(09-11-2019, 09:57 PM)LMD Wrote:

(09-11-2019, 08:24 PM)Bullseye Wrote: (Numbering added)

For the purposes of this post, I do not disparage the above referenced players as a general proposition.  All (or at least most) of those players had decent to good careers overall and were assets to their respective teams while in their primes.  In fact, I point out that Caldwell himself admitted to underestimating the value of experience when he first began to shape the roster.  That said, those players at that stage in their careers were of little value to the Jaguars at that stage in the team's development.  First off, their presence on the team in 2012 did nothing to avoid a league worst 2-14 record.  While perhaps they could have been key contributors on more talent laden rosters, surrounded by sub par talent, their impact was mitigated.  At that stage of their careers, they couldn't even sensibly be considered building blocks upon which the new roster could be constructed.  Rashean Mathis was drafted in 2003 and by the time Caldwell arrived, was going into his ELEVENTH season at age 33.  There were already conversations beyond the whispering stage that Mathis was well past his prime.  Darryl Smith and Greg Jones were drafted the following year and were going into their tenth seasons, ages 31 and 32 respectively.  Dawan Landry was going into his EIGHTH year and was 31 when he left after one year with us.  Mosley was 30 by 2013.  Mincey was 30 as of 2013, while Jennings was a 28 year old RB (admittedly without a lot of mileage).  You also referenced Eugene Monroe, who was 26 years old when traded by the team in 2013.  You don't undergo a comprehensive roster rebuild while retaining players that age (26 year old Monroe excepted).  At most, retaining all of those guys would have resulted in another win or two per season, tops, while potentially lowering our draft position and missing out on guys like Ramsey, Jack, Ngakoue, Allen Robinson and Cam Robinson.   Furthermore, each and every one of those guys you listed were out of the league before the 2017 season, so it isn't as if keeping those players was the difference between us winning the AFCCG or not that year.  Their presence would not have turned those teams around, (leaving us still firmly into the "suck mightily" category), leaving us in a worse position to improve the roster through the draft, and potentially taking snaps away from younger players who could develop.

2.  Yes, Caldwell had a hand in making the roster worse before making it better.  That's typically what happens when you try to rebuild a roster that produced the worst record in the league.  When Jimmy Johnson took over Dallas, he took over a team that finished 3-13 in 1988, and finished 1-15 in 1989.  That year, he jettisoned older vets like Steve Pelleur, Randy White, traded away Herschel Walker, and phased out Ed Jones.  Without question, Johnson made the roster better after getting rid of vets who might have contributed to another win.  Now Caldwell didn't have the wild success that Johnson did, but without question, the roster now is dramatically better than it was when he took over.  He drafted/signed its first 1000 yard receivers since Smith and McCardell were brought aboard in the MID 1990s!!! He drafted  Ngakoue the team's first double digit sacker since Bobby McCray in 2004, and first truly productive DE since Brackens in 1996.  He drafted the team's first Pro Bowler at OLB in Telvin Smith since Kevin Hardy was drafted in 1996.  He drafted Jalen Ramsey the team's first Pro bowl CB since Rashean Mathis in 2003, and the teams first All Pro DB.

3.  You're blaming him for improving the roster to the point where the team has made a Super Bowl run, with several players earning post season honors, second contracts with the team, and fans wishing several other players are/were treated similarly, actually signing productive free agents like Campbell, Jackson, Bouye and Parnell, and as a result, having less cap money?  Seriously?

I'm getting rid of your numbers for this post, because they're silly... No, I'm just kidding. I think all the points run together, so they don't really need to be further distinguished anymore. Thus, I'll just address them as one.  

To start: I don't want to say either of us have shifted the goal posts, because I don't think we did. But I think you're in TIAA Bank Field and I'm in CenturyLink Field (for purposes of continuing the metaphor).

The initial post said Caldwell gutted the roster of talent before taking over and you asked how he could gut the roster of talent from a 2-14 team. I never said, nor would I ever try arguing, that the players cut could, or should, have been building blocks. Nor would I try arguing that they should have been on the team for any period of years, especially as late as 2017. Now, with those defensive players, plus a few upgrades on offense, perhaps the team doesn't look as awful as it did in 2013. Are they superbowl contenders with all those guys retained? Almost certainly not. But there was enough talent, which Caldwell got rid of, to lead the Jags to mediocrity.

The argument was simply that you can't say Caldwell was handed such a poor hand that we're just going to write off his first couple of years, when he actively got rid of the half-decent players on the team upon starting. His hands are all over those first years because it was his strategy: he cleared the books and kept salaries down so he could draft high and make big FA splashes. I, personally, didn't (and still don't) have much issue with that strategy (though, my emotional side was pretty hurt by the Greg Jones; Mathis; and Smith decisions).

The issue arises when you look at the fact that he basically played GM with the salary cap turned off, and consistent top draft pick spots, and all he got for it was one loss in the AFCCG and 5 losing seasons. Now that his endless cap room has ended, his decisions are coming under an enlarged microscope (and rightfully so): bad moves can't simply be covered by big free agent signings (sure he tried covering Bortles--both the initial drafting and the extension--with Foles this last offseason, but that required significant cuts [and may still require more] just to account for that move alone. Plus he still has to deal with trying to re-sign Yan and Ramsey. In comparison, when he had endless cap room he masked the Gratz and Colvin [as a starting outside corner] misses with Bouye; the Cyprien miss with Church; the Josh Evans and Winston Guy fiasco with Gipson; the Zane Beadles miss with Andrew Norwell; and the [ultimately net-zero] Julius Thomas to ASJ move, among others.).

Caldwell's not infallible and I'm, admittedly, a little tired of him continuing to get a free pass for those first few years where he gutted the roster. Had he led the team to a 76'ers like resurgence after his tanking, it'd be one thing. But he didn't: he led the team to one non-losing season with all the resources any GM could ever hope for. And now we're supposed to continue acting as though he's an infallible savior who cannot be questioned because of how bad Gene Smith was--even if Caldwell actively got rid of the few decent players Smith left on the team. "In Gene we trust" taught us nothing, I guess...

For all that, does this mean I want Caldwell gone? No. I lay most of the blame on Marrone for the team underperforming. But I am getting worried about Caldwell's decision-making now that he doesn't have a limitless salary cap. And I don't think it's "cognitive dissonance" to say "Marrone's not a great coach, and this team should be better, but simultaneously Caldwell is revealing a pattern of questionable decision making, which seems to be leading straight to continued basement dwelling. So maybe we need to start looking, and really looking, at his performance before it gets too late..."

Let me say I don't think Caldwell is "infallible" or completely blameless for the early results.  I just don't think getting rid of all of that older talent from the team is what gives him culpability.  I think he has three reasons he bears some responsibility for those early days.

1.  Hiring Gus Bradley-'Nuff said
2.  Missing on Bortles-yeah, he needed to take a QB, and none were there to be had in '13.  But Bortles wasn't the answer.
3.  Early horrible free agent signings like Zane Beadles, Toby Gerhart, and Jared Odrick.

Those are the reasons to trash his early performances here, IMO.

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