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TE Talk

#1
(This post was last modified: 03-14-2019, 02:39 AM by Bullseye.)

The more I study this draft class and consider the Jaguars needs, I find myself more fascinated over the possibilities in April's draft.  There are arguments to be made for taking a T early, as well as WR.  Given the injuries that happened last year and the release of Parnell, there is certainly a lot of support for taking one of the stud offensive linemen.  The right RT picked at 7 would give the team youth along the OL, open up some running lanes, and provide much needed protection for our new QB.  D.K. Metcalf seems to be a unique physical specimen at the position.  If his route running capabilities can be refined and he can stay healthy, Metcalf would provide our offense with a faster version of Alshon Jeffrey, a favorite target of Foles when he was in Philadelphia.  Either one of those positions could help the Jaguars a great deal.  However, I think the TE position is the most intriguing to me,and it gives us the most possibilities. 

There was another thread asking if we should double down on offensive linemen early.  As compelling an argument as there is for taking two OL early, I think there is a stronger case for taking two TEs early.  First off, this is another strong and deep TE class.  Double dipping out of this deep talent pool can only help make our draft class stronger if we hit on two players from this deep part of the draft.  Secondly, drafting two TEs would give us much needed depth at the position.  As it stands now, we don't have much at the position.  While taking one TE from this draft class would certainly upgrade the position, taking one would leave us perilously thin at the position.  An injury would negate any improvement at the position if it means the same unimpressive guys that can't beat coverages are in getting playing time, putting us right back in the position we would be in had we not drafted a TE this year at all-at least for the duration of the injury.  Furthermore, drafting two TEs in this class would enable us to create some mismatches.  If you think back to two of the most effective offenses in recent years_New England and Philadelphia, both featured two TEs that could/can beat coverages.  The Patriots offered a young Gronk and a pre murderous Aaron Hernandez.  Furthermore, last year's Eagles offered an imposing TE duo of Zach Ertz and Dallas Goedert.  I believe the Jaguars offense would benefit a great deal from a similar dynamic, especially when it comes to easing the transition for Foles.  Whether you liked the Foles signing or not, one of the big concerns associated with it is the lack of weapons surrounding him in comparison to Philadelphia.  Drafting two TEs that can block and beat coverage would go a long way into giving Foles the tools at his disposal to win here.  Finally, drafting two TEs will be of tremendous help to the coaches.  Offensively, it allows for formation versatility, passing more effectively out of a personnel grouping that would clearly suggest run.  Defensively, it would help us better prepare for heavy TE teams like the Colts.  Even though we shut them out in the second game between us, the first game, they ate us alive with formations, many of which were two TE sets.  If we utilized those formations more in practice with credible blocking and receiving threats, the Colts couldn't surprise us with those as easily.  When you look back in Jaguars history,  you will find the team has been the most effective when it has been able to offer two of a given threat.  In the early days, our offense was good because we offered two great WRs in Jimmy Smith and Keenan and two great tackles in Boselli and Searcy.  During the JDR era, our running game was dominant because we had FT and MJD, and our run defense was dominant because we had two stid DT clogging up the middle in Stroud and Henderson.   Most recently, our trip to the AFC championship game was possible because we had dominant defensive dynamic duos in Ngakoue and Campbell rushing the passer, two fast lbs in Smith and Jack, and tw smothering CBs in zRamsey and Bouye.  Following up an early selection of a TE with a mid round selection of a TE-especially those with some athletic ability and speed, would do wonders for this offense by replicating the dual dynamic at a position we haven't done it before.

Now assuming the team is open to taking a TE in the first round, the conventional wisdom indicates Hockenson would be the pick.  TC prefers his TEs to be able to block, and Hockenson can definitely do that.  But are we selling Noah Fant short?  I read one scouting report that said Fant "blocks better than most."  Just because he isn't as effective blocking as Hockenson doesn't mean he can't block at all.  To me this begs the question:  is the difference in blocking ability between Hockenson and Fant greater than the difference between Fant's athletic ability and Hockenson's?  It's certainly no stretch to assume that a guy running a 4.51 like Fant would cause more coverage matchup issues for a defense than a guy like Hockenson running in the 4.7 range.  Make no mistake, I don't think you can go wrong with either player if you are committed to taking a TE in the first.  But I do wonder which one would be of more benefit to our offense, the better blocker or the better athlete.

Finally, I remember at the Senior bowl, the Jaguars were talking to LSU TE Foster Moreau.  I figured he was likely a strong blocking TE.  Goodness knows, the LSU passing offense was no great shakes over the years.  But then he ran that impressive 4.66 40 at the combine, and I'm thinking he can be one of a few good options in the mid rounds should we decide to double up on the position, or wait until later to address it at all.
 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!





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#2

I fully expect this team to take a TE at #7. I believe it will be Hockenson, but Fant is very, very close as well and I'd be fine with either one. In fact, I believe both will be selected in the top 20. I just hope the team recognizes the need for offensive line help as well and uses that #38 pick to draft a guy like Chris Lindstrom. He would be a HUGE upgrade over Cann. We could then find a swing Tackle type in the 3rd or 4th round like Chuma Edoga or Bobby Evans who could compete at both OT positions, giving us some flexibility a long the O-Line. With Will Richardson being a RT only, we're a little pigeon-holed at the moment.
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#3

If we take a TE in the first it wont even be a debate. I do hope we take another one in the mid to later rounds. I like Caleb Wilson as a recieving TE if we want to go that route
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#4
(This post was last modified: 03-14-2019, 07:57 AM by JagJohn.)

I'm also now thinking TE at 7 is the most likely route, for two reasons. First, it's a matter of opportunity cost; the difference between the quality of Hock and Fant in the first round to the TEs who would be available in the second round is, IMO, greater than the difference between the top O-line players (Taylor, Williams, Ford) and those that would be available in the 2nd, such as Risner, Lindstrom, McCoy. This suggests going TE then OL is the best way to maximize value. Second, picking an elite TE at 7 provides an immediate shift in the dynamic and, importantly, the perception of this offense, something that drafting OL wouldn't do. TE would give us that middle of the field threat that opposing teams would have to game plan for, and our team, and others would see that this team is being built around Foles with a focus on improving the passing offense. It would be a tone-setting pick, just like Fournette was two years ago. Also just like the Fournette pick 2 years ago, I'm not sure if it is the best way to use a high draft pick, but if the draft shakes out the way we expect (2 qbs and 3 studs all off the board before 7) then I think TE could well be the pick there.

As for Fant v Hockenson, I'm also coming round to the idea that Fant might be a better pick. If we want a receiving threat at TE, then pick the best receiving TE right? I suspect this FO will still go for Hock because of his superior all-around profile. I don't know, they are both great options and I also expect them both to be gone in the first 20 picks, especially now a whole bunch of teams have filled other holes in FA. If the Jags did trade down with the hope of picking one of Fant or Hock in the teens they would be taking a risk for sure.

Completely on-board for them to double-dip at the position this year too, although I fully expect them to bring in a veteran TE in FA sometime in the next week (possibly an uninspiring blocking type like Jermaine Gresham), which will alter the perceived need a bit. We have 0 reliable options on the roster right now, so two rookies would be welcome. Moreau is a great shout, think he has a very high ceiling. Warring is another that can develop behind a starter and turn into a real weapon. If someone like Knox were to slide he would be great, there's a lot of options that could be available around our 4th round pick, and still probably a few who could be available at our 6th rounder.
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#5

The only thing I am cautious about is that if you look at the track record of taking a TE in the first round and especially in the top of the first round, it isn't good. The top 3 TEs in the league were not drafted in the first round. I am not saying I would not take Hockenson or Fant, because I would, but I would be really nervous about it.
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#6

(03-14-2019, 05:08 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: I fully expect this team to take a TE at #7. I believe it will be Hockenson, but Fant is very, very close as well and I'd be fine with either one. In fact, I believe both will be selected in the top 20. I just hope the team recognizes the need for offensive line help as well and uses that #38 pick to draft a guy like Chris Lindstrom. He would be a HUGE  upgrade over Cann. We could then find a swing Tackle type in the 3rd or 4th round like Chuma Edoga or Bobby Evans who could compete at both OT positions, giving us some flexibility a long the O-Line. With Will Richardson being a RT only, we're a little pigeon-holed at the moment.

I agree.

In fact double dipping on the o line in addition to TE would be my ideal scenario.  Assuming we keep all seven picks, we could still pick a WR, RB, and a defender.
 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!





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#7

(03-14-2019, 08:46 AM)Bullseye Wrote:
(03-14-2019, 05:08 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: I fully expect this team to take a TE at #7. I believe it will be Hockenson, but Fant is very, very close as well and I'd be fine with either one. In fact, I believe both will be selected in the top 20. I just hope the team recognizes the need for offensive line help as well and uses that #38 pick to draft a guy like Chris Lindstrom. He would be a HUGE  upgrade over Cann. We could then find a swing Tackle type in the 3rd or 4th round like Chuma Edoga or Bobby Evans who could compete at both OT positions, giving us some flexibility a long the O-Line. With Will Richardson being a RT only, we're a little pigeon-holed at the moment.

I agree.

In fact double dipping on the o line in addition to TE would be my ideal scenario.  Assuming we keep all seven picks, we could still pick a WR, RB, and a defender.

My ideal positions to be selected would be a traditional TE, a pass catching TE, a guard who can play Center or Tackle as well, a Right Tackle, a shifty RB who can catch a ball, a possession WR and then the best defensive player remaining with the last pick or a developmental QB to compete for the back up role.
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#8

(03-14-2019, 09:30 AM)Dimson Wrote:
(03-14-2019, 08:46 AM)Bullseye Wrote: I agree.

In fact double dipping on the o line in addition to TE would be my ideal scenario.  Assuming we keep all seven picks, we could still pick a WR, RB, and a defender.

My ideal positions to be selected would be a traditional TE, a pass catching TE, a guard who can play Center or Tackle as well, a Right Tackle, a shifty RB who can catch a ball, a possession WR and then the best defensive player remaining with the last pick or a developmental QB to compete for the back up role.
I like the idea of Hockenson in round 1 and then finding another one in round 3 or 4. Last year, Ian Thomas, Mark Andrews, Chris Herndon and Jordan Akins all went in round 3 or later.
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#9

(03-14-2019, 09:35 AM)Cleatwood Wrote:
(03-14-2019, 09:30 AM)Dimson Wrote: My ideal positions to be selected would be a traditional TE, a pass catching TE, a guard who can play Center or Tackle as well, a Right Tackle, a shifty RB who can catch a ball, a possession WR and then the best defensive player remaining with the last pick or a developmental QB to compete for the back up role.
I like the idea of Hockenson in round 1 and then finding another one in round 3 or 4. Last year, Ian Thomas, Mark Andrews, Chris Herndon and Jordan Akins all went in round 3 or later.

Yea, I think Moreau will be there at the top of round 4. He and Hockenson would be a great combo. If he's not Nauta would also be a good pick.
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#10

I also like 2 TE from this draft. Ideally Hockenson in the first and Sterneberger in the 3rd or if we trade back and go Fant in the 1st then a Moreau in the 4th.
Though I think Coughlin will push for OT at 7 which as much as I'm not confident in Richardson starting I would hope won't happen as I think OT in the first would be better only if we manage to trade down a few spots and both Hockenson and Fant aren't there.
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#11

I have OL and TE prioritized WELL ahead of WR.
I think OL and TE ideally will consume 2 of the first three picks for the Jags.

I’d love to see a tackle with versatility to play inside selected.
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#12
(This post was last modified: 03-14-2019, 12:17 PM by Upper.)

(03-14-2019, 11:56 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: I have OL and TE prioritized WELL ahead of WR.
I think OL and TE ideally will consume 2 of the first three picks for the Jags.

I’d love to see a tackle with versatility to play inside selected.

I'm not sure about the OL need priority anymore. We basically have 4/5 of the OL locked in after Cann re-signed, and we drafted a pretty strong candidate to fill that 5th spot last year.

One the WR side, I think we only have one decent startable WR. Chark will hopefully show some development, but I have no faith in anyone after Dede and blind hope in Chark.

And y'all know my reservations for Cam Robinson, while knowing Cann sucks, so I'm definitely not saying oline is strong...just that WR is extraordinarily weak.
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#13

(03-14-2019, 12:17 PM)Upper Wrote:
(03-14-2019, 11:56 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: I have OL and TE prioritized WELL ahead of WR.
I think OL and TE ideally will consume 2 of the first three picks for the Jags.

I’d love to see a tackle with versatility to play inside selected.

I'm not sure about the OL need priority anymore. We basically have 4/5 of the OL locked in after Cann re-signed, and we drafted a pretty strong candidate to fill that 5th spot last year.

One the WR side, I think we only have one decent startable WR. Chark will hopefully show some development, but I have no faith in anyone after Dede and blind hope in Chark.

And y'all know my reservations for Cam Robinson, while knowing Cann sucks, so I'm definitely not saying oline is strong...just that WR is extraordinarily weak.

I'm not putting all my eggs in the Richardson basket, and I don't agree with you at all on the WR take. 

I expect Lee to produce, I expect Westbrook to really break out, I expect Chark to come into his own and I think Cole has a 50/50 shot of returning to form. Especially once you factor in a more accurate passer and hopefully a return to form form the run game. 

I'm totally fine with just adding a Jakobi Meyers or Keelan Doss type later in the draft after TE and OL are addressed. 

Cam remains to be determined and I'm more optimistic than you, but I'd not hate them taking a stud LT if they really think Cam can play the right side well.
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#14

Yea I'm not really prioritizing WR much at all. If someone they love drops, by all means go get him, but we took Chark in the 2nd last year, he's got to see the field this year. Then you have Lee who will get his and Dede who is awesome. That top 3 is pretty much locked in and even less room if we add a guy like Tate or Cobb
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#15

(03-14-2019, 12:17 PM)Upper Wrote:
(03-14-2019, 11:56 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: I have OL and TE prioritized WELL ahead of WR.
I think OL and TE ideally will consume 2 of the first three picks for the Jags.

I’d love to see a tackle with versatility to play inside selected.

I'm not sure about the OL need priority anymore. We basically have 4/5 of the OL locked in after Cann re-signed, and we drafted a pretty strong candidate to fill that 5th spot last year.

One the WR side, I think we only have one decent startable WR. Chark will hopefully show some development, but I have no faith in anyone after Dede and blind hope in Chark.

And y'all know my reservations for Cam Robinson, while knowing Cann sucks, so I'm definitely not saying oline is strong...just that WR is extraordinarily weak.

Whether or not we re-signed Cann, is irrelevant. He still sucks and needs to be upgraded. That hasn't changed. I still believe O-Line is a much weaker unit than the WR's. Marquise Lee will be returning, Westbrook is still solid and Chark has some experience under his belt. I would like to see how they do with a much better QB throwing to them. I believe we should still add a WR in the 3rd to 4th round range, but I don't think it's as dire a need as some people. If we draft an elite TE, and come back with a healthy unit of Lee, Westbrook and Chark, I believe Foles can be successful, but only if we can keep him protected, which I have no faith in, considering we have a RT with little to no NFL experience and a RG that sucks. I believe our QB's bear the bulk of the blame for our passing woes last year.
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#16

(03-14-2019, 02:14 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote:
(03-14-2019, 12:17 PM)Upper Wrote: I'm not sure about the OL need priority anymore. We basically have 4/5 of the OL locked in after Cann re-signed, and we drafted a pretty strong candidate to fill that 5th spot last year.

One the WR side, I think we only have one decent startable WR. Chark will hopefully show some development, but I have no faith in anyone after Dede and blind hope in Chark.

And y'all know my reservations for Cam Robinson, while knowing Cann sucks, so I'm definitely not saying oline is strong...just that WR is extraordinarily weak.

Whether or not we re-signed Cann, is irrelevant. He still sucks and needs to be upgraded. That hasn't changed. I still believe O-Line is a much weaker unit than the WR's. Marquise Lee will be returning, Westbrook is still solid and Chark has some experience under his belt. I would like to see how they do with a much better QB throwing to them. I believe we should still add a WR in the 3rd to 4th round range, but I don't think it's as dire a need as some people. If we draft an elite TE, and come back with a healthy unit of Lee, Westbrook and Chark, I believe Foles can be successful, but only if we can keep him protected, which I have no faith in, considering we have a RT with little to no NFL experience and a RG that sucks. I believe our QB's bear the bulk of the blame for our passing woes last year.

Agree, draft Hockenson and go oline in 2 of the next 3 picks.
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#17
(This post was last modified: 03-14-2019, 02:37 PM by roycee.)

I could see them bringing in Tyler Eifert on a one year "prove it" deal. I don't think it would effect draft strategy too much and they'd look to pick one up early in the draft.
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#18

1.) Hockenson - All around TE
2.)Lindstrom - True RG
3.)Knox - Bigger/Raw version on Evan Engram
3.)Cajuste - Athletic Swing Tackle
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#19
(This post was last modified: 03-14-2019, 04:26 PM by Upper.)

(03-14-2019, 02:14 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote:
(03-14-2019, 12:17 PM)Upper Wrote: I'm not sure about the OL need priority anymore. We basically have 4/5 of the OL locked in after Cann re-signed, and we drafted a pretty strong candidate to fill that 5th spot last year.

One the WR side, I think we only have one decent startable WR. Chark will hopefully show some development, but I have no faith in anyone after Dede and blind hope in Chark.

And y'all know my reservations for Cam Robinson, while knowing Cann sucks, so I'm definitely not saying oline is strong...just that WR is extraordinarily weak.

Whether or not we re-signed Cann, is irrelevant. He still sucks and needs to be upgraded. That hasn't changed. I still believe O-Line is a much weaker unit than the WR's. Marquise Lee will be returning, Westbrook is still solid and Chark has some experience under his belt. I would like to see how they do with a much better QB throwing to them. I believe we should still add a WR in the 3rd to 4th round range, but I don't think it's as dire a need as some people. If we draft an elite TE, and come back with a healthy unit of Lee, Westbrook and Chark, I believe Foles can be successful, but only if we can keep him protected, which I have no faith in, considering we have a RT with little to no NFL experience and a RG that sucks. I believe our QB's bear the bulk of the blame for our passing woes last year.

It doesn't matter what you or I think unfortunately, the team thinks that Robinson/Norwell/Linder/Cann is set. I do not think that the team thinks our WR corps are set. Westbrook, Chark, and Lee might be the worst WR corps in the league, especially for a team that has contending aspirations. Especially for one that just signed an average QB that we know needs a top shelf supporting cast.

And yeah I agree they are finally going to prioritize TE as the major need that they haven't treated thus far.
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#20

(03-14-2019, 04:24 PM)Upper Wrote:
(03-14-2019, 02:14 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: Whether or not we re-signed Cann, is irrelevant. He still sucks and needs to be upgraded. That hasn't changed. I still believe O-Line is a much weaker unit than the WR's. Marquise Lee will be returning, Westbrook is still solid and Chark has some experience under his belt. I would like to see how they do with a much better QB throwing to them. I believe we should still add a WR in the 3rd to 4th round range, but I don't think it's as dire a need as some people. If we draft an elite TE, and come back with a healthy unit of Lee, Westbrook and Chark, I believe Foles can be successful, but only if we can keep him protected, which I have no faith in, considering we have a RT with little to no NFL experience and a RG that sucks. I believe our QB's bear the bulk of the blame for our passing woes last year.

It doesn't matter what you or I think unfortunately, the team thinks that Robinson/Norwell/Linder/Cann is set. I do not think that the team thinks our WR corps are set. Westbrook, Chark, and Lee might be the worst WR corps in the league, especially for a team that has contending aspirations. Especially for one that just signed an average QB that we know needs a top shelf supporting cast.

And yeah I agree they are finally going to prioritize TE as the major need that they haven't treated thus far.

Just because the team signed Cann doesn't mean they wont take another guard early in the draft.  It's more for insurance if the value isnt there.  If Lindstrom is sitting there in the 2nd and he is the BPA I think they would still take him and Cann would be nice depth at either guard spot
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