our philosophy actually be? They've already said it won't be De Filippo purely running his own offense but rather they will all build it together. There's no way De Filippo would sign up to another year of being forced to run the ball right? 

If it's the going to be an attempt to replicate the Eagles offense as best we can for Foles then expect the first noticeable change to be us bringing in RB who can catch passes out of the backfield and take it upfield. James White types (James Williams is a good option in the draft). A large part of Foles success was through the screen game so that should be #1 on the agenda for an offense with him. Give him easy plays to stay in rhythm and beat pressure/blitzs.

My impression is that Philly ran a lot of RPO stuff.  That seems like it would require RBs who can threaten a defense between the tackles.
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#4

(03-07-2019, 08:14 AM)The Real Marty Wrote:
(03-07-2019, 08:04 AM)JackCity Wrote: Good post. I think this is the most interesting part of the offseason bar who is actually at QB. 

Marrones teams have been traditionally been pretty bland run first outfits but he's also been handcuffed by arguably the worst collection of QBs an NFL coach has had to deal with over his first 4/5 seasons. But Marrone also has been with Sean Payton in New Orleans, De Filippo is of course pass heavy and Tom himself, whatever influence he has on that we can only guess, is no stranger to high flying offense. 

So what will our philosophy actually be? They've already said it won't be De Filippo purely running his own offense but rather they will all build it together. There's no way De Filippo would sign up to another year of being forced to run the ball right? 

If it's the going to be an attempt to replicate the Eagles offense as best we can for Foles then expect the first noticeable change to be us bringing in RB who can catch passes out of the backfield and take it upfield. James White types (James Williams is a good option in the draft). A large part of Foles success was through the screen game so that should be #1 on the agenda for an offense with him. Give him easy plays to stay in rhythm and beat pressure/blitzs.

My impression is that Philly ran a lot of RPO stuff.  That seems like it would require RBs who can threaten a defense between the tackles.

Not really , it's just about keeping the LBs conflicted about if they need to flow to the ball or get to their coverage spots. It will work with any back 

Kind of like how playaction works even if you don't have a good running game.
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#5

(03-07-2019, 08:31 AM)JackCity Wrote:
(03-07-2019, 08:14 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: My impression is that Philly ran a lot of RPO stuff.  That seems like it would require RBs who can threaten a defense between the tackles.

Not really , it's just about keeping the LBs conflicted about if they need to flow to the ball or get to their coverage spots. It will work with any back 

Kind of like how playaction works even if you don't have a good running game.

The only thing that determines your play action are the type of runs you run, not what type of back you have. So if you are a power team, then most of your play action passes will come off of power, if you are an outside zone team(see Manning's Colts) then most your play action come off outside zone/stretch.
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#6

Philly loves TE's, I think targeting a TE early in the draft will and should be a priority if Foles is signed.
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#7

(03-07-2019, 09:52 AM)Browntrouser Wrote: Philly loves TE's, I think targeting a TE early in the draft will and should be a priority if Foles is signed.

To have a really strong play action game, you need really good TEs who can block and catch.
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#8

In my opinion, our system is perfect the way it is. Fix the TE position and it could be dominant. We also need to have a coaching staff that is willing to lean on an RB that has the hot hand. No more forced carries for 1 yard and a cloud of dust (Looking at you Fournette). Our stable of backs is a good mix as neither one is good at everything. I loved what was happening before Grant got hurt. This will also open up the WRs.
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#9

I think having a 'cerebral' QB who can make a quick and decisive read also helps. Looking back at the QBs we have had over the past, it is almost as though the offense has been hamstrung in that aspect. There have been a few, set plays to where its see the play/make the play. Garrard/Gabs/Blake just didn't have it between the ears to make plays on the fly. If it broke down, THEY broke down. Having a smarter QB back there will help bail the offense out. Is Foles a SMART QB? That remains to be proven. Is he smarter than we've had in the past DECADE? I think that goes beyond a doubt.....

“Motivation alone is not enough.  If you have an idiot and you motivate him,now you have a motivated idiot.” Jim Rohn

 
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#10

(03-07-2019, 09:39 AM)Dimson Wrote:
(03-07-2019, 08:31 AM)JackCity Wrote: Not really , it's just about keeping the LBs conflicted about if they need to flow to the ball or get to their coverage spots. It will work with any back 

Kind of like how playaction works even if you don't have a good running game.

The only thing that determines your play action are the type of runs you run, not what type of back you have. So if you are a power team, then most of your play action passes will come off of power, if you are an outside zone team(see Manning's Colts) then most your play action come off outside zone/stretch.

Can you do RPO off an outside zone stretch play?   RPO requires the QB to be looking down field at the receiver while he is deciding whether to let the RB keep the ball.  In a zone stretch play, sure you can do play action, but you can't do RPO.   Am I wrong?
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#11

(03-07-2019, 08:14 AM)The Real Marty Wrote:
(03-07-2019, 08:04 AM)JackCity Wrote: Good post. I think this is the most interesting part of the offseason bar who is actually at QB. 

Marrones teams have been traditionally been pretty bland run first outfits but he's also been handcuffed by arguably the worst collection of QBs an NFL coach has had to deal with over his first 4/5 seasons. But Marrone also has been with Sean Payton in New Orleans, De Filippo is of course pass heavy and Tom himself, whatever influence he has on that we can only guess, is no stranger to high flying offense. 

So what will our philosophy actually be? They've already said it won't be De Filippo purely running his own offense but rather they will all build it together. There's no way De Filippo would sign up to another year of being forced to run the ball right? 

If it's the going to be an attempt to replicate the Eagles offense as best we can for Foles then expect the first noticeable change to be us bringing in RB who can catch passes out of the backfield and take it upfield. James White types (James Williams is a good option in the draft). A large part of Foles success was through the screen game so that should be #1 on the agenda for an offense with him. Give him easy plays to stay in rhythm and beat pressure/blitzs.

My impression is that Philly ran a lot of RPO stuff.  That seems like it would require RBs who can threaten a defense between the tackles.

It was just about as simple of an Offense you could run, is what they ran with Foles. Pretty much all RPO stuff like you said and he hardly had to do anything, which is why he wasn't exposed and actually looked decent at times. They lined him up in a shotgun and told him to read his one of two targets on the play and that's about it.

Problem is, Fournette is completely useless in that kind of Offense because he is garbage in the shotgun formation. He needs to be in the I formation, because that's about the only formation he can run out of without looking lost. If they try and run the same shotgun, RPO offense here with Fournette it's going to fail badly.

Devin Singletary would be the perfect RB for that Offense though.
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#12

(03-07-2019, 12:32 PM)The Real Marty Wrote:
(03-07-2019, 09:39 AM)Dimson Wrote: The only thing that determines your play action are the type of runs you run, not what type of back you have. So if you are a power team, then most of your play action passes will come off of power, if you are an outside zone team(see Manning's Colts) then most your play action come off outside zone/stretch.

Can you do RPO off an outside zone stretch play?   RPO requires the QB to be looking down field at the receiver while he is deciding whether to let the RB keep the ball.  In a zone stretch play, sure you can do play action, but you can't do RPO.   Am I wrong?

You can do plenty of outside zone RPOs from the gun but I can't recall seeing an RPO where a QB turns his back on the defense, so yeah p sure you are right.
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#13

As it looks like Yeldon is gone, They need a good pass catching/pass protection third down RB/scat back. I do think LF can actually do that, but he seems so injury prone, that limiting his workload there seems ideal. One FA that could fill that spot as veteran with low cost is Jaquizz Rodgers. I know it's not flashy, and he is not a a guy you design an offense around, but he would be really productive. Otherwise looking for some special athletes late in the draft.

LF future with the team will really depend on his appeal regarding his contract guarantees being negated. If that decision is upheld. He will have a very short lease this fall.
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#14
(This post was last modified: 03-07-2019, 04:54 PM by Caldrac.)

(03-07-2019, 06:52 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: With the apparently impending signing of Nick Foles, and the hiring of his old QB coach to be the offensive coordinator, a lot of people are alleging that we need to have the same type of offensive system that they ran in Philly that made Foles so successful there.  

I think this question would drive a lot of the decisions about what players to draft that fit such a system.  For example, if we pick a RB late in the draft, what type skill set should that RB have that would fit the system we plan to run.  If we plan to be running a lot of play-action, does that mean we need a RB who can run between the tackles?  Or does it matter?  

I know New England tries to get players that fit their system.   So what is our system going to look like and what kind of players would fit that system?

We need an above average athlete with good quickness and hands at the TE position. Preferably two of them. DeFilippo's had an emphasis in the passing game around that position. Even at CLE he was using Barnidge heavily. And of course he had Ertz in PHI as the QB coach with Foles. Rudolph in MIN as well. 

I would keep an eye on any of the big name TE's in this year's draft. Hockenson, Fant, Wilson out of UCLA, maybe Oliver out of San Jose St. etc. Any combination of those guys would pay dividends in this system.

RB wise I would say he's looking for a multipurpose player or players that can do it all. Again, if you look at his one year stint with CLE he had Duke Johnson featured heavily in the passing game. And his one year stint in MIN he was trying to do the same things with Dalvin Cook and Murray. 

WR wise. Hard to say really. We know Foles isn't shy from throwing up 50/50 balls if he's got a tall enough target to high point it to on the outside. This is a quietly deep WR class. Keep an eye out for guys like Harry out of Arizona St. Sills out of West Virginia and even Butler out of Iowa St. who is fixing to climb up draftboards after that 4.4 40 he posted. He's 6'6 with an outstanding radius. Good frame to grow into at the next level. 

That's about it really.
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#15

(03-07-2019, 12:32 PM)The Real Marty Wrote:
(03-07-2019, 09:39 AM)Dimson Wrote: The only thing that determines your play action are the type of runs you run, not what type of back you have. So if you are a power team, then most of your play action passes will come off of power, if you are an outside zone team(see Manning's Colts) then most your play action come off outside zone/stretch.

Can you do RPO off an outside zone stretch play?   RPO requires the QB to be looking down field at the receiver while he is deciding whether to let the RB keep the ball.  In a zone stretch play, sure you can do play action, but you can't do RPO.   Am I wrong?

Isn't this an RPO off an outside zone stretch from the Gun?


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#16

(03-07-2019, 04:54 PM)rpr52121 Wrote:
(03-07-2019, 12:32 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: Can you do RPO off an outside zone stretch play?   RPO requires the QB to be looking down field at the receiver while he is deciding whether to let the RB keep the ball.  In a zone stretch play, sure you can do play action, but you can't do RPO.   Am I wrong?

Isn't this an RPO off an outside zone stretch from the Gun?

Lord. Kelce (the center) is so good.
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#17

As far as how it will look? It'll be a lot of stretch plays that take time to develop. They'll have TE screens, RB screens, swing passes, options. Quick "pop" routes inside to the TE's.

And then you'll get several deep shots per game. PA will be used a lot. He was ran out of MIN by Zimmer for not running it enough. If they sign Foles you know he's going to by trying to sling it 25+ times per game. I would like to see Fournette used more in the passing game anyway. And hopefully Grant is up to speed from his injury last year. He might honestly be a good fit in this system.
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"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."
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#18

I’m just curious to see if the new OC is better at utilizing players’ individual skillsets than his predecessor.

We don’t know who some of those players are yet, and we don’t know how much shift we’ll see in terms of run vs pass balance, so kind of impossible to really predict anything IMO.

If I had to guess, the notion of Flip doing what worked with Foles in 2018 is a good starting point.
That will likely mean meaningful additions at TE, and possibly a COP running back with receiver skills.

We’ll know  more when the dust settles from free agency.
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#19

(03-07-2019, 04:56 PM)Caldrac Wrote: As far as how it will look? It'll be a lot of stretch plays that take time to develop. They'll have TE screens, RB screens, swing passes, options. Quick "pop" routes inside to the TE's.

And then you'll get several deep shots per game. PA will be used a lot. He was ran out of MIN by Zimmer for not running it enough. If they sign Foles you know he's going to by trying to sling it 25+ times per game. I would like to see Fournette used more in the passing game anyway. And hopefully Grant is up to speed from his injury last year. He might honestly be a good fit in this system.

The problem is that Grant's appeal is based on quick acceleration into good top speed. A Lisfranc injury is one of the worst injuries he could have had because it can dramatically affect his quick acceleration.
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#20

(03-07-2019, 05:11 PM)rpr52121 Wrote:
(03-07-2019, 04:56 PM)Caldrac Wrote: As far as how it will look? It'll be a lot of stretch plays that take time to develop. They'll have TE screens, RB screens, swing passes, options. Quick "pop" routes inside to the TE's.

And then you'll get several deep shots per game. PA will be used a lot. He was ran out of MIN by Zimmer for not running it enough. If they sign Foles you know he's going to by trying to sling it 25+ times per game. I would like to see Fournette used more in the passing game anyway. And hopefully Grant is up to speed from his injury last year. He might honestly be a good fit in this system.

The problem is that Grant's appeal is based on quick acceleration into good top speed. A Lisfranc injury is one of the worst injuries he could have had because it can dramatically affect his quick acceleration.

That's true. I think MJD said that very same injury ultimately ended his career for him. It's a shame. Grant has been nothing but a team player and completely selfless since he's been here. That type of injury shouldn't have happened to a guy like that. Hope for the best.
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"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."
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