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Cognitive dissonance and Expectations

#1
(This post was last modified: 09-10-2019, 07:58 PM by Bullseye. Edit Reason: Voice did not capture suffix and proofreading is fundamental )

Gus Bradley was fired- and justifiably so -after an unprecedented level of futility for the Jaguars. However,  the  bottom-line results are only part of the issue. If it were announced prior to his hiring that the Jaguars would be forced to stock their roster by randomly selecting people from the phone book I don't think any knowledgeable football fans would have expected Gus Bradley to produce anything other than the results that he produced. However Bradley was not saddled with such a burden. My question to you is given the talent that worth that was on his roster what were his expectations? How did his bottom-line results measure up to your expectations for the team especially by 2016?  Is it fair to say that your expectations for the team exceeded Bradley's results that year?  Why is that?

What were your expectations going into last year? Keep in mind the team had just come off an appearance in AFC championship game the year before. did you expect at least a playoff appearance in 2018? Why? When the Jaguars finished the season with a 5 and 11 record how did you feel afterwards? Were you disappointed? Why?

What were your expectations going into this year? Now we were blown out by Kansas City and undoubtedly all of us were disgusted at the result. W  Did you expect a better performance out of the Jaguars against Kansas City? Why?

People have lamented the team not retaining the services of Allen Robinson, even though there's indicia he didn't want to stay.  Along those lines, fans have been overwhelmingly in favor of re-signing Yannick Ngakoue, Jalen Ramsey and Myles Jack.  At the risk of redundancy, I have to ask why the reaction has been this way.

Fans were stoked after the first two rounds of this year's draft when we landed Josh Allen and Jawaan Taylor.  Furthermore, after initial apprehension, fans became more excited over the Q. Williams pick when camp reports first came out and Marrone gushed over his speed.  Yes, the why persists.

I pose these questions because many of you want Caldwell fired because of poor performance. but this poor performance is within the context of the talent that's on the roster. If you have high expectations for the talent that's on this roster, then how can you say Coldwell has done a poor job?  How can say that Caldwell has done a poor job stocking this team if, after he stocked the team, you've had high expectations for it? I believe those two principles are incompatible. Either he did a good job stocking the team and your expectations were realistic and something else happened to cause the team to not meet your realistically high expectations or he did a poor job stocking the team and your expectations were unrealistic despite the poor job.

Please straighten my dissonance here.
 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!





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#2
(This post was last modified: 09-10-2019, 09:27 AM by The Real Marty.)

"Indicia."  Good word.  

But to respond to your post, I often see fans call for the firing of the GM AND the HC, which makes no sense.  Either the coach is being given the talent and he is not maximizing it, or the GM is failing to stock the roster with adequate talent.  It's one or the other.   It cannot be both at the same time.

I guess I just repeated what you said.
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#3
(This post was last modified: 09-10-2019, 09:56 AM by D-Money.)

The issue is everything else that came with it. He gor Allen Robinson and found Allen Hurns our first 1k WRs since Jimmy and McCardell. They were one of the good points of the team then you let them go and we end up with Lee, Moncrief and Cole who did not produce. If they would have guaranteed ARs contract or gave exactly what the Bears gave, he would have stayed. So that is a poor decision under his watch.
Same thing goes for the team after we make it to the AFC conference game, 1st of all we should have won the game but he allowed the coaches to make the decisions they made, even though we were winning, all we had to do what make a few adjustments. He is not the coach but the coaches that he brought in made us miss out on the main reason most of the players play, to get to the Super Bowl, something we have never done before. These coaches have been doing the same thing last year and from the start of what we can see this year. If you are the GM, you have to make the decision it lies on you, if you allow these people to still be here.

My next issue relates to the last, we had just got got the Conference championship, the FO office being arrogant, would not bring back or work something with Poz causing him to retire. As it stands right now, if we had Poz on the field for depth and leadership it would help and I don't think we have as many discipline issues with the defense, Myles Jack and Telvin may still be here.
Also, no reason to not bring back Marcedes for leadership. The coach staff got big headed and thought they could replace players but did not understand that effect it would cause, basically what we are going thru right now.

Giving Bortles that contract rather making him earn it, knowing that he is always up and down, then just letting him walk.

Giving Foles extra money just to make sure he fills respected.
He has some decent drafts but overall when you look at it. We've only had 1 winning season with him which is looking like a fluke for now.  How long does a GM get? He is not making the necessary changes. He allows them to go on for long on before doing something. Even with Bradley, Bradley was a great person and everyone could see but it wasn't bringing in wins. He should have been fired the year before he was.

So its not necessarily him but the issues that everyone sees caused by the staff that he brought in and not addressing the issue but just letting it linger on. He may be decent at finding talent but it seems that is all. Maybe he should just be a scout for the team and not the GM
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#4

I’ve already let my feelings be known on this subject. Caldwell should be nervous, but not fired. Marrone, on the other hand, is doing a poor job of marshaling the talent he has been given. Some folks on here are saying that our D will gel and other issues should be cleaned up after the first game. No, that’s not how it works in the highest tier. This is the big leagues. These issues should have been worked out long before we hit the field. The fact that some of our players believe they can act like petulant children indicates to me that Marrone is not the disciplinarian he needs to be. If he hasn’t figured that out by now, he never will. Furthermore, any attempts by him to instill discipline will be accepted as thin and insincere.

Is there a chance Marrone can redeem himself? Only if he doubles down on discipline and remains unblinking. Using excuses, such as, ‘well, we don’t know what was said out there’ doesn’t cut it and is a sorry attempt at diversion from his own failure. On that same token, he should also inform Wash to pull his head out of his backside or he’ll be looking for another job by bye week.
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#5
(This post was last modified: 09-10-2019, 09:56 AM by D-Money.)

1
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#6

It’s not an either/or proposition as you are presenting. Caldwell has made some good picks. He has done fairly well finding the front line talent. Where he has swung and missed is on depth. Injuries kill us because we have no depth. Is some of that on coaching? Yes. But my judgement is that it lies more with talent or lack thereof.


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#7

If this season goes awry... I don't see how they don't kinda clean house honestly.

Lots of old faces and old minds running the show.

I'm not personally calling for any firings after 1 week... but if we win less than 7 games this year (I say 7 instead of 10 due to Foles injury, expectations were much higher) guys like TC and Marrone gotta go.
And if thats the case, Caldwell should go too... just get fresh faces and ideas and minds in here.

That all being said... I don't think it is time to hand out pink slips yet.
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#8

I have to believe that the game is a direct result of being out-coached and lack of preseason participation. Playing zone I believe is more difficult than man to man, and the lack of preseason gameplay was a direct result of the secondary poor play Sunday. Khan put pressure on the head coach to come up with a plan to prevent injuries Marrone did just that. Hine sight is twenty-twenty but Marrone himself was concerned with the outcome of not playing starters in the preseason, turns out his concern was validated. One issue that lands directly in Dougs lap are the constant immature penalties that seem to continue year after year. Its time for Marrone to put a stop to the constant trash talk that not only is on every play but to see Jalen standing over a receiver after a nine-yard gain jawing and acting like he stops the player for a loss is just immature and needs to stop. It was the secondary that lost this game and they need to held accountable for it, If they don't show up next weed we will see a repeat of game one. It is getting tiring to support a team that constantly underperforms and goes through coaches year after year and fail to change the team results. I believe we have the players on both sides of the ball to win games but once again we get our butts kicked at home. I'm not ready to call for Marrone's head until I see how the season pans out. If the team gets back on track and starts winning then I will chalk it up to a very poor preseason strategy and poor coaching by Todd Wash who had no answer for Andy's offensive. He might be looking over his shoulder if it continues because his replacement is on the coaching staff. One thing I know for sure after watching the Texans game, if there is not a complete turnaround on the defense we will start the season 0-2 with the tacks licking their chops in anticipation of Thursday nights game.
Just to clarify I do not blame Caldwell.
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#9

The only problem I have with Caldwell is he's shown he can't evaluate QB talent.

Everything else is fine, he'd make a good head of scouting sort, but he picked a bad QB and repeatedly passed on great ones. I honestly think most people could do 80-90% of the work that Caldwell has done so far, and the difference between someone like him and someone that can recognize QB talent is, in my mind, what justifies the millions of dollars GM's get paid.

If he can't recognize talent at the most important position then he's useless.
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#10

(09-10-2019, 10:18 AM)Kane Wrote: If this season goes awry... I don't see how they don't kinda clean house honestly.

Lots of old faces and old minds running the show.

I'm not personally calling for any firings after 1 week... but if we win less than 7 games this year (I say 7 instead of 10 due to Foles injury, expectations were much higher) guys like TC and Marrone gotta go.
And if thats the case, Caldwell should go too... just get fresh faces and ideas and minds in here.

That all being said... I don't think it is time to hand out pink slips yet.
If by midseason the team continues its poor play you just might see TC take over the head coaching job and Dom Capers elevated to defensive coach.  That may not be a bad thing to see just what they bring to the game before a complete revamping of the coaching staff.
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#11

I can see the Houston playbook for our game now. Lots of esoteric jargon and diagrams with bolded print at the bottom:

Call the defender’s mother a [BLEEP]. That will get us at least 10 more yards.
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#12
(This post was last modified: 09-10-2019, 10:49 AM by HURRICANE!!!.)

I don't think people place enough importance on the fact that we seriously lack experience (including playing together) at the LB and Safety positions, which was further exacerbated by Myles Jack getting ejected.  We're going to see a lot of blown coverage's and finger pointing throughout the year.  I noted this on another thread last month.
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#13

(09-10-2019, 10:49 AM)HURRICANE!!! Wrote: I don't think people place enough importance on the fact that we seriously lack experience (including playing together) at the LB and Safety positions, which was further exacerbated by Myles Jack getting ejected.  We're going to see a lot of blown coverage's and finger pointing throughout the year.  I noted this on another thread last month.

A good point. Losing Posluszny arms to have hurt the defense I'm some ways. The understanding of scheme is probably one of them.
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#14

(09-10-2019, 10:37 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: I can see the Houston playbook for our game now. Lots of esoteric jargon and diagrams with bolded print at the bottom:

Call the defender’s mother a [BLEEP]. That will get us at least 10 more yards.

This is exactly what they're doing and all teams will until we can compose ourselves.

The team hadn't played together in a game yet. O gave us a chance, D let us down. There's still hope, we got probably the best offence in the league out the gate. If we can get 6 sacks or more on Watson like the saints did we've got a shot.
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#15

(09-10-2019, 10:33 AM)SeldomRite Wrote: The only problem I have with Caldwell is he's shown he can't evaluate QB talent.

Everything else is fine, he'd make a good head of scouting sort, but he picked a bad QB and repeatedly passed on great ones. I honestly think most people could do 80-90% of the work that Caldwell has done so far, and the difference between someone like him and someone that can recognize QB talent is, in my mind, what justifies the millions of dollars GM's get paid.

If he can't recognize talent at the most important position then he's useless.

We get it, you love Kap. You don't have to keep pounding that drum every other post.
I'm condescending. That means I talk down to you.
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#16

Can’t we just stick to Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs?
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#17

(09-10-2019, 11:26 AM)hb1148 Wrote:
(09-10-2019, 10:33 AM)SeldomRite Wrote: The only problem I have with Caldwell is he's shown he can't evaluate QB talent.

Everything else is fine, he'd make a good head of scouting sort, but he picked a bad QB and repeatedly passed on great ones. I honestly think most people could do 80-90% of the work that Caldwell has done so far, and the difference between someone like him and someone that can recognize QB talent is, in my mind, what justifies the millions of dollars GM's get paid.

If he can't recognize talent at the most important position then he's useless.

We get it, you love Kap. You don't have to keep pounding that drum every other post.

Never change.  Big Grin
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#18

My 2 cents. We have a HC that is more or less average at best. Same goes for the OC and DC. The team lacks discipline and play design is unimaginative. It seems like they appear to think that if a player has talent, that alone will win but the fact is the OC and DC have to be just as talented as the players they coach. I don't see it. The players look uninspired and their play on the field reflects their coaching leadership.
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#19

This team has on the field talent without much on the field leadership.
“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

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#20

(09-10-2019, 09:49 AM)D-Money Wrote: The issue is everything else that came with it. He gor Allen Robinson and found Allen Hurns our first 1k WRs since Jimmy and McCardell. They were one of the good points of the team then you let them go and we end up with Lee, Moncrief and Cole who did not produce. If they would have guaranteed ARs contract or gave exactly what the Bears gave, he would have stayed. So that is a poor decision under his watch.
Same thing goes for the team after we make it to the AFC conference game, 1st of all we should have won the game but he allowed the coaches to make the decisions they made, even though we were winning, all we had to do what make a few adjustments. He is not the coach but the coaches that he brought in made us miss out on the main reason most of the players play, to get to the Super Bowl, something we have never done before. These coaches have been doing the same thing last year and from the start of what we can see this year. If you are the GM, you have to make the decision it lies on you, if you allow these people to still be here.

My next issue relates to the last, we had just got got the Conference championship, the FO office being arrogant, would not bring back or work something with Poz causing him to retire. As it stands right now, if we had Poz on the field for depth and leadership it would help and I don't think we have as many discipline issues with the defense, Myles Jack and Telvin may still be here.
Also, no reason to not bring back Marcedes for leadership. The coach staff got big headed and thought they could replace players but did not understand that effect it would cause, basically what we are going thru right now.

Giving Bortles that contract rather making him earn it, knowing that he is always up and down, then just letting him walk.

Giving Foles extra money just to make sure he fills respected.
He has some decent drafts but overall when you look at it. We've only had 1 winning season with him which is looking like a fluke for now.  How long does a GM get? He is not making the necessary changes. He allows them to go on for long on before doing something. Even with Bradley, Bradley was a great person and everyone could see but it wasn't bringing in wins. He should have been fired the year before he was.

So its not necessarily him but the issues that everyone sees caused by the staff that he brought in and not addressing the issue but just letting it linger on. He may be decent at finding talent but it seems that is all. Maybe he should just be a scout for the team and not the GM

One of the more unreasonable arguements against Caldwell I've read on this board.
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